To Dash or not to Dash. That is the 20 Roadster question.

[signsup]

So, next on the inquiry list is the dashboard area. Seems that this jigsaw puzzle 20 roadster I am taking on as a project is a starter engine with the body of a non electric roadster. So, coil box mounted on firewal between driver and passanger, third pedal just barely clears the top and has non key switch on it. I'll take some pics tomorrow. But no dash came with this body as I have read that a non electric car would not have one. A mount for a foot starter switch riveted to the frame, but the seat riser flat floor skin is not drilled for the switch. And, no battery carrier on the frame and no access panel in the rear platform for the turtle deck.

So, if I want to leave the starter and install the foot starter switch and a battery carrier, what would be best for ignition switch. Do I get a dash, install key switch for battery and magneto and an amp meter? I hav a short wooden platform on two angled mounts on the depot hack that holds a amp gauge and switch. Can I mount something like that on the metal cowl? If I go with a key switch on some sort of dash, do I replace the coil box with a non switched one? Or just leave the coil box on all the time and wire it to the keyed switch?

I know I'm kinda making Model T salad here, but I'm trying to keep this family heirloom project in the condition of parts that it was entrusted to me with. Any suggestion appreciated.

[Russ_Furstnow]

Accessory dashboard were available from Stewart Warner. I would not change the coil box as your car was originally a non-starter car. Here are a few photos of what Stewart Warner offered. I hope this helps, Russ Furstnow

[signsup]

Didn't think about head lights, but I will need some sort of switch for the head lights and a place to mount it and I haven't figured out the choke rod location with no dash yet. So perhaps leave the original coil box in place on the firewall and add a full length dash of some sort, either a roadster metal dash or even make a full width dash out of wood? I'm looking at some dashs for sale on eBay and no two are alike even though described as roadster dash for this model year T.

[John kuehn]

Since your car is a car that’s going to made up from non-starter and starter car parts. I think the kind of engine you are going to use which is a starter generator engine is the determining factor about which dash you should us.
It will be simpler to use a metal starter car dash, the coil box without the ignition switch and the ignition switch that mounts in the metal dash. It has the ignition switch, amp meter and the light switch built into it.
Drill a hole in the heel kick panel for the starter button and get you a battery holder. Drill the holes in the frame to mount it and install the battery.
It’s either doing that or using what you have as is with the starter generator engine. Either way you go your not going to have a 100% car a purist would build.
After all Ford added a starter to his Model T for a reason. It was to improve the car and make things easier for the owner.

[signsup]

This jigsaw puzzle is beginning to speak to me. I think my father in law who started this project in the '70's started with a 20 rolling chassis as the engine has the starter and generator, the frame has the foot starter mount and the holes are there for the battery carrier. I think he had no body for this car or it was originally a touring or speedster and he acquired a roadster body in need of full restoration. So I'm dealing with marrying the two puzzles. Electric rolling chassis but non electric roadster body.

With the help of this forum . . . I'll get there. Piddled with windshields today, three to choose from, but mounting holes in cowl are frew or flat out missing, so some welding sheet metal is on the list. One windshield actually has a large hand windshield wiper on the drivers side although I do not know how it would wipe two seperate glass panels of two different planes. I've got to dig out the head lights and see if they are electric or not. The cowl lights are oil burners.

[Hap_Tucker]

Robert,

It can be fun trying to figure out what previous owners have done with a T and even more fun to try and figure out why they did it.

If you have not already checked into joining the “Southern Peach T’s” located there in GA, I would suggest you get in touch with them. The link to their information is on the MTFCA Chapter site at: https://www.mtfca.com/chapters/#ga and if you click on Darin Hull’s name – it will give you the following e-mail address to make contact: info@southernpeachtsdotcom (replace "dot" with "." and it will work). They are an active group and hopefully have some folks close to your area.

