Good Speed with a KC Warford

[Model T Ron]

For starters I am by no means wanting to know your top end speed rather looking to see what speed people drive with a KC Warford in overdrive. I find that I need to be going over 35 on relatively flat road to use the Overdrive. Because of this I find myself going between Warford 2 and Warford 3 as i like to drive 30 to 38 for the most part.

Thanks
Ron

[speedytinc]

You dont mention T or TT. by those speeds TT?

[Allan]

Ron, I have a KC Warford in my extended chassis wooden shooting brake. It has a heavy, solid timber body. Even with a high compression head, the overdrive gear is only usable on the flat and with no head wind.With these conditions it is quite happy at 35-40 MPH, but I am always ready to shift into second gear, [normal T top gear]

Allan from down under.

[Model T Ron]

My car is a 1915 Touring with the following:

KC Warford
Electric Fuel Pump
Disk Brakes
HC Head
Distributor 12 v system
12v Alternator

I am still fairly new only logging a few hundred miles but I did have my car up to 47 and it was pulling hard but I did not have nerve to go faster. I tend to drive 30 to 38 but I think I may need to up it to 40 or so to use the KC Warford in high gear. I do have some small hills in my area and 3rd is just to high to pull them at anything less than 35. For the most part I just drive in 2nd as I am very comfortable around 35.

Is 40 to 45mph pushing the Model T's capability for normal driving?

Ron

[Nunsio1]

I agree with the other opinion’s. My vehicle is comfortable at 35 - 38 mph, over drive after 35 mph. I have standard gearing, aluminum pistons, original high head, w/12 volt distributor ignition.
John
Oscoda Michigan

[speedytinc]

My car is a 1915 Touring with the following:

KC Warford
Electric Fuel Pump
Disk Brakes
HC Head
Distributor 12 v system
12v Alternator

I am still fairly new only logging a few hundred miles but I did have my car up to 47 and it was pulling hard but I did not have nerve to go faster. I tend to drive 30 to 38 but I think I may need to up it to 40 or so to use the KC Warford in high gear. I do have some small hills in my area and 3rd is just to high to pull them at anything less than 35. For the most part I just drive in 2nd as I am very comfortable around 35.

Is 40 to 45mph pushing the Model T's capability for normal driving?

Ron

These numbers are blowing my mind! Other posts have to be TT's. 4:1 gears here?
A stock T, 3.66 gears (no extra rux or transmission )should EASILY cruse all day on flat ground @ 45. An old friend had a worn out 22 roadster that would run the freeway happy @ 50-55. Cherry red manifold. I followed another member cruising the freeway @ 55. Again a good, but stock T. He claimed it had a 10T pinion!
Second gear being direct @ 35 is a slow cruise. 40 in overdrive? You gotta be seriously lugging your motor & way out of your power band. That warford was a huge waste of money. A descent motor with a warford should be easily running 60. If you have the HP to get there. Sounds like it,But something is off here.
Too many guys try to run a rux with 3:1's & find they dont have the Horses to pull it. 3:1 ratio are a step back if not coupled with some or a package of power upgrades.

[Model T Ron]

I am sorry for maybe not being clear in my question. I have only put a few hundred miles on my 1915 Touring but I have found a comfort level with the cars at 30 to 38. As new guy I could be just not familiar with the Model T's capability at higher speeds with a Warford. I did take it up to 47 in overdrive but the car seemed top heavy and my comfort factor slipped away as I did not want to be driving at an unsafe speed. As for the power I have in overdrive it seems faster than my stock Model A and I have a feeling it could have been able to do 60 but I did not want to find out.

My car appears to be in very good mechanical shape and I think I am going to try the 40 to 45 mph range. I did not buy my Model T for speed but with the Warford I wanted to see what people typically drive in Overdrive. With dish brakes I am not concerned with the T's stopping ability but I do not want to flip over doing 60 down thee road.

[speedytinc]

I am sorry for maybe not being clear in my question. I have only put a few hundred miles on my 1915 Touring but I have found a comfort level with the cars at 30 to 38. As new guy I could be just not familiar with the Model T's capability at higher speeds with a Warford. I did take it up to 47 in overdrive but the car seemed top heavy and my comfort factor slipped away as I did not want to be driving at an unsafe speed. As for the power I have in overdrive it seems faster than my stock Model A and I have a feeling it could have been able to do 60 but I did not want to find out.

