Serial number lookup

[Bobbbenner]

Recently I bought a 22 touring car which Tom Pilz, George Reamy and I have been working on. Today we are going to finish with the valve ‘job’ we’ve been working on and hopefully soon we’ll hear the engine humming again!

I know this car was manufactured in early to mid April according to the serial number on the engine which I have added to this post. We are pretty sure this is the original engine that came with the car.

Is there some way to find the exact date for the car’s birthday? I’d like to have a hundred year party for her and invite other T’s from across Long Island to join in the festivities. My TT will be there and I’ll bet Tom will bring his.

Here’s the engine pic

[Mark Gregush]

April 4, 1922

[DanTreace]

Bruce’s lists gets you there, your engine was finished and tested April 4, 1922 4,176 engines made that day.

[TRDxB2]

Recently I bought a 22 touring car which Tom Pilz, George Reamy and I have been working on. Today we are going to finish with the valve ‘job’ we’ve been working on and hopefully soon we’ll hear the engine humming again!

I know this car was manufactured in early to mid April according to the serial number on the engine which I have added to this post. We are pretty sure this is the original engine that came with the car.

Is there some way to find the exact date for the car’s birthday? I’d like to have a hundred year party for her and invite other T’s from across Long Island to join in the festivities. My TT will be there and I’ll bet Tom will bring his.

Here’s the engine pic

I have read about 50-75 Forum discussion about trying to identify a "car's birthday" by its engine serial number. But after reading those discussions and the commentary in the Encyclopedia it would still add a bit of doubt to an exact date as it states clearly that "Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the "engine" NOT the car." https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm.
Having said that, brings up an interesting question, is the agreed upon data that a Model T was actually "born": when it leaves the assembly line; a title/registration/bill of sale date; should it be based on part variations; for some years a chassis number? As it has also been documented, assemblies were under the general rule of consuming previous supply, year, parts before switching to the new inventory. In addition, over the years parts have been replaced, cars modified, restored. with original (NOS, used) or reproduction parts. Even reproduction parts have quality and accuracy issues..
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Personally I think its more important to identify and document a car's year by its parts. chassis design, engine, axles, body etc and explanation of those cross over parts. So as you are doing the restoration have you been documenting? If someone wanted to buy it, is there any documentation and what you have done to the engine and when? Wouldn't that give provenance to the year of manufacture and make a car more valuable?

[Mark Gregush]

Most people use the engine number as the cars birthday. In my OP, there is no need to over do the whole thing to celebrate the 100th year.

[Steve Jelf]

Tuesday, April 4, 1922. Third shift, about 10:45 PM.

I agree that the date of the car isn't necessarily the date of the engine. An engine might go into a chassis the same day it was tested and stamped, but I think for most there was a gap of at least a day or two. And for engines shipped to assembly plants across the country, of course the gap would be greater.

Simply because so many engines have been replaced in the course of a century, the serial number can't be the only clue in dating a T. Fortunately the dates of changes in many body and chassis features are available. That allows pinning a car down at least to a model year (unless it's a Johnny Cash car).

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG90.html

[TRDxB2]

The engine number points too April 1922. Easter Sunday is April 17 022. Good time to be in an Easter Parade with it

[Oldav8tor]

Since other records are mostly nonexistent, the only firm date you can know about your car is the day the engine was assembled and tested. If the engine clearly doesn't match the rest of the car then you're pretty much out of luck. Looking at the other parts on the car can be misleading because in many cases they have been replaced in the last century.

I was lucky with my touring....the engine date (Sept 23, 1916) matches 90+% of the rest of the car so I feel comfortable with it's "birthday." The fact that it matches my dad's 10th birthday is an added plus.

[kmatt2]

Even to this day in 2022 new Fords, and other makes also, only use the month and year of the final assembly on the door posted build information tag. My 1926 T Cp has a frame number of late February 1926 but probably had a final assembly date in March 1926. With Model A Fords it is possible to get the date of final assembly if the car has its original gas tank. Ford stamped Model A final assembly dates, month-day-year all at once, in small numbers in the front engine side face of the gas tank on the steering gear side of US cars. For a pre 1926 Model T it is hard to pin down a build month because of Ford’s practice of using up old style parts and phasing in new parts as supply would dictate. For a T birth day I would use the main body parts and just go with the year, if the engine number matches that year you could add a month to the birthday.

[TRDxB2]

Since other records are mostly nonexistent, the only firm date you can know about your car is the day the engine was assembled and tested. If the engine clearly doesn't match the rest of the car then you're pretty much out of luck. Looking at the other parts on the car can be misleading because in many cases they have been replaced in the last century.

I was lucky with my touring....the engine date (Sept 23, 1916) matches 90+% of the rest of the car so I feel comfortable with it's "birthday." The fact that it matches my dad's 10th birthday is an added plus.

Am I correct in i understanding what you said: if you have an entirely correct 1919 car with a 1920 engine then the owner is out of luck since the engine doesn't match the rest of the car. ... So what your is the car 1919 or 1920?

