Snyders modern 12v starter

Post by **Loftbed** » Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:04 pm

Is anyone using this 12v starter? How do you like it? I'm assuming you just cap off the bendix hole?

Rod

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:12 pm

I think an interesting additional question would be "why would you spend $475 for an aftermarket starter when a remanufactured original can be had for the same price?"

This is, of course, not my thread, but it seems to be very much connected to the first request.

In all seriousness, I think the general consensus to the outcome of such a question would be meaningful to anyone hoping to fill the shoes of ANY of our recently retired or deceased suppliers.

Post by **J1MGOLDEN** » Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:32 pm

That starter has been around for several years on a lot of cars, mostly foreign perhaps, but it is very reliable and trouble free.

There is a well-stocked repair station in Ohio to complete any necessary repairs, but they have not been needed.

The only new part is the adapter plate required to attach it to a Model T transmission.

Evidently that was machined in England.

Post by **John Illinois** » Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:46 am

I have one on a 12V model A. I used it because I had a ring gear problem and did not want to pull the engine to fix it. The starter engages the front side of the ring gear and engages before it turns. T his saves wear and tear on the gear.
It works well but is about like an alternator-looks modern.

John

Post by **vech** » Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:49 pm

I have one on our 1922 coupe, along with the 12 v gear driven replacement alternator, that bolts directly in place of the 6 v generator, that they sell. I bought it 2 or 3 years ago, and both the alternator and the generator work flawlessly. Yea, they are not cheap. The starter turns the engine over very FAST in cold weather, and the car starts instantaneously. In addition, I have nice bright headlights, and can drive the car at night with no problems.
I made myself a blank off plate out of aluminum, and removed the original sheet metal, leaky cover.

At the risk of offending some people, I will say that many times, the cheapest part on a Model T is the driver!

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:04 pm

The WOSP starter was designed by folks in England who love and cherish Model T's as much as we do. It meets several needs. 12 volt - no bendix issues - geared so it turns the engine over very well.

I had a rebuilt original starter on my car when I started out. For the most part it worked OK although I experienced a few instances when the engine was hot that it would not turn the engine past compression (I have a Z head). I'd have to get out and turn it past compression with the crank and give it another go. After this happened in a busy intersection with cars honking at me I started looking at other options.

I was running 12 volts but had not converted the original starter from 6. I took it to a well-respected, old time, local automotive electrical shop and asked them about converting it.... they looked it over and flat-out refused to do it.

Investigating the WOSP, I liked what I saw. It is designed well and of excellent quality. Best of all, my car starts on the first turn of the key. Doesn't matter whether it is hot or cold. I usually start on mag and may add a little choke in the winter. Does it sound like a Model T starter? No.

Price - in a previous thread I reported that if you purchased directly from one of the two US WOSP distributors the price is about $100 less than what the vendors are charging, a statement for which I got flamed and may get flamed again. So be it. That puts the WOSP on par with a 100 year old starter if you are purchasing outright. Me, I bought the WOSP and sold my 6 volt starter and spare bendix and bendix parts and recovered 90% of my cost. I bought mine from a vendor so I could have saved more had I known to go direct.

My 1917 never had a starter - I added one when I rebuilt it and saved the original parts if the next guy wants to change it back. I'm old enough that cranking is not an easy or safe thing for me to do. I hope to be able to drive my T into my twilight years so have made those changes that I think will make that possible. Some may not like my choices but I can tell you this....if you want to go 12 volts and you want a starter that will be reliable and worry-free, the WOSP is the way to go.

Post by **Loftbed** » Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:07 pm

Thanks all for the replys. can anyone attach a photo of the "new" starter as it is installed? I really like the idea of this starter, but as issue I may have is this car (a 1915 Speedster) has a Franklin steering box and the clearance between it and the stock starter in minimal. The "Snyder" starter appears to be off set from the mounting plate, moving the starter itself closer to the engine. If this is actually true, it might work with the Franklin box?

Rod

: FRANKLIN STEERING BOX ON 1915 FORD SPEEDSTER

Post by **J1MGOLDEN** » Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:19 pm

This is one that was hot wired for a quick test and worked fine.

Randall strickland · Post by **Randall strickland** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:33 am

it also can be inverter to get more clearance

Post by **Charlie B in N.J.** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:43 am

How does that work? Does the gear move out?

