Glass for 1927 Coupe

[BLB27]

Today I took the glass for the windshield, doors, quarter panels, and rear window to the local glass shop. I will replace them with tempered glass. They measured the glass. It measured 1/4" for every piece except the quarter panel pieces which measured 3/16".

Is that normal or an odd situation? They can provide both thicknesses.

[Mark Nunn]

I hope you will use laminated glass for the windshield.

[Dropacent]

Can’t speak to the thickness, but you MUST use laminated glass in the windshield……. IMHO , it’ll be much cheaper and better to use laminated glass in the rest of the windows, too. Tell them not to imprint the pieces, also.

[George Hand]

Tim, Why would you recommend the replacement windows not be imprinted? My '26 Tudor we tried several test to see if the windshield was laminated or not. When we could not tell we removed the assembly & took it to a glass shop only to find out that it was laminated. George

[browning]

Is it is or is it aint, I have a '26 and a '27 coupe in very good condition but am concerned about the window glass. I would like to sell one and drive the other but need to know about the safety of the glass in both. I have read all I can find to determine whether either car has tempered or laminated glass from the factory. Ironically, tapping on the glass in both cars returns exactly the same result. The windshield, quarter windows and rear window return a dull thud when tapped with a coin while the door glass rings with a much higher pitch. When toe door glass is wound down, there is no lamination seam. Both cars appear to be stock. Any production details on any safety glass in the later cars?

[Dropacent]

It’s just a personal thing, I don’t like seeing the imprints on the glass on antique cars. Lots of old car folks are like that. Laminated glass is easy to tell if you can see the raw edge, such as in a roll up window. Otherwise, hold a candle or match up to it, two reflections is safety( laminated ) glass. One reflection, plate or tempered glass ( one thickness). Another way is to hit it with a hammer. If it shatters in a million pieces, that’s tempered . If it breaks and severs an artery, that’s Henry’s plate glass. If it breaks but is held together with the plastic inner layer, you are dumber than I look!

[BLB27]

Tim, What is "imprinted" (maybe a dumb question!).

The glass shop told me that laminated glass is much more expensive than tempered glass.

[TXGOAT2]

Last I heard, you cannot cut tempered glass in the field. Glass shops either buy and install curved, laminated windshields, or purchase and install (usually curved) tempered backlights and side windows on vehicles originally so equipped. Model Ts originally had plate glass all around. If you replace any glass in a Model T, specify laminated safety glass. Best to replace ALL of it. Many states will not allow a car with plate glass on the road, and it is illegal in most places to install plate glass in a windshield. Tempered glass started showing up in rear windows (backlights) in the late 1940s. Laminated safety glass began appearing in the late 1920s. Tempered side windows and vent windows appeared in the 1960s. As far as I know, no civilian vehicles, old or new, ever had tempered glass windshields. A good glass shop can cut, finish,and install flat safety glass in about any car ever made that originally had flat glass. Clear or tinted glass is available, as is low UV glass that helps preserve upholstery in closed cars. You may need to provide patterns for antique cars. You will probably need to provide rubber gaskets and glass setting tape, unless you can find a good specialty shop. The Safelite guy probably doesn't have supplies for century old applications.

[Dropacent]

It certainly could be different in your area. Tempered glass to a specific pattern around these parts has to be special ordered. AND expensive. Laminated glass (safety glass ) is pretty cheap and if you know what you are doing, easy to cut. I normally do my own. Especially now that the old mom and pop glass shops around here are all gone.

[Dropacent]

This is just a sample of some of the many types of glass imprints. It’s acid etched and usually placed on the lower corners of each piece. It gets kind of busy to have all that extra writing on the glass, especially so in a coupe where you are so close to it all. AND the original glass didn’t have these markings. To each their own!

[John Codman]

Tim, What is "imprinted" (maybe a dumb question!).

The glass shop told me that laminated glass is much more expensive than tempered glass.

Irrelevant. You are required by Federal law to use safety plate (laminated glass) in a windshield. I have posted this before, but if you replace the original glass with anything but laminated' and someone is injured by that glass, you could find yourself in the wrong end of a large lawsuit regardless of what caused the windshield to fail. You do not have to use laminated glass in the other windows.
As to cutting laminated glass in the field - I watched J. N. Phillips glass cut a pair of '48 Buick windshields (flat laminated) in their shop.