You mentioned they body is probably not original to the chassis? Take a look at the right front floor board riser (the wooden part that holds the top 2 front floor boards and that angles up and in to the front of the cowl and touches the firewall. Is there a letter and a number stamped there? If so if may or may not give you a date for when the body was manufactured and by which of the body makers. For additional details on what to look for please see the forum posting: “Home for the Holidays” at:
( http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html ) Your body would most likely have the number on the right front floorboard riser. You may or may not find the number. And if so it may or may not confirm that you body was built prior to 1920. I looked but I did not find the reference I was looking for – but at some point all the bodies supplied to Ford would have had the starter plunger hole pre-stamped even if that body was dropped onto a non-starter car.

There are multiple ways you could build/wire the chassis with the starter/generator for use with the firewall and body the car now has. Note the firewall actually goes with the chassis on the pre-1926 cars. The firewall and steering column were already mounted to the chassis when the body was dropped onto the chassis. You may or may not be able to figure out what originally happened. Did they add a starter & generator to a non starter car? Did they replace a non-starter engine with a starter & generator engine? Did they add a body that was originally set up for a non-starter car to a chassis that has a starter?

The following links discuss similar questions and some of the ways they can be addressed/made to work:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1420054237 that discusses a similar situation -- coil box with a switch on the front used in a T that has a starter and has the light & ignition switch on the dash. Note some of the links in the old posting no longer work. But the posting came up for me tonight. Consensus was "fix it right" by changing out the coil box to the starter type that does NOT have the switch on the front of the coil box. It can be done in other ways -- but that way makes it easy as the Ford wiring diagrams etc. all match the hardware on the car. (Note you may or may not need to change the "connector block" where the wires are connected on the engine side of the firewall.)

Also:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1539045966

If you need the later coil box without the switch on the front, or metal dash, switch & amp meter – you can place a wanted advertisement on the Classified Parts section. Note your coil box with the switch is usually more valuable than the later 1919-25 coil boxes that were supplied without the switch on the front.

You mentioned you were going to look for the headlamps to see if they were electric or not. Originally, any 1915-1925 USA produced T should have come from the factory with electric headlights. (There is some debate about the 1914 style bodied T's produced in the first part of the 1915 calendar year. Also some owners may have had the "one bulb burns out and the circuit is broken and the other bulb no longer lights the road so it is really dark system" with the older style acetylene lamps). But are the headlights set up for Magneto power or are they set up for battery power? And were the ones that came on the car? It’s late so I’ll quit here. But if you don’t know how to identify what the headlights are set up for – just ask and folks will chime in.

Good luck with your T. Don’t get frustrated – you can get it figured out.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

[signsup]

Hap,
Yes, I joined the Peach State group, but it is only an interenet group at this time but I am hoping to host a club meeting over at the shop and have the members assist with show and tell and help guide me in this process. I'll go look for the riser stamping, but that part of the cowl and door hinge and attachment is loose and may or may not be original to this body. Tried attaching a windshield yesterday and most of the attachment holes on the cowl are missing, so some welding required to get that taken care of and that would be a time to get a correct dash and make sure all fit together. Appears that at least the one interior mounting hole on the windshield support goes through a dash mounting hole on the cowl lip and I have two on the passenger side and none on the drivers side. The coil box with the switch appears to have been restored in the /70's as there is a large piece of polystyrene on the backside of the coil box. But, perhaps trade bait for a non switch coil box. I do not have the lid for this coil box, so I don't know how useful it will be to me or others.

But having the firewall match more to the starter generator engine than it does to the body makes more sense, so I'm grateful for that knowledge. The body parts are wll wired to old 2x4's for transport and resting on the frame, so I am sure this was all acquired as two seperate project and I get to marry them together. But...a bit of tin and a bit of board ...

[John Codman]

I have a Lang's battery holder - part #5150A. This carrier does not use a battery box, but does require a spacer board which you can make or order from Lang's for $10.25. If you want it, I'll send it to you for the cost of the shipping.

[Dan Hatch]

Did not T without a dash have had a combo horn button/ light switch? Dan

[Hap_Tucker]

Dan,

All of this is for USA Ford Production: The 1915 into the early 1917 USA produced cars had the push pull light switch located to the right of the coil box. Those with the electric horn (some 1915s and supposedly all 1916s and early 1917s had the electric horn) the horn button was mounted on the top edge of the steering column and the light switch was still located to the right of the coil box.