My car appears to be in very good mechanical shape and I think I am going to try the 40 to 45 mph range. I did not buy my Model T for speed but with the Warford I wanted to see what people typically drive in Overdrive. With dish brakes I am not concerned with the T's stopping ability but I do not want to flip over doing 60 down thee road.

Makes more sense. One factor in a comfortable @ speed is a tight & correctly spec'ed front end. I found changing the steering ratio to 5:1 & adding a larger steering wheel a HUGE improvement to drive ability on my 14. The joys of a tight front end cant be overstated. Sounds like your power plant is up to snuff for the gears. Dont be afraid to wind her up. I think more damage is caused by lugging.

[Scott_Conger]

So, now that you can make your T go 40-45MPH, ask yourself: when my tire comes off the rim and passes me, do I want to be doing 32MPH or 45MPH?

Once you drive enough and this happens to you, you'll find that the car can be a handful at 30 or so. Do it at 45 on a rear tire and panic and hit those big beautiful disk brakes and we'll all be asking which charity to donate to.

You need to rethink your normal cruising speed. It's a Model T.

[Model T Ron]

What is the standard steering ratio? You mentioned changing it to a 5 to 1 and adding a larger steering wheel.....I am interested in looking more into this. Are the parts available at Lang's? I am pretty sure my steering is stock and it takes very little movement in the steering wheel to get the car turning......much less movement than what i see in my 29 Model A. My front end is tight and I do not see need to make changes but this still does not address the feeling of being top heavy. Is this just my perception or is the T safe to drive at 55?

Not looking to drive my T like a race car but it would be nice to not hold traffic up at 35 to 38. I have a feeling it's my lack of driving experience as this is my first Model T and I am not that far away from just getting comfortable driving the non standard controls that a T has. Baby steps for now so I will get a little out of my comfort zone and push it to 40 45 for the next few hundred miles.

By the way I added a GPS Speedometer/ odometer and what a cost effective way to go.....$49 on e-bay new.

[Norman Kling]

Several things to consider:
You must drive at a speed comfortable to you and on the roads less congested.
If you have wood wheels, especially the older ones with wood felloes, you need to be sure the wheels are tight every time you drive the car.
The car tends to be top heavy so need to make corners at a slow speed.
The tires are narrow, so they have less surface contact for both the steering and the brakes.
Rear wheel brakes are only as good as you can lock up the wheels and go into a skid. So even more powerful brakes are limited in the ability to stop, and if you install front wheel brakes, you need to beef up the front axle because of tendency to go to negative castor or pull to one side if one side pulls harder than the other.
The car can go faster on level straight road but be careful on winding roads or downhill.
Pull over to let others pass when safe to do so and be careful about your following distance if in stop and go traffic or behind slower vehicles.
Anyway, you are the only one who can really decide how fast YOU think it is safe to drive the T. It needs to be fast enough not to lug the engine for the gear you select, but not so fast as to be unsafe to drive.
Norm

[TXGOAT2]

Your entire running gear, including wheels, tires, and all related hardware, needs to be tight and in good order. Tire inflation pressure is critical. Your steering assembly needs to be both tight and correctly aligned. I believe that changing to 5:1 steering gears and a 17" steering wheel is a good idea. I don't think driving a touring car with the top up over about 40 MPH is a good idea. I would not want to drive any Model T over about 30 MPH on day with gusty winds or on bad roads. My T is a '27 roadster with Ford wire wheels and balloon tires. It's very stable at 50 MPH. It has 5:1 steering and a 17" steering wheel, and it also has hydraulic shocks front and rear, which no doubt improve stability. Being a '26-'27 car, the chassis rides around 2" lower than the earlier cars, which further improves stability. Brakes and accident avoidance capability are better than the earlier cars, but still marginal. The brakes can lock the rear wheels, but that doesn't do much to stop the car quickly. A stock or near stock Model T in good order will be most enjoyable to drive at speeds in the 30-35 MPH range in light traffic.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I am still fairly new only logging a few hundred miles but I did have my car up to 47 and it was pulling hard but I did not have nerve to go faster. I tend to drive 30 to 38 but I think I may need to up it to 40 or so to use the KC Warford in high gear. I do have some small hills in my area and 3rd is just to high to pull them at anything less than 35. For the most part I just drive in 2nd as I am very comfortable around 35.