[TXGOAT2]

I would put safety glass in all the windows. It's the cheapest auto glass available today. Tinted or low UV glass is an option, ans may cost a little more, but it will offer some protection to upholstery from the destructive effects of sunlight. Many auto glass shops today may not have anyone on the payroll who is skilled at cutting auto glass or installing it in older vehicles. Most all vehicles built in the last 40 to 50 years have curved laminated glass windshields and curved tempered glass side and rear windows. These items are ordered ready made from suppliers and installed on cars. They are not made in the shop. Windshields are glued in place, unlike older vehicles.

[TMiller6]

I have switched to tempered side glass on my projects that have windows. When Ford introduced safety side glass as an option on the Model A, they factory sealed the edges with some black sealer. I didn’t and am now seeing that the glass is delaminating. My glass shop has also told me tempered glass will resist breaking
whereas laminated glass tends to crack easily if someone grabs the rolled down window to pull the door closed.

As far as seeing tempered glass in windshields of restored cars, I’ve spotted a few at the Old Car Festival as the glass appears wavy when viewed from the side in the right light.

There was a car that came with a tempered glass windshield from the factory. The 54-57 Eurospec Beetles had a tempered glass windshield with an oval area in front of the driver that was untempered and designed to pop out in an accident and to remain clear if the rest of the windshield crazed from a stone bruise. These windshields did not make it to North America.

[Dropacent]

Great info, Tommy! Just for snicks, what is , say a coupe door glass, in tempered glass cost up in the motor city? The last time I checked around here, wing wing tempered glass quote gave me a heart attack. Of course, in the sticks, we have to send out for everything to a big city.
I remember that edge coating on safety glass, we used to be able to get that here, but that ship sailed a long time ago. I’d guess a good modern epoxy painted on would do the same thing. I haven’t needed an exposed edge on anything in a long time.

[Allan]

You simply cannot cut tempered glass. If you try it will shatter just as if a rock had hit it. The tempering is done AFTER the glass is cut. A tempered glass screen will have some tiny dimples at one edge where it is held while it is in the tempering furnace.

Allan from down under.

[BLB27]

Thanks guys for pointing out that the windshield needs to be laminated glass. I contacted the DOT and found the specific standard; that is the windshield has to be laminated and the windows can be tempered glass.

I contacted the local shop to make a change to my order and found that they had already noted on my order that the windshield had to be laminated.

In my original post, I asked for comments regarding thickness. Any comments?

[Allan]

I believe the standard thickness for flat laminated glass windscreens is now 6mm, which is a mite thinner than the old 1/4" plate glass. This is a help when mounting new glass in the old brass channel. US supplies may be different.
In the name of weight saving, some modern cars have glass as thin as 5mm.

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

If your glass is delaminating, it is not tempered glass. Unless it is is over 30 years old, it should not be delaminating, and if it is, it has probably not been handled correctly when cut, finished, and installed. Laminated glass will not crack when used in doors if it is installed correctly unless the door has structural problems or you allow Godzilla to slam the door. I suggest that you consult with a couple of other good auto glass shops in your area and ask if they can cut you some antique auto windows in TEMPERED glass.

[Allan]

Pat, the glass needs to be cut first and then tempered. Tempered glass cannot be cut. The two step process is why tempered glass screens are more costly. Tempered glass is tougher and more scratch resistant than laminated glass, so it is more forgiving of knocks and bumps in side window operation.

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

I understand that. I have repeatedly attempted to communicate that point. There seems to be confusion concerning what is and what is not tempered glass as used in automobiles.

[John Codman]

Just be aware that there are two types of tempered glass. The tempered glass used by the manufacturers of modern cars is OK, but pure tempered glass literally explodes when it sustains an impact significant enough to fracture it. Back in the 1960s, I was disassembling a damaged door from a Ford Econoline when the glass exploded literally inches from my face. I only sustained a couple of small cuts and scratches, but it could have been a hell of a lot worse. I have not had pleasant thoughts about tempered glass ever since. I would install safety plate in any auto window that I replaced.