Later in 1917 the horn button was changed from only a horn button on top of the steering column to a combination horn and light switch mounted on the side of the steering column. The earlier push-pull light switch and the hole for the light switch was removed from the wooden firewalls that were fitted to the cars. [Note for Canadian production the earlier style horn button on top of the steering column and push-pull light switch to the side of the coil box continued. ]

Robert,

John has made a very generous offer to you of a battery bracket. Be sure you don't over look it with all the other things that are posted in this thread. (Thank you John!) The Lang's on-line catalog does NOT show the 5150A battery carrier (or at least when I put the numbers in to search for it -- it did not show up). But the printed 2021 Lang's catalog I have does show it listed. It would allow you to mount a standard 6 volt batter in the same area that Ford installed them -- under the floorboards behind the front seat. (If you had a touring it would be under the rear floorboards.) Since you said your frame had the holes to mount the starter switch, it most likely already has the holes to mount the 5150A battery bracket. You could bolt it in or you could rivet it it - but the bolts would be a lot easier and most folks are not going to be looking under your car to see if it was riveted in place or not.

My bad -- I'm late to the discussions about your T. So I don't know the background. (Or if I have posted on your car in a previous thread -- I appologize -- I haven't gone looking to see if I did or did not previously read & post about your car.) If you have already determined that the roadster/runabout sheetmetal you have is all from a low cowl roadster (1915-1922ish) or at least all of it is a low cowl body -- that is great. If you don't know if your chassis has a firewall for a low or a high cowl body -- please check out the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/202420.html A 1920 would have come with a wooden firewall but the measurements are the same as the steel firewall as far as side to side. (Note the firewall brackets are different for the metal vs the wooden firewall (except for the very early low cowl metal firewalls that used the wooden firewall bracket and a spacer to put it in the correct posisiton.) Also the 1915-16 firewall brackets are different from the 1917 and later brackets.

While either firewall will fit any 1915-1925 frame -- only the low cowl firewall fits properly with the low cowl body and only the high cowl firewall fits properly with the high cowl 1924-25 model year style bodies. (Note the 1924 high cowl cars were introduced around Aug 1923 -- but Ford refered to them as 1924 models and if you ordered body parts you wanted the 1924 - 25 body parts and not the earlier 1923 low cowl body parts (at least for the cowl section).

If you need help posting some photos, if you e-mail them to me I will try to post them for you. Usually I have good luck with that. No I will never get a 1000 photos posted -- but a few I should be able to do.

It is sort of like any thing -- the first time you do one there are lots of things to learn. But after you learn those things it is easy. And the forum, books (Bruce McCalley's "Model T Ford" Encyclopedia on thumb drive see: https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php? ... ey#p198855

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

[signsup]

Guys, this help is really getting me fired up to jump start this project. At least the research part of it. The bows and saddles and irons were a seperate thread and I think I am on track with those. I will take some firewall pics and under the hood pics tomorrow so that we can all be on the same page.
I have PM'd John and taken him up on his very generous offer and it sounds like it not only be fit the frame in the proper location, but fit my needs to make it so a battery is accessable from under the car and I will not have to cut access into the platform and turtle deck base.

[Retro54]

As you already know... there is no right answers to a T... especially if your is a Bits-n-pieces car. I have a 1915 cut-down touring that has a 1922 starter engine in it. My father and I ran into similar questions as you are running into. Compounding our decisions was the fact that the front part of the touring that is left is in really decent original condition albeit with some small modifications over the 107 years since its January 1915 manufacture date. These photos show what we did, right wrong or indifferent, there is no right way when working with a car like this. I hope they gives you inspiration as you find your own way.

P.S. since these photos were taken I have installed a Rubes horn, and some day I hope to find a close to correct style speedo to fit in that floor board hole.

[Retro54]

And again, there's no right way when dealing with a car like this... but I wanted a battery for the starter, and so dad riveted an old battery holder into my frame for me.