Is 40 to 45mph pushing the Model T's capability for normal driving?

Ron

These numbers are blowing my mind! Other posts have to be TT's. 4:1 gears here?
A stock T, 3.66 gears (no extra rux or transmission )should EASILY cruse all day on flat ground @ 45. An old friend had a worn out 22 roadster that would run the freeway happy @ 50-55. Cherry red manifold. I followed another member cruising the freeway @ 55. Again a good, but stock T. He claimed it had a 10T pinion!
Second gear being direct @ 35 is a slow cruise. 40 in overdrive? You gotta be seriously lugging your motor & way out of your power band. That warford was a huge waste of money. A descent motor with a warford should be easily running 60. If you have the HP to get there. Sounds like it,But something is off here.
Too many guys try to run a rux with 3:1's & find they dont have the Horses to pull it. 3:1 ratio are a step back if not coupled with some or a package of power upgrades.

John,

I think you'll find that most T drivers do about the same speeds as Ron. Just because a T can do 50-55, it does not mean that we want to. I tend to be one of the "faster" drivers in my local club and I do about 40+, (Tim J. can back me up there )

[Model T Ron]

Jerry
I think I am on the same page as you are. I am sure my car will do 55 but I am not willing to go that fast in a 106 year old car. It took me about a month of driving on a back road just to get familiar with the controls and drive without thinking about what to do next. I purchased my car with a lot of upgrades and on a safe rode I can see using the KC Warfors in overdrive at 40 maybe 45 but I do not think I want to go faster than that.

I have a Mitchel overdrive in my 29 Model A and it will do 70 but I tend to not do more than 50 to 55. I purchased my 15 T and 29 A to enjoy them and not get seriously injured in them

Ron

[TXGOAT2]

Standard steering ratio up to about 1925 was 4:1. 5:1 is better all around. Parts are available to make the change. I don't know what, if any, modifications would be necessary to install the later gears and 17" steering wheel. DO NOT mix 4:1 and 5:1 gears!

[speedytinc]

I dont mean to imply anybody should drive faster than they are comfortable or their equipment is capable of. I am throwing normal capability #'s as requested.
A stock motor is well governed. It wont pull tall gears without objecting. Try starting out in hi gear a few times. As the HP rises, so does the motors ability to damage/destroy itself if not operated correctly. This 15 in question sounds capable. Driving 38 mph in overdrive is lugging the engine. This breaks cranks.

Standard steering ratio is 4:1. This with a small steering wheel makes for a less controllable feel the faster you go.

[Model T Ron]

So at what speed should one use the Warford Overdrive in?

[RajoRacer]

On the freeway.

[walber]

A fundamentally stock Model T gains little from the Warford overdrive gear. A well built and tuned Model T with stock rear gears should be able to run 45 to 50 on a flat road without a problem. That doesn't mean that would be safe or prudent - you still have modest (at best) brakes, potentially twitchy steering and no shocks. Sudden turns and stops are problematic. T's with significantly more power may be glad to have the overdrive but only if the rest of the vehicle has been set up to handle the speed safely. For a stock T, I'd be looking to sell or trade the Warford and replace it with a Ruckstell to get that long needed 2nd gear.

[Model T Ron]

I have found that I need to be going at least 35 to use my Warford overdrive. Are you saying I should not go into overdrive at anything under 45?

[speedytinc]

I have found that I need to be going at least 35 to use my Warford overdrive. Are you saying I should not go into overdrive at anything under 45?

Assuming stock gears 3:66 Do you know for sure? Could you have 4:1's?
35 way too slow for OD. Thats on the low end of direct. Thats crank straining/breaking speed in OD. You got plenty of motor to flatten most hills in direct. I doubt you "need" underdrive. 55-60 freeway for OD. Variations for load.
45 would be a minimum. @ that, an intentional motor conserving economy cruise on long flat roads.
Your motor has the bones. Could there be some other issues holding your motor back, like bad carburation, points?