[Dropacent]

John, I’m with you and others, but you can only lead the horse to water..
………

[TXGOAT2]

Tempered glass can sometimes "explode" for no apparent reason. That happened with rear windows on some new early 1950s cars. It's been reported with a few late model Jeep Wranglers. (rear window). I have literally bounced a 14 pound sledge hammer off a rear window of a junk car without damaging the window. However, a small chip or nick in tempered glass can cause it to break into small fragments with a loud pop. When this happens, the glass may stay in place, or it may scatter like a handfull of pebbles. When it breaks, the entire piece will shatter into pebble-like fragments. If it hangs together, you cannot see through it, and it will soon fall apart. The fragments are far safer to handle than shards of broken plate glass. The proper replacement for any antique car with flat glass is laminated safety glass intended for automotive use. It can be cut and finshed to any shape needed at any good auto glass shop. My T has a laminated safety glass windshield with a light tint. It looks great and works great, it's the safest choice, and it is legal in all jurisdictions.

[jiminbartow]

In 1971, I watched the glass cutter as he cut the laminated glass for the windshield and the other five windows (2 doors, 2 quarters and 1 rear) for my 1926 coupe and, since, with laminated glass, there are two pieces of glass glued together, the first cuts (scores) are made with the diamond wheel glass cutter, then the glass is flipped over and the second cuts are made, following the line of the first cut, then the glass is tapped and broken. The glass cutter did a good job in breaking the glass right along the line of the two opposing scores. Had I tried it, I would have shattered it, so it is a good idea to have a professional do it. None of my glass is marked with a safety glass label since the pieces were cut from a larger piece of plate which is marked in the corner and the glass cutter avoided the mark.

When I tried to install the windshield into the frame using the cork gasket, it was too tight and would not slide down into the frame as it was supposed to so, after several attempts and destroying the gasket, I inserted the glass in the channel and centered it in the channel with spacers, below the edge of the channel and installed the straight top channel piece onto the frame. I then as neatly as possible, using a pointed nozzle, I filled the channel on each side of the glass with black RTV silicone sealant covering the spacers used to center the glass and let it cure then carefully trimmed away the excess sealant with a razor blade. It has been that way for 40 years and still looks great. Jim Patrick

[TXGOAT2]

It can be very difficult to break tempered glass. This has been a problem in situations where people drive their cars into lakes and canals. A safety device is on the market with which most people can break tempered glass car windows to escape an accident situation.

[TMiller6]

Some replies:

Tim, I can't give you a price since it's been a while since I've been to the glass shop. The last time they told me there's really not much of a difference now. That was while I was having two pairs of '26 windshields cut our of laminated safety glass. I had the second set installed in my Touring Car frames and have them stood up in a corner where I hope I won't bust them.

As I continue work on my Roadster, I tell myself I should have bought yours when I had the chance.

Pat, the de-laminating safety glass is at least 35 years old now. As I noted, I didn't seal the edges when I installed it in the early 1980;s. I am notorious for hanging on to certain cars including my first car as a teenager. So now it will be my son's or grandson's problem. That is why I am now going to tempered glass on the side windows. I continue to use Logan Glass in Dearborn and am now dealing with the second generation of family running it. I trust them and they like my projects as they do them in their spare time.

As far as Godzilla breaking laminated safety glass windows, it's actually easier to break the unsupported edge of laminated than plate glass because you have two thinner layers with a flexible membrane between them. My '41 Ford has a cracked door window that resulted from someone using the glass to slam the door, Ford had to refit the Model A Taxis with a very prominent rear door pull because the cab companies were complaining about glass breakage in this manner.

[TXGOAT2]

My '81 Dodge windshield is beginning to delaminate along the lower edge. It appears to be original, since it has the Mopar logo on it. The side windows and vents are tempered glass.

[jab35]

FWIW, on 8/2/18 I had the rear window and the two quarter side windows cut for my '26 coupe in a glass shop in Lacrosse, WI. The Invoice dated 8/2/18 states "1/4" clear safety sheet" -Rear-$37.94; Two quarter windows-- $147.84. Just under $200 total with tax. They used the original plate glass as a pattern and I collected the glass the day after I dropped of the patterns. YMMV, jb

[TXGOAT2]

People who use window glass as a door pull should be placed in the trunk.