[Duey_C]

Bob, I'm with Andrew. The 18 Runabout here has a 23 engine with the starter switch on the flimsy steel lower heel board?
Coil box is in place with switch. The frame had been drilled for a battery holder, likely in the 70's and the holder bolted right in.
I do a Jelf and put the key in upside-down so I don't kick it OFF when I hit the brake pedal.
Works great! I put the old hand-made dash on the wall.

[John kuehn]

Retro54 Is there a name or any markings on the column support in your car? Interesting to see one like that as the ones I’ve seen were straight and not curved like your is.
Your correct about doing what you need to do when you have a T that’s has parts and pieces from different years.

[MichaelPawelek]

Here are two of the aftermarket Stewart dash boards on Ebay….
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115134584375?h ... SwhWZhsnR3

https://www.ebay.com/itm/383699070459?_ ... 101224.m-1

[Retro54]

Retro54 Is there a name or any markings on the column support in your car? Interesting to see one like that as the ones I’ve seen were straight and not curved like your is.
Your correct about doing what you need to do when you have a T that’s has parts and pieces from different years.

No name that i can see or recall... here's another shot I just took. Hope its not too much thread drift.

[signsup]

Drift away as I,myself, am drifting away from the original dash question and now seeking any info I can get on how to proceed with the ID and restoration of this family inherited T. Again, it looks like electric running chassis with non electric roadster body sheet metal. Here are some pics to help with my narration.

Some items that I am questioning...

Cowl does not seem to have mounting holes on side for windshield supports. Non on the drivers side and only one on the passenger side.
Large hole in center top of cowl ???? for what purpose???
No mounting holes on steering column for headlight or horn button, but if this was an electric chassis item, presume switch and button would have been on the dash. I do have a six volt trumpet horn with this T.
Coil box was mounted on firewall, but appears to have been restored already along with wooden firewall. No hood former mounted, but is in parts stash.
Primer painted windshield presume came with primer painted body sheet metal, but I have a second full windshield with oil cowl lamps on t. No head lights or irons found. Radiator and shell as pictured. No dash on this cowl and not in parts stash. Sheet metal is mounted to rotted wood supports and some original wood is on inside of sheet metal and bows.

Leaning towards getting a dash and mounting no switch coil box on firewall and putting light switch on dash and correct horn button where it should be along with ignition key and amp meter. In effect, making this an electric body. Installing foot starter switch and battery in frame mounted carrier with access from under car and not cutting access door in platform and turtle deck. Getting carrier from John and two rear fenders from Daryl in NC. Looking at dash from eBay seller in Ont, CAN and will need to find some head lights and irons for mounting and a tail light along with a million small parts. I will need a complete wood kit and then the fun begins.

See anything I need to know, let me know. I have done one T before, so have a little basic knowledge. And, I may complete my 26 depot hack before really getting into this T so I can "gear up" for taking this on for the supreme commander.

BT engine.JPG (31.49 KiB) Viewed 3602 times

BT generator.JPG (34.43 KiB) Viewed 3602 times

BT coil box.JPG (28.85 KiB) Viewed 3602 times

BT hole in cowl.JPG (28.39 KiB) Viewed 3602 times

BT driver firewall.JPG (34.54 KiB) Viewed 3602 times

BT driver firewall.JPG (34.54 KiB) Viewed 3602 times

[signsup]

More pics . . .

BT pass firewall 2.JPG (31.64 KiB) Viewed 3602 times

BT pass firewall.JPG (31.26 KiB) Viewed 3602 times

BT gas tank.JPG (28.02 KiB) Viewed 3602 times

BT terminal block.JPG (27.17 KiB) Viewed 3602 times

BT steering column.JPG (32.31 KiB) Viewed 3602 times

[signsup]

Holes in frame for starter switch and battery carrier appear factory, but if rolling chassis is electric, that would make sense...

BT batery holes 1.JPG (30.73 KiB) Viewed 3600 times

BT battery hole 3.JPG (29.62 KiB) Viewed 3600 times

BT battery holes 2.JPG (30.73 KiB) Viewed 3600 times

BT starter switch top.JPG (25.58 KiB) Viewed 3600 times

BT starter switch below.JPG (22.79 KiB) Viewed 3600 times

[signsup]

I am presuming that all sheet metal I received is all from the original body. But pieces may have been acquired seperately and I'm trying to make them fit together. Seat skin primed but loose passenger door is not?