If your T doesnt feel comfortable in these speed ranges, you have front end/chassis issues that can be corrected or greatly improved.

[TXGOAT2]

What is the OD ratio with a KC Warford? A stock Model T engine runs about 1800 RPM at 45 MPH. That's about as fast as a T engine in top condition needs to run, unless it's modified. I would expect to find that a stock Model T touring car would require about 18 to 20 horsepower to maintain 45 MPH on a smooth level road with no wind, and probably more than that with the top up, no side curtains, and the windshield closed.

[Model T Ron]

The above comments are not making any sense to me.....you shift into second at a very low speed and take that all the ay to 45 to shift into Warford Overdrove???? Did you own a Warford or did you ever drive a car with a KC Warford?

[Model T Ron]

KC Warford Transmission with 3.63 rear end

MPH Engine RPM in 2nd Engine RPM in 3rd (Overdrive)
5 206 171
10 411 341
15 617 512
20 822 6 82
25 1028 853
30 1234 1024
35 1439 1194
40 1645 1365
45 1850 1535
50 2056 1706
55 2262 1877
60 2467 2047
65 2673 2218


1800 RPM is considered to be RED LINE. Red line on your engine will depend on components you have installed.
* We DO NOT recommend the use of a 3:1 hign speed ring & pinion gear unless you have both a very
light weight car and a very strong engine with a high compression head.

[TXGOAT2]

Generally, you would drive your car in high gear with the Warford in direct at road speeds unless you are going over 40 MPH or so on a near-level road with no significant headwind. It appears that the Warford overdrive is around 20%. You can run the car in high/overdrive any time it can maintain speed, but if it begins to slow down due to a grade, headwind, etc, you will need to downshift to direct or underdrive as necessary. You have to use the various Warford speeds together with the Ford transmission to match the engine's capabilities to road conditions. In hilly terrain, the Warford underdrive gear can be very useful. You will have to become familiar with the various gear combinations available and become used to shifting the transmissions without grinding gears. Then you can select whichever of the 6 forward speeds available that best suits your desired speed and the road conditions. If my math is correct, running a stock Model T in high with a Warford in overdrive gives an overall gear ratio of just under 3 to 1. That's a tall ratio, and only useful at higher road speeds. Exactly when to shift depends on the road conditions of the moment and what you want the car to do, just as with any transmission. There is no set speed at which any particular gear is appropriate.

[Model T Ron]

From the RPM Chart I posted above it makes sense to me why my car if fine with 35 or higher on flat ground. I have no idea what HP my engine is making but it's not not the stock 20. I have a HC Head modern distributor and I know the engine was rebuilt but to what spec I do not know. If I has to guess I would say my engine is between 30 and 35 HP. My 1915 Touring gets up to speed faster than my 1929 Model A.

[speedytinc]

The above comments are not making any sense to me.....you shift into second at a very low speed and take that all the ay to 45 to shift into Warford Overdrove???? Did you own a Warford or did you ever drive a car with a KC Warford?

Have you confirmed your rear end gear ratio?
That would be in direct = 2nd gear. I have set KC's up. I have driven & drive a customers centerdoor. Stock gearing. Warm motor. Runs the freeway @ 65. Normal driving. Same as a rux. A warford is equivalent to a rux, but with an additional lower gear.
Most of my T's run ruxtell's with 3:1 gears.(this would be considered an OD gear.) Your final gearing is 3.02 They also all have warmed motors. My direct, (in rux) is a bit lower 3.75 compared to your 3.63. My rux & your KC are =. IF, IF, your axle is 3:63(stock)

[speedytinc]

KC Warford Transmission with 3.63 rear end

MPH Engine RPM in 2nd Engine RPM in 3rd (Overdrive)
5 206 171
10 411 341
15 617 512
20 822 6 82
25 1028 853
30 1234 1024
35 1439 1194
40 1645 1365
45 1850 1535
50 2056 1706
55 2262 1877
60 2467 2047
65 2673 2218


1800 RPM is considered to be RED LINE. Red line on your engine will depend on components you have installed.
* We DO NOT recommend the use of a 3:1 hign speed ring & pinion gear unless you have both a very
light weight car and a very strong engine with a high compression head.