[Dan Hatch]

Or just look behind the milling machine where there is a stack of these

[Allan]

Plate glass used in early cars was/is notorious for breaking into large, sharp shards which can be lethal. It was replaced with tempered safety glass, which became the norm in the industry. While it shatters into a million little pieces on impact, these are generally harmless. The glass itself is much tougher and resists scratching, knocks, twisting etc. far more than laminated glass. It is still the go to product in side and rear glass in cars.
Mention has been made of the difficulty of deliberately breaking it in rescue situations. In Australia, cargo barriers in station wagons come fitted with a sharp pointed tool just for this purpose, should someone inadvertently be trapped behind the barrier. If the tailgate was fitted with a laminated screen, it would be nigh on impossible to effect the same rescue.

Laminated front windscreens are a safety compromise. Rather than break into a million little bits, which seriously reduce visibility, or have to be pushed out to be able to continue the journey, they crack but stay in place. The vehicle can still be driven until the glass can be replaced. Like all compromises, there are down sides. The glass is not as abrasive resistant, so windscreen wipers need to be maintained. They crack/break more often with impacts of mush less severity. They will crack with twisting. They will de-laminate at raw edges.

I have had experience with all three types in T's. I broke a plate glass screen when I dropped it.

I had toughened screens made for my 1915 tourer. On a national tour the top screen was smashed when a truck threw debris when passing. At the morning tea stop, we'd just finished cleaning out the front seat when the bottom one exploded while we were working. They were replaced with laminated screens, as that was all we could do at short notice under the circumstances.

Laminated screens are the go to solution but, I have cracked one when fitting it. The glass was held down in the in the frame with a clamp while the keepers at the to were fitted. On relaxing the clamp, the screen cracked at one of the clamped corners.

I broke a second one when opening the screen. One end hinge did not want to let go like the other, resulting in the screen wanting to twist, and there went another. Grab both ends if you want to open the screen.

A third was star cracked by a small stone thrown up, and that grew to a long crack right across the screen.

I have a fourth. Right down in the bottom of a screen with a curved lower edge, a crack appeared some time after the car was first restored. I have a little T Ford Club sticker over it on the outside and a lube reminder sticker on the inside.

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

I believe that Ford introduced laminated safety glass in windshields only beginning in 1928. Laminated safety glass may have been optional for windows and backlights. I think that laminated safety glass became standard all around on the Deluxe Fords in 1930 and remained optional on the standard models, windshield excepted. I believe that laminated safety glass all around became standard across the line in 1932. I have a 1930 standard Ford coupe that is an original build. It appears to have plate glass in the windshield. It is probably a very old replacement, likely pre-WWII. The windows and backlight are plate glass, except the door glass on the driver's side is (very old) laminated safety glass. It has obviously been replaced at some point. Ford was using solid tempered glass in doors and backlights on pickup trucks as early as 1969 that I know of.

[TXGOAT2]

All auto glass needs to be installed in such a way that it is not mechanically stressed. Folding windshields have to be handled with care to avoid breaking the glass. Moving parts of folding/crank out windshield assemblies need to be kept lubricated and adjusted properly. Glass to metal contact in window frames and windshield installations wil nearly always cause cracks or breakage to develop. Doors that have lost structural integrity can lead to glass breakage. Worn, hardened, or missing glass setting tape, rubber gasketing, and window run channeling can be expected to lead to glass breakage.

[TMiller6]

I am embarrassed it took me this long to get Tim his answer.

"Great info, Tommy! Just for snicks, what is , say a coupe door glass, in tempered glass cost up in the motor city? The last time I checked around here, wing wing tempered glass quote gave me a heart attack. Of course, in the sticks, we have to send out for everything to a big city."

Messing up my shoulder on my sister's icy driveway while checking to see why her husband wasn't answering his phone didn't help my timing.

I went to Logan Glass in Dearborn today and priced two Coupe door windows Three edges rounded and polished, no "bug" if possible and installed in my lift tracks. I supplied a two piece original of one window and the Ford print for patterns.

Laminated $167.92/pr.
Tempered $150.00/pr.

A friend accompanying me pointed out he had some original glass in his car. An interesting discussion followed.