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:59 am

I would rather have a standard Model T starter and run 6 volts as Henry intended it. One of the great things about a Model T is that if the starter doesn't work, you can crank start the car. And if the generator stops working you can run on magneto.
I often seen cars on tours which were sidelined by failures of alternators This usually happens when the gear breaks or the alternator overheats because it was not made to work off a gear but off a pulley with a built in fan.
One of the main reasons I don't like the new starter is the way it looks.
Norm

John Codman · Post by **John Codman** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:08 am

Norman Kling wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:59 am
I would rather have a standard Model T starter and run 6 volts as Henry intended it. One of the great things about a Model T is that if the starter doesn't work, you can crank start the car. And if the generator stops working you can run on magneto.
I often seen cars on tours which were sidelined by failures of alternators This usually happens when the gear breaks or the alternator overheats because it was not made to work off a gear but off a pulley with a built in fan.
One of the main reasons I don't like the new starter is the way it looks.
Norm

I feel the same way, but in the case of the OP, the car is significantly modified (with a 12V electrical system and a non-original steering setup) so I wouldn't worry about a aftermarket starter. In my case, I have a rebuilt original starter backordered from Lang's.

Post by **BobShirleyAtlantaTx** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:46 am

Dose the gear on the starter gear stay engaged all the time?

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:38 am

"Does the gear on the starter gear stay engaged all the time?"

No - that is one of the misconceptions about these starters. The starter gear is specially cut to allow it to easily engage the ring gear. It's a two-stap process, first the gear engages, then the starter rotates, releasing the gear when the starter switch/button is released. Being geared, it turns the engine over quickly, allowing me to easily start on mag.

The starter motor has been around a long time. To use on a Model T the distinctive nose had to be designed. Here is a link to the folks in England responsible for the design. <https://www.modeltford.co.uk/>

I understand that Buckeye in Ohio is their designated repair station but that they've yet to had to service a defective one.

-----------
I understand and respect the views of all the guys who don't like the starter for not being "original" or it's looks or whatever reason. It's true, the original Ford starter has served for a century and if it works well for you, why change it? By putting a starter on a non-starter car I had already violated the car's originality. Lacking a generator I use a Fun Projects Hot Shot to charge a small battery under my back seat which is ample. For me, the WOSP has been trouble-free in 3500 miles but I still carry a few Ford Bendix parts to help friends who get in trouble on tour.

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:58 am

UPDATE:

I contacted WOSP performance asking about dealers for the starter and they only gave me Snyders. I have no idea whether there are still other suppliers out there.

Post by **DHort** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:44 pm

Do they only make them in 12 V? Any 6V?

Post by **Loftbed** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:16 pm

Here's a little background on why I am considering this. First the application will be on a heavily modified engine in a speedster, so no violation of the "purist" laws of nature. I.E. If I was to remove all the existing modifications to this car there would be but three nuts and 2 cotter pins remaining.
I got to this point after blowing out the Bendix while attempting to start it, it not only sheared off the bolt tip, it literally broke off the key so cleanly I couldn't find the slot in the starter shaft.
So, there you have it!
If I might off a suggestion to the naysayers, please read all of the questions/comments before dissing an application.

Rod
PS: I just called "Wosp" directly, and they no longer will sell to you, they directed me to Snyders

Post by **Susanne** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:54 pm

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:38 am
"Does the gear on the starter gear stay engaged all the time?"

No - that is one of the misconceptions about these starters. The starter gear is specially cut to allow it to easily engage the ring gear. It's a two-stap process, first the gear engages, then the starter rotates, releasing the gear when the starter switch/button is released. Being geared, it turns the engine over quickly, allowing me to easily start on mag.

So it's like a 2 stage non bendixed bendix... I'm guessing it's like a solenoid that activates to push the drive gear into the ring gear, and only once it's in position it allows current to flow to the motor?

I was (apparently incorrectly) assuming the gear stayed engaged with the ring, and it was an internal clutch mechanism that brought the motor into or out of the mechanical drive gear train...