YOUR motor is not red line @ 1800. A stock motors power curve drops off here. 45mph @ 1800rpm. This chart fits exactly with what I am saying. 55-60 for freeways.(OD) & 45-50 direct. The Montana 500 runners average 55 during a race. Average over 500, miles. Down hill 75!!. Dont try this @ home. All stock motors & gearing. Maybe there are other issues, like balance?

[TXGOAT2]

I have never stayed at a Hampton Inn, but I do have a Mack B-61 with triplex.

[Model T Ron]

I think I have a 3.63 but to be honest I have not confirmed it. As for driving on the freeway that's not an option for for my T or for that matter my A. In North Carolina you get run over if your doing 75 and going with the flow of traffic at 80. I have only driven about 200 miles or so and 150 since I put a GPS speedometer in the T. Most of my driving has been around 35 r with very limited use of the Overdrive over 35....my confidence in my driving ability is going up and I am willing to push it to 40 ora little more so that I can use the overdrive. A few months back I did get it up to 47 in overdrive and the engine was pulling strong but I got an increased feeling of being top heavy and backed off...... I wish I had more information on the modifications made to my 1915 touring but the man who set it up is currently in a nursing home. I can say it's a very good runner and starts on the first or second pull every time......something i cannot say about my lawn equipment lol

Also I am at a disadvantage of not knowing how a stock T drives as my car is the only Model T I have driven.

[speedytinc]

I think I have a 3.63 but to be honest I have not confirmed it. As for driving on the freeway that's not an option for for my T or for that matter my A. In North Carolina you get run over if your doing 75 and going with the flow of traffic at 80. I have only driven about 200 miles or so and 150 since I put a GPS speedometer in the T. Most of my driving has been around 35 r with very limited use of the Overdrive over 35....my confidence in my driving ability is going up and I am willing to push it to 40 ora little more so that I can use the overdrive. A few months back I did get it up to 47 in overdrive and the engine was pulling strong but I got an increased feeling of being top heavy and backed off...... I wish I had more information on the modifications made to my 1915 touring but the man who set it up is currently in a nursing home. I can say it's a very good runner and starts on the first or second pull every time......something i cannot say about my lawn equipment lol

Also I am at a disadvantage of not knowing how a stock T drives as my car is the only Model T I have driven.

Speed #'s & "freeway" are for reference. Drive speeds you are comfortable with. Dont be afraid to wind it up a little.

You can easily check your gear ratio. Pull the spark plugs. Mark 1 tire. On flat ground, count the # of turns of the hand crank to revolve that wheel 1 revolution. 3.6 or 4. If 4, you can modify your speed table accordingly. The builder could have geared for parades as well as regular driving.

Good luck. Sounds like you own a real sweet T.

[Model T Ron]

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[Chuck Regan]

Ron, I have a ‘26 RPU with stock engine (iron pistons, coils, 6 volt) and a KC Warford. With no speedo or tach, I don’t worry about MPH or RPM. I listen to my engine and use my gears and spark lever to keep it in the sweet spot.
Enjoy your car - don’t overthink the numbers.

[TXGOAT2]

Be sure that your chassis is in top shape, including wheels. Front end steering angles are critical to safe handling. Motor mounts can affect handling. Ford Ts have a very simple running gear, but EVERY part must be in good order for the car to perform as it should. I believe you would find your car much more enjoyable to drive if you convert to 5:1 steering gears and a 17" steering wheel.

[Model T Ron]

Not sure how to make this larger but this is my 1915 Touring

[Model T Ron]

Ron, I have a ‘26 RPU with stock engine (iron pistons, coils, 6 volt) and a KC Warford. With no speedo or tach, I don’t worry about MPH or RPM. I listen to my engine and use my gears and spark lever to keep it in the sweet spot.
Enjoy your car - don’t overthink the numbers.

Thanks Chuck.....sometimes the engineer in me overthinks things

[TXGOAT2]

Installation and maintenence tips for KC Warford: [Search domain texastparts.com] www.texastparts.com › mm5 › manuals › WarfordInst.pdf

[speedytinc]

Not sure how to make this larger but this is my 1915 Touring

Confirmed +. Really sweet T. Congratulations.