Head off 22 touring. Thoughts opinions?

[L.I. Tom]

Hello and happy holidays to all. I have been helping my friend Bob with his newly acquired 22 touring. He pulled the head off and sent me these photos the other day I haven't been there yet to physically look at it since the head came off. The car has sat for 20 years But as far as we know it was driven some prior to that by the previous owner. Prior to pulling head put some oil in cylinders and compression test as follows numbers 1 and 2 20 pounds number 3 10 pounds number 4 0. I am thinking by looking at photos number 3 and 4 probably carbon and crap under valves maybe. I am sure all valves need going over. I noticed in the photos Bob sent after he cleaned up number 1 and 2 fair amount of rust pitting in the combustion chambers and on the valve heads. But I am thinking maybe that is old rust pitting from days gone by. All thoughts going by what you see here are appreciated.
Tom

[L.I. Tom]

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[Godabitibi]

The rear one sure do consume oil.

[ironhorse]

Valve job for sure, but as long as you are in there remove the oil pan inspection cover and check for loose objects. I found 3 heads from the magneto screws (brass) and 2 of the plates that hold the end of the magnets down. Had I just done a valve job and started the engine it could have been disastrous. besides while you are there you can check for proper rod bearing clearance. this only takes about 2 hours extra but the peace of mind is worth it.

[TXGOAT2]

Clean it up and measure everything. The valves ought to be replaced. The amount of rust pitting on the block surfaces indicates that the engine sat with water in it, or ran for many hours with a leaky head gasket. If the head gasket contact surfaces are not pitted, the pitting in the combustion chamber surface is not a problem unless it affects a valve seat. The carbon does not necessarily indicate that the engine is bad. How does the rest of the car look? Have you looked in the transmission? Crankcase?

[John kuehn]

One question would be is how much money do you want to spend.
I think a refresh to the engine would be in order if it was my car.
First thing I would do is to drain the oil then use a gallon of diesel or kerosene and pour it in the engine. Hand crank the engine several times to help clean up the engine for later inspection.
After removing the pan and if you don’t see anything that’s loose or broken remove the pistons and rods, check and take up the rods if necessary. Install new valves and rings, hone the cylinders and get it started. You then can see what it will take for the transmission work.
New bands of course will be needed.

The block is probably worn some but probably not hopefully not a lot. Checking the bores will determine that.
Some would want to remove the engine and have a total rebuild. That’s where the cost really changes.

Old engines can fool you to think everything has to be replaced in it but not always.

[kmatt2]

Are you sure that the cylinder numbers didn’t get mixed up in the compression test listing ? In picture number one it looks like cylinder number 2 has a broken cast iron piston. Offhand I would say that the engine needs to come out and the engine and transmission need to be taken apart, cleaned up some, and checked out. Hopefully the crankshaft and main bearings will be in OK shape and you don’t need to go to OS pistons and you can find a cast iron replacement piston.

[Norman Kling]

I agree with Kevin.
It was using a lot of oil and maybe ran rich on certain cylinders. The compression is uneven. Only number 4 has compression within reasonable limits. Maybe the valves are stuck. They can sometimes stick, especially if the engine has sat for many years without being run.
Norm

[L.I. Tom]

Hi all thanks for the replies keep them coming. Had the inspection cover off the transmission all looks good for the most part brake drum has a groove in the center not unusual. It has kevalar bands which still look to be in reasonably good condition all clean in there triple gears seem to be tight no slop or play. We'll also pull inspection plate off bottom and look. Won't be until next week sometime before I get over to actually take a look at it. Number 4 cylinder had 0 compression Numbers 1 and 2 had 20 pounds and number 3 about 15 or so. I'm thinking probably valve job also but haven't looked at it since the head was off. When I looked at it before the head was off had the valve cover off valves didn't seem to be hanging but I'm thinking possibly hoping just a bad valve or crud underneath number 4. Will check Cylinder's pistons rings and bearings as we progress. We'll post findings as we go.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Those are 2 piece valves and should be replaced.

[Norman Kling]

The first time I read your post I though #4 was 40 lbs compression, but if it is zero, you have a sticking valve or very bad rings.
Norm

[VowellArt]

Might also want to bore out and replace the valve seats with the alloy seat insert. whilst you've got your engine torn down....the new fuels and oil mixtures don't affect the alloys the way they do the cast iron of the block. I had mine done when I was building the car by Eggy's Machine Shop and with those alloy seats and the one piece vales, I've never had any problems with my valves nor have I had to regrind the seats and I've driven this car since 1979 (and she still gets 21.7 miles/gallon....only problem is, it cost 50 bucks to fill her tank here in Califunny with our current gas tax).

[L.I. Tom]

Got over to take a look a couple of days ago Bob got the carbon cleaned up. Think we found the compression problem 3&4 exhaust valves and seats pretty rough and the rest not too great. New valves and springs are ordered will cut seats and fit new valves. Still need to finish cleaning up valve chambers and intake and exhaust ports and clean up the top of the block. Gasket surface and cylinder walls don't look too bad. Funny thing as the carbon was cleaned up there were no rust in the pits only carbon as a as if it had been cleaned up many years ago and run on two and a 1/2 cylinders I don't believe that number 4 was doing much of anything I suppose that's why it was so carboned up.

#4

#2&3

#3&4

#1&2

[L.I. Tom]

Valves

[Scott_Conger]

Here are my thoughts:

the next time your friend does this, he needs to set the pistons at 1/2 throw and lay down a bead of grease around the circumference of the top of each piston (and adding a tightly packed set of rags into each cylinder won't hurt, either). This will catch and retain all of the crusty stuff and can be easily wiped up. As it is, all that hard carbon has now gone past the piston tops and is sitting on top of the top ring, waiting to scratch up the cylinder walls.

The good news is that the seats look like they may be original and unground. A Neway cutter will clean each up and still have material to spare. Follow the Neway instructions and don't mess up the job by lapping...read the instructions to find out why.

[L.I. Tom]

Thanks Scott he did not do the grease but did pack rags before he scraped.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Those are 2 piece valves and should be replaced.

My mistake, they are NOT 2 piece valves ... but still need replacing.

[Norman Kling]

I would recommend that you visit a good machine shop and have the surface of the block reground. Just take off enough to make it smooth. Do the same to the head if it is pitted like that. That will also raise the compression a bit. When you put it back together put the head on without any gasket and check that the pistons don't hit the head. The usual places that they could hit would be right at the edge of the piston. If it does hit the head, grind off just enough of the head to clear the top of the piston. This should be doable with a home grinder in a drill. Just do not cut the surface which seals to the gasket. Just cut a bit off the actual place where the piston hits and then check again. With the gasket in place you then have plenty of room for the piston to clear the head. Also while you are doing this test, check the length of the bolts. you should be able to tighten them till they just hit the head. If too long, shorten them just enough so they can be tightened all the way. Then you will have enough space to be able to torque down with the gasket in place.
Norm