Pretty interesting geegaw. I'm wondering how long these have been around, how many have been installed, and how many of those are "occasional use" and how many are relied on as semi-daily transportation... If (God forbid) I ever have to put a ring gear and starter on my car it might be the way to go - I know (like said elsewhere) these don't look authentic, don't run on authentic voltages, or behave or look like the Ford Starting and LIghting system units... but (I gave this some thought) neither my car or the motor I'm building had starters when they were built, (they weren't even available from Ford)... so putting a "Coronary Event Mitigation Device" on either (even one as supplied in the post-WW1 era by the factory) would be as inauthentic as, say, putting a Rajo BB head, Dan's 7.5º advanced timing gear sets, or one piece stellite valves...

I don't know, I guess, push coming to shove, it's all about what you're willing to accept. And (I hate to admit) I am of that age where that little innocuous floor button is starting to look awfully nice...

Kevin Pharis · Post by **Kevin Pharis** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:09 pm

I have one on the shelf waiting to go in...

Due to many bendix drive failures over the years, I simply don’t trust that the starter will work when I need it the most. So you might notice that when we pull over for a photo op in the middle of nowhere, or stop to water the trees, I never shut off the engine! The more remote the location... the more paranoid I am.

In full disclosure, this engine makes about 160 psi of compression, does not have a manual timing retard, is running a 6v starter, and has a high capacity battery. I recognize that I am setting my own trap by not converting the starter to 12v and running the battery... but I refuse to run a questionable quality battery, and fixing the starter voltage doesn’t fix the fact that there is still a bendix mechanism operating in the oil pan.

I tried one of the chebby starters a number of years ago... but was really disappointed in the quality of what I had purchased. The solenoid operated drive gear was the only solution in my eyes. This WOSP starter checks all the reliability boxes on my list!

Post by **Loftbed** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:12 pm

Pulled the trigger, should know by weekend if it fits and how it works?
I've also had a thought on the views of some enthusiasts related to this and other non-original parts.
I wonder if when considering the originality of your being, would you choose to refuse a pacemaker if so needed?
Hmmmm food for thought, isn't it.

Rod

John Codman · Post by **John Codman** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:28 pm

I have a similar starter in my hot rod pickup truck powered by a 431 cubic inch Buick engine. It works great.

Post by **Mark Chaffin** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:07 pm

We carry them as well. 4 on the shelf.

otrcman · Post by **otrcman** » Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:21 pm

I, too, have a similar starter on my '50's street rod with flathead Mercury engine. I had previously been breaking Bendix springs regularly with a standard starter which had been converted for use with 12V. The conversion didn't seem to protect the Bendix at all.

When I purchased my modern starter I was concerned about being stuck somewhere with a busted "custom starter". So when I called the vendor (Flat-O-Matic) to order the starter I asked him about the wisdom of buying a second starter as a spare "just in case". The vendor told me the starter was nothing more than a Mopar starter like on my wife's Dodge minivan. He said I could take it to any decent auto electric shop and they would see how a stock unit had been modified with the addition of the aluminum adapter plate and the gear. In a few minutes a shop should be able to swap the adaptor plate and gear onto their new starter and send me down the road.

No longer do I hear that terrible CLANG when I start the engine. Now I just smile every time I press the starter button.

John Codman · Post by **John Codman** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:03 pm

I remember working on 1950s-vintage Ford products and they were famous for grenaded Bendix drives. I don't think that I have replaced many of the Ford-designed starters, but I'll bet we changed three Ford drives for every other manufacturer's one. They were pretty much the same design as the factory T starter drive.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:00 pm

So, what I have learned from this thread is:

- an original starter (even if correctly rebuilt) can be expected to fail at the most inopportune or hazardous time possible
- many people can't make 6V work and adopt 12V systems
- 12V will eventually destroy a bendix that was designed to operate on 6V
- specifically seeking out professionals that do not repair Model T starters, yields predictable results: i.e. they won't repair a Model T starter
- When working on a Model T, if it has multiple modifications, no original repairs need be executed, much less considered
- over the course of a lifetime repairing cars from the 1950's on, more Ford starters were replaced than any other brand, ergo, a Model T starter is faulty by design
- anyone wishing to retain originality in their antique car is a hypocrite if they will not also reject modern medicine
- and finally, to the question originally asked: people who are inclined to fix antique cars and not necessarily repair them, do like the modern starter in question and it is very likely a good option for people who either distrust old technology or cannot make it work.