BT bows.JPG (35.8 KiB) Viewed 3600 times

BT cowl.JPG (27.41 KiB) Viewed 3600 times

BT pass door.JPG (29.55 KiB) Viewed 3600 times

turtle deck 2.JPG (24.38 KiB) Viewed 3600 times

[John kuehn]

Signup——-You mentioned if I read your information right that your cowl hasn’t got any holes to mount the windshield brackets on it. Another question is what the center bolt on the cowl was for. I have a 19 Roadster and a 21 Touring and they do have the center bolt on them.
The cowls on the inside and partially on the lower portion have a metal bracket frame work that stiffens the cowl and where the windshield brackets mount through. Here are some pics of a real rough dash and cowl I saved for the low cowl cars like you and I have. One side has a ear broken off and the other side still has it intact. Maybe this will give you an idea how your windshield brackets mount and what the bolts go through. And the metal firewall that’s in the pics is for the later hi cowl cars. Late 23-25 and not the earlier low cowl cars. Your car doesn’t take the earlier hood former that was used on the 15-16 models. I think you asked that question too.

I hope these pics can help!

[Hap_Tucker]

Robert,

If your 1926 is closer to being on the road, I would encourage you to get it running first. Having one that drives is a big encouragement to most of us. (And one that also stops.) Although it sounds like you may have another one that is driveable? And if so then you have one to help keep you motivated. I would not normally recommend taking two cars apart at the same time. It can be done, but if you get discuraged then they are both basket cases. And if you only take one apart at a time - then only one is a basket case.

In the future, recommend you post higher resolution photos. Folks cannot zoom in much on the low resolution photos you are posting. But if you post a higher resolution photo when you click on the photo it takes you to a copy that you can zoom in on and see additional details. Sometimes that can be a big help.

Also if you can add your comments close to the photo that can help also. For example I reposted your wooden firewall photo below:

wood firewall - Robert-s 1920ish Roadster.JPG (31.23 KiB) Viewed 3560 times

Above notice that there are only 9 holes for the porcelan insulators that stick out of the back of the coil box to go through the firewall. The coil box without the switch on the front only has 9 of those porcelan insulators. The coil box with the switch mounted on the front has 10. A standard 1915-1922 coil box with the switch on the front will not mount to that firewall without adding another hole or removing the extra insulator from the coil box. So it looks like the firewall was set up for a starter car coil box (1919-1925).

The running board brackets that are shown in the photo are the 1915-1921ish style before they went to the pressed steel running board brackets.

The horn button for both the non-starter and starter USA cars 1919 - 1927 mounted in a bracket that attached to the steering column.

And I don't know of an easy way to use the original style batter carrier/bracket and not have a door of some kind through the floorboards to put the battery in the bracket or to check and add water etc. The Roadsters/Runabouts had an opening covered with a door that was inside the turtle deck. Perhaps someone with more experience with the starter equipped cars will know more about that. I've only had one starter equipped T so I've got lots still to learn about them.

If you or anyone else would like a free copy of the R.V. Anderson's article that he wrote about rewooding his 1923 (low cowl) roadster -- send me your e-mail address, put "send 1923 Roadster rewooding article" or something similar and I will send you a copy. I'll try to send you a note with my e-mail using the contact on the forum. You can also click on the "contact" on the right side of the posting and send me your e-mail. [Hey -- when I send you the e-mail -- it may show me what your e-mail addres is, and if that happens, I'll send the article to you tonight.]

The top of the cowl is not suport by the firewall -- rather the cowl is part of the body and the body is fitted to the frame and the front is bolted to the firewall. So there is a good chance your poor body panel spacing is caused by the lack of the wood skeleton / structure in the body or could be the firewall is higher than it should be or a little of both?

A quick look, it appears you have the low cowl body parts -- which would be correct for 1920.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off