[Norman Kling]

If you want the exact date the car was sold and first registered, you would need to find a car which has been in contact with someone who knew the original owner or the family and who has the documents available. Even so, many cars have had the engines changed with " rebuilt" engines or earlier with factory replacement engines. My grandfather drove from Los Angeles to Plymouth Rock and then back through Ontario Canada and finally back to Los Angeles He did this in 1926. Somewhere along the way they broke the crankshaft and was towed into a Ford Dealer, who replaced it and next day continued on with the trip. I doubt very much that the crankshaft was replaced in the same engine that fast. Most likely a replacement engine was installed.
And so, unless you have documented history, you will likely never know the exact date. Here is a pile of parts which became a 1926 Ford in my garage. Most of the parts are 1926 or compatible with 1926, but unlikely originated in the same car.

pile of rusty parts.jpg (41.21 KiB) Viewed 2732 times

Norm

[Oldav8tor]

Frank, if that question is for me, my comment was not meant to be derogatory. My car is a mix of late 1916 parts along with early 1917. Someone also swapped the original wheels for demountables sometime after 1919. The car sat gathering dust for much of it's life... with the result that it was pretty much original according to the MTFCI Judging Guidelines. What that means to me is that the date of the engine fits the rest of the car so I am comfortable going with that date for it's "birthday." Other than a title that says 1917 and a box with a 1989 postmark with the name of a previous owner (had the vinyl top in it) I have no other documentation. Ford's records were all lost in a fire so I am out of luck when it comes to definitive information. I have been able to determine that my car probably spent the first 70 years of it's life in Detroit just a mile or so from the Highland Park plant so I assume it was built there....just a guess.

My "clearly out of luck" comment refers to the difficulty narrowing down a build date when an engine has been swapped out without other documentation of the car's history. In that case you're free to pick a day that suits you within what you've decided is the model year.

Oops! Forgot to answer your question - if you have an entirely correct 1919 car with a 1920 engine I would argue that it is a 1919 unless someone along the way had titled it differently. If I were to drop a later (or earlier) engine in my 1917 Touring I would still consider it a 1917. I added a starter (no generator) so it has a different hogshead and flywheel / coil ring and also a modern flat tube radiator so I don't tell people that everything is original to the car.

[Steve Jelf]

Looking at the other parts on the car can be misleading because in many cases they have been replaced in the last century.

I think it's extremely unlikely in most cases that the frame has been changed. The longest time that the frame remained unchanged was 1910-1913. Most frame changes were two or three years apart, and some were unique to a particular year or less. For example, a frame with a two-rivet hand brake quadrant but four holes would be early in 1925 production. In most cases I believe the frame and other components can get you at least to a model year for title and registration purposes, and in some cases the combination of features can narrow it down to a month or a few months. If a car is a total parts salad, I think that points toward a home made assembly from parts. That could have been made ninety years ago or last week.

[ModelT46]

Many model tfords have birth date in the previous year from the model year. For an example, model t Ford number 12345 was births in 1909, but is a 1910 Model T.

[TRDxB2]

Frank, if that question is for me, my comment was not meant to be derogatory. M..
....Oops! Forgot to answer your question - if you have an entirely correct 1919 car with a 1920 engine I would argue that it is a 1919 unless someone along the way had titled it differently. If I were to drop a later (or earlier) engine in my 1917 Touring I would still consider it a 1917. I added a starter (no generator) so it has a different hogshead and flywheel / coil ring and also a modern flat tube radiator so I don't tell people that everything is original to the car.

It was not meant to be at all derogatory but a simple theoretical type of question for all. If we are dating a car then shouldn't it be based on the sum of its parts not a single item. If were were to date an engine the serial number would be used. If we were to date a car with a number stamped on the frame would that override the engine number's date? I'm just trying say from reading many discussions in this Forum, criticism of a car's date is often argued based on its parts not just an engine or how it was Titled.
As Norman's example points out in his example, and just to modify it a bit, Case: A 1920 car was registered in April 1920 and then had to have the engine replaced in June 1920 by a dealer with another engine within the 1920 date range. There would be no problem in saying it was a 1920, but the day is was built couldn't be determined unless there was some document noting the engine swap.
As Steve points out, there are some modifications, like frame swaps, that would/could/should cause identification?
In my opinion if you were to do what you indicated in your 1917 example, it would still be a 1917 to me because that is what it began as.

Titles & bills of sale are only meant to identify car ownership and not intended as a document to confirm year of manufacture. Note: In same States don't have a "Registration" also
A car title is a legal document establishing proof of ownership of a vehicle. The key information is the State, owner, car identification and if the applicable lean holder.
A Registration is a legal requirement identifying the name of the person authorized to drive the vehicle and that any associated fees and taxes have been paid for specific period as determined by the respective State. The registration ill contain the name of the authorized operator, vehicle Identification information, license plate number, the period within which it has been authorized to be legally driven in the respective State.
If you get pulled over by an Officer of the Law, you need the Registration not the Title.