If anyone ever questioned whether or not there were a LOT of Model T's on the road, one would only have to point to the fact that in spite of a huge cadre of owners who reject original equipment, people like Ron Patterson, Brent Mize and (many) others, have still managed to successfully remanufacture and warrantee many thousands of original starters and generators.

Post by **Susanne** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:43 pm

I suspect it's more a matter of technology being supplanted by newer (and improved) technology.

Remember, the T was designed with one thing in mind - to get a relatively reliable vehicle out the factory door as rapidly as possible as cheaply as possible. Ford could have made changes or improvements to his original design (and Edsel kept trying to push him in that direction, much to Henry's disdain) but to do so would have detracted from the goal of Ford Motor Company's onus - Cheap, fast, produced quickly, and relatively reliable.

He could have put starters on his car many years before, but it detracted from these goals. He could have put 12 volt systems in (as Dodge had) but chose not to because 12V wasn't cheap as an onboard AC magneto. He could have put sliding gear transmissions and flat plate dry clutches in, or even went with an improved motor, but that would be contrary to his goals. It would also have been expensive - involving a retooling and throwing away a technology that, while it worked, was antiquated before the flivver was 10 years old, and was stuck with another 8. Heck, they bought (as I understand, on Edsel's insistance) the Lincoln works from Leyland, which was far and away a much more refined car, but it would be another 12 years before Ford decided to risk putting one of those "V-8" motors in his beloved Fords - and even then, only when he could make them cheap enough. He could have easily gone down the hole of his former employee, Wills, and built a comfortable, powerful, reliable and durable motor, but would the average joe afford one? No way.

Compare the T to it's German kin - the Volkswagen - Same goals, the difference being technology in 1938 had marched on from 1908... but it was the same flavor of beast - As reliable as possible, and as chaeap as you can make it and still have people buy it.

Post by **Loftbed** » Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:29 pm

I received the Modern starter this afternoon, it fits but is tight up against the block. I understand that it can be rotated 360 degrees on its axis, but how? It didn't come with any instructions and what is on Snyders site doesn't cover rotation!

anyone have the proceedure?

Rod

Post by **Loftbed** » Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:47 pm

Loftbed wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:29 pm
I received the Modern starter this afternoon, it fits but is tight up against the block. I understand that it can be rotated 360 degrees on its axis, but how? It didn't come with any instructions and what is on Snyders site doesn't cover rotation!
anyone have the proceedure?

Rod

OK, forget the last questiob!
I tried rotating the whole unit 180 degrees now it is upside down with the motor on the bottom (photos to come) it will bolt up in this configuration and the only issue i see would be it getting wet from water splashing up on it, but I don't drive in the rain so....
It is a real nice fit like this, nothing touching anywhere except the bolt up point.

Post by **BRENT in 10-uh-C** » Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:58 am

Loftbed wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:47 pm

Loftbed wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:29 pm
I received the Modern starter this afternoon, it fits but is tight up against the block. I understand that it can be rotated 360 degrees on its axis, but how? It didn't come with any instructions and what is on Snyders site doesn't cover rotation!
anyone have the proceedure?

Rod
....the only issue i see would be it getting wet from water splashing up on it, but I don't drive in the rain so....
It is a real nice fit like this, nothing touching anywhere except the bolt up point.

Is there room to install the engine splash pans (-as originally equipped??

)

Post by **Loftbed** » Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:51 pm

Here is a photo comparison of old and new as well as some installed photos, I've still got to wire it up. above I stated that I rotated it 180 degrees, actually on 90 degrees.

Rod

Post by **J1MGOLDEN** » Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:28 pm

Rod, your phot appears to show what I always suspected, that small gear is always in contact with the ring gear and the connection happens inside the starter case.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:30 pm

J1MGOLDEN wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:28 pm
Rod, your phot appears to show what I always suspected, that small gear is always in contact with the ring gear and the connection happens inside the starter case.

No, it's not in constant mesh with the ring gear. How could that possibly work? Read the posts above...

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:27 pm

If that's the case, that poor little gear is going to be revving about 20,000 RPM when the car is going 30 MPH.

Post by **Loftbed** » Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:50 pm

J1MGOLDEN wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:28 pm
Rod, your phot appears to show what I always suspected, that small gear is always in contact with the ring gear and the connection happens inside the starter case.

Sorry But it is not in contact with the ring gear, the photo is misleading. I could actually reach in an move the gear on the starter.

Rod

Post by **Loftbed** » Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:53 pm

Also if you look real close, you will see one of the ring gear teeth is overlapping one of the starter teeth.

Post by **Bryant** » Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:10 pm

Please try not to be rude. We are all in this together. Here is a better view.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:41 pm

What makes the gear move in and out of mesh with the flywheel when the starter is used?
Allan from down under.

Post by **Bryant** » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:08 pm

I would assume that it is like any modern starter. It just has a longer “snout”

Post by **rofirestone** » Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:08 pm

Another choice is to have Buckeye Electric convert your original starter over to 12 V.

Post by **DHort** » Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:42 am

If the gear teeth match up exactly, what is it on the starter that makes it slide over so the mesh occurs? Those teeth look pretty straight cut.

Post by **John kuehn** » Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:03 pm

I guess the assumption is that 6 volt is defective and a 12 volt starter is better. From what I know and experienced 6 volts is fine. If your having trouble with it and put in a 12 volt starter the trouble issue is still there.
It would seem to me converting an original starter to 12 volts would be the thing to do if that’s what you want.
But if you do make sure you figure out the issue you had with 6 volts before you do it.

As far as the modern starter is concerned using a starter gear that would match the original flywheel better would be the thing to do. BUT what do I know.

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:53 pm

For the first 2000 miles of Model T ownership I had occasional trouble with my original starter and for the last 3500 miles absolutely ZERO issues with the 12 volt WOSP starter. With the original starter I enjoyed the "Model T Experience," repairs by the roadside or parking lot (3 times) having to push it when it wouldn't start (4 times.)

The original starters are not the pinnacle of technological development. If they were, there would be no market for replacement parts. That said, if your original starter works well for you there is no reason to run out and change it. Nobody is suggesting that you do. Let's face it, the addition of a starter to the Model T was a great and welcome advancement 103 years ago.

The modern geared starter is an advanced design compared to the original Ford starter. It engages smoothly and being geared, easily turns the engine over, something my original starter wouldn't do when the engine was hot. Since the motor doesn't energize before the starter gear is fully engaged I suggest that the modern starter causes less wear and tear to the ring gear. I like it, but that's my choice. I won't criticize your choice if you don't criticize mine. To quote Rodney King, "Can we all just get along?"

Post by **Henry K. Lee** » Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:46 pm

BINGO Tim!

Humbled Hank!

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:00 pm

Tim are you really saying that an original starter should be expected to last beyond 100 years? Will the WSOP be operating in 100 years, being that it is such an advanced design? ...and if it does, will there be an aftermarket supply of parts? Doubtful, but little do I care, since I at best have somewhat less than 100 years left in me...

The only thing I learned from the above is that who ever was repairing that starter, wasn't doing a very good job of it and that maybe you should get your money back. There are a number of people who can and do make these things work with generally 100% reliability, but there are scores of folks who will do the work cheaper, knowing that they'll likely never be taken to task for poor workmanship, particularly when the general wisdom is "these #$%& things can't be made to work reliably". Another myth-come-true.

A marketing to claim that a new, modern starter works better than a 100 year old worn out starter is not terribly strong praise...still, if it keeps your car running and you are happy, then it has served a purpose, and the sales pitch has obviously found friendly ears.

Someday, a young lad will ask: "Grandpa, why can't we go for a ride in the old car?" and the answer will be "my boy, it's because Mitsubishi no longer makes a starter for it". And here we all thought it would be because in the future, you couldn't buy gas for it.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:45 am

I believe that many 6 volt starters suffer needless abuse from an inadequate power supply due to poor quality cables, poor grounds, and poor starter switches. Inadequate or aged batteries often compound the problem. In the case of the Model T, the operator needs to manage the spark control properly, and it's necessary to step down firmly on the starter switch to make and hold a solid, one-time contact, rather than several contacts. It's also important to get off the starter switch at the proper moment when the engine does start. Keeping the engine in good tune and learning how to best start it under various conditions, and keep it running once started, will keep a good T starter working well for a very long time.

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:59 pm

Pat is absolutely correct. A properly installed and maintained six volt starter works great! In my few years in the hobby, I've seen many guys have troubles due to using too small a gauge copper cable, bad connections, bad switches, poor grounds, weak batteries, etc. All correctable issues.

In my case, I was starting with a car that never had a starter. I hide my little AGM battery inside a 100 year old wooden box under the back seat of my touring. I chose 12 volts because I wanted to run certain LED bulbs and interface with my phone, GPS, etc. 12 volts trying to run a six volt starter just didn't work well for me.... certainly not as well as if I had installed a six-volt electrical system that mimicked the original Ford design. I was wedded to going with 12 volts so I needed a solution.... That said, I kept all the original stuff if the next custodian wants to remove the starter and return the car to original.

Scott, I won't name who I got my six volt starter from but they are often mentioned on this forum as a reputable rebuilder. Since I have only been in the hobby since 2018, I don't have the advantage of the years of knowledge, experience and connections that many of you have. I learn something every day but at age 72, I'll never catch up. All I know is I wanted a more reliable and trouble-free starter which I've had since I installed the WOSP.

I would be really surprised if the WOSP starter in it's current form will be around in 100 years but I suspect some of the original Ford starters will. I do believe that other modern starters may come along to take the WOSP's place, however. Either way, I expect the WOSP will outlast me, the car too. One thing I like about the WOSP is that the actual starter motor is used across a lot of platforms, only the "nose" to adapt it to a T is different. The fact that the adaption was developed by guys in England who love the Model T as much as we do is a big thing in it's favor.

To me, the important thing is that the Model T people I've met strive to keep their Model T's running while maintaining as much "original" as is possible or practical. Few of us would knowingly go touring in the mountains in a stock T with babbitt thrust washers in the rear end....that's a recipe for disaster. We each judge our cars and make those changes needed for safety and reliability that we're comfortable with.

Fordwright · Post by **Fordwright** » Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:20 pm

I've always assumed that most 12 volt starters were wired the same as 6 volt starters. When cars converted to 12 volts from 6, they changed the bulbs, rewired the generators and wired a resistor to the ignition coils. The starters stayed the same, they only cranked faster on 12 volts.

Post by **Original Smith** » Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:23 pm

Total nonsense!

Post by **Bryant** » Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:02 pm

I agree with the nonsense part. The original question was has anyone used the starter and what they thought of it. So now the author has purchased and installed the starter I would like to know what he thinks about how it works. Later anyone interested in it can wade through the nonsense this topic has birthed and come up with their own conclusion on if it’s right for there application. Maybe history will reveal the starter to be on the list of the many accessories the Model T has Inspired.

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:40 pm

Did I mention you want to lube a WOSP starter with Marvel Mystery Oil? Just kidding....

Ford resisted the idea of self-starters and came late to the party. A little history here:
"In the summer of 1910 a woman driving an automobile across the old Belle Island Bridge in Detroit, stalled her engine.... A man who happened by just then stopped and offered to crank the woman's engine for her. He was Byron T. Carter, maker of the automobile called the Cartercar. Unfortunately the spark was not retarded. So the engine kicked back and the flying crank broke Carter's jaw.... Carter was not a young man, and complications arising out of the accident caused his death. Now, it happened that Carter was a friend of Henry Leland, head man at Cadillac. Soon afterward, in Leland's office, Kettering remarked that he thought it would be possible to do away with the hand crank, sometimes called the 'arm-strong starter,' by cranking cars electrically. In Leland's distress at the loss of his friend Carter, he took up the suggestion at once."

That was 1910.... Ford first offered a starter as an option in 1919. For a first attempt it wasn't bad although the design went thru a multitude of changes after the Model T. That any survive today is testament to the dedicated people who restore and maintain them.

Post by **Susanne** » Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:55 pm

I had a real problem once with the original starter on my car, seemed to be damaged beyond repair, but the doc gave me a cortisone shot in the affected elbow, put me on motrin for the back strain, and it cleared up just fine in about 6 months...

Post by **Henry K. Lee** » Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:32 pm

I still do not understand why grown men get their panties in such a big knot over a simply bolt on accessory upgrade that does not effect the value of the car. Please remake two piece valves, white metal rear end thrust spacers, wood bands, and all that other "Original" as "Henry Ford" made it to preserve the integrity of being original to specs. Oh, and a OF Stromberg carburetor is a bolt on accessory item of the same. A lot of people have tried multiple times in rebuilding original starters and generators with bad luck or inferior replacement parts. As for generators and cut outs, myself included, had enough of hung up cut outs causing over charging killing batteries or worst, spitting solder out of a rebuilt generator all over a simple device failing.

Isn't time to support each other and show respect and have an alternative to bad past experiences. It is still a Model T that someone is enjoying their way, not yours.

Humbled Hank in Tin-A-See

Fordwright · Post by **Fordwright** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:34 am

https://www.hotrodwires.com/how-to-conv ... %20circuit.

Post by **Loftbed** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:35 pm

As the OP on this thread, I'd like to ask the critics if they still think that adding this starter to this car has changed its originality (see below)? Also I bought it in this configuration and broke the Bendix thereby necessitating some kind of change! I seriously doubt that keeping the original starter on this car would have added to its originality!!

SPECS:
• 1915 engine produced in Sept engine # 900633.
• Early Scat Crankshaft*
• “Wildly” modified Model “A” Camshaft*
• Larger exhaust and intake valves*
• New old stock Sherman “super fire” 8:1 Aluminum Head*
• Carter BB1 carburetor*
• Model A rods.
• Custom pistons*
• Bosch front plate.
• VW 009 Distributor with special drive.
• Wood transmission bands
• Custom Exhaust & Intake.
• 12v conversion.
*Indicates information supplied by Larry Blair (LOCO LARRY) Engine builder

• Fairground racing chassis and seat. **by “Pete Eastwood”
• Franklin Steering.**
• Tapered front and rear springs.**
• Front axel spindles.**
• Split wishbone**
• Body number plate**
• Tail light**
• Special brake cross shafts**
• Rear radius rods**
• New Axels**
• Shortened drive shaft with sealed pinion bearings**
• Torpedo hood without sides**
• Chevy finned drums**
• Four restored Buffalo wheels**
• New Monochi Hubs and nut, bearings and seals**
• New tires and tubes
• New 13-14 flat tube “Brassworks brass radiator**
** indicates work performed by Pete Eastwood (PWOOD)

Post by **Loftbed** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:46 pm

Bryant wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:02 pm
I agree with the nonsense part. The original question was has anyone used the starter and what they thought of it. So now the author has purchased and installed the starter I would like to know what he thinks about how it works. Later anyone interested in it can wade through the nonsense this topic has birthed and come up with their own conclusion on if it’s right for there application. Maybe history will reveal the starter to be on the list of the many accessories the Model T has Inspired.

Bryant,
Yes I have it installed and it turns the engine over just fine, I can't speak to how well it starts the engine as I am awaiting a rebuild of the Carter carburetor. Soon we will know! I will make a video once I have all the pieces in order.

Rod

Post by **Bryant** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:01 pm

Hey great! So that’s your speedster ehh? I saved a picture of it a while back. I’ve seen a lot of them Recently. And I have to say it is my favorite! No offense to anyone else’s. There all neat. Can’t wait to see/hear a video.

Post by **speedytinc** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:03 pm

Not really a critic. It's your T do what you want.
If i was looking @ that beauty & saw philips screws, it would loose its period correctness.
Loose the 2010 era alternator & starter. Keep it, as least visually, era correct. Especially that both show. They are RADICALLY OUT OF PLACE. And unnecessarily so. An original starter converted & a stock generator is so little effort. I dont get why this beautiful racer has to be defaced. I could not do it to this beauty. Its the difference between a neat & utterly bitchin racer.
JMHO. Dont let my opinion or anybody else"s control you. If it makes you happy.
Remember you asked! Other wise I stay quiet.

Post by **Loftbed** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:32 pm

speedytinc wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:03 pm
Not really a critic. It's your T do what you want.
If i was looking @ that beauty & saw philips screws, it would loose its period correctness.
Loose the 2010 era alternator & starter. Keep it, as least visually, era correct. Especially that both show. They are RADICALLY OUT OF PLACE. And unnecessarily so. An original starter converted & a stock generator is so little effort. I dont get why this beautiful racer has to be defaced. I could not do it to this beauty. Its the difference between a neat & utterly bitchin racer.
JMHO. Dont let my opinion or anybody else"s control you. If it makes you happy.
Remember you asked! Other wise I stay quiet.

Considering that Pete Eastwood was the original builder and Loco Larry did the engine, that was all I needed to know to purchase the car, it is period correct enough to satisfy me, Oh yey, Don Small of Bell auto parts was the owner prior to his passing.

Tim Rogers · Post by **Tim Rogers** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:41 pm

That header pipe is a work of art! Going to need one for my project...

: ml.jpg (32.88 KiB) Viewed 18411 times

Post by **speedytinc** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:54 pm

Loftbed wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:32 pm

speedytinc wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:03 pm
Not really a critic. It's your T do what you want.
If i was looking @ that beauty & saw philips screws, it would loose its period correctness.
Loose the 2010 era alternator & starter. Keep it, as least visually, era correct. Especially that both show. They are RADICALLY OUT OF PLACE. And unnecessarily so. An original starter converted & a stock generator is so little effort. I dont get why this beautiful racer has to be defaced. I could not do it to this beauty. Its the difference between a neat & utterly bitchin racer.
JMHO. Dont let my opinion or anybody else"s control you. If it makes you happy.
Remember you asked! Other wise I stay quiet.
Considering that Pete Eastwood was the original builder and Loco Larry did the engine, that was all I needed to know to purchase the car, it is period correct enough to satisfy me, Oh yey, Don Small of Bell auto parts was the owner prior to his passing.

I know Pete & Larry also. I can trust the build & would be proud to own her.
If it came with an alternator & "that" starter, I would not let ANYBODY see it until & removed them. Everything else looks fantastic. Is all in the details. Thats the issue with me.

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:20 pm

I like what Hank said a few posts previous. He summed it up pretty good.

Post by **Loftbed** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:27 pm

speedytinc wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:54 pm

Loftbed wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:32 pm

speedytinc wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:03 pm
Not really a critic. It's your T do what you want.
If i was looking @ that beauty & saw philips screws, it would loose its period correctness.
Loose the 2010 era alternator & starter. Keep it, as least visually, era correct. Especially that both show. They are RADICALLY OUT OF PLACE. And unnecessarily so. An original starter converted & a stock generator is so little effort. I dont get why this beautiful racer has to be defaced. I could not do it to this beauty. Its the difference between a neat & utterly bitchin racer.
JMHO. Dont let my opinion or anybody else"s control you. If it makes you happy.
Remember you asked! Other wise I stay quiet.
Considering that Pete Eastwood was the original builder and Loco Larry did the engine, that was all I needed to know to purchase the car, it is period correct enough to satisfy me, Oh yey, Don Small of Bell auto parts was the owner prior to his passing.
I know Pete & Larry also. I can trust the build & would be proud to own her.
If it came with an alternator & "that" starter, I would not let ANYBODY see it until & removed them. Everything else looks fantastic. Is all in the details. Thats the issue with me.

Well, I added "that" starter and Larry the alternator, so if it was good enough for him, it's good enough for me!
On a side note, in my case, there is probably not anyone (that I know of) who is within 50 miles of me, who would know what he is looking at with respect to this car. Nor do I display it anywhere other than in my own driveway, so there is a very low likelihood of it offending anyone, and if it does, I don't care!!
Rod

Post by **Bryant** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:03 pm

maybe a topic drift but looks like wosp also makes a 12v dynamo. Part# LMDMODT001. Maybe it’s really about the look? If they made the starters/alternator’s to look the part would you use it? If you go 12v that is.

Kevin Pharis · Post by **Kevin Pharis** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:53 pm

I have been strongly considering one of these WOSP alternators... Was thinking bout making a new end plate with a Datsun type oil pump integrated. Would be able to get rid of my belt driven alternator, appear more righter, and have less primitive internal components...

Does anybody currently run the WOSP Dynator...?

Dan McEachern · Post by **Dan McEachern** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:16 pm

Paint the new starter black and most folks will never know its not the original style!

Post by **Loftbed** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:34 pm

Dan McEachern wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:16 pm
Paint the new starter black and most folks will never know its not the original style!

My exact thought! Infact the same goes for the Alt, now where did I put that paint brush...

Post by **Henry K. Lee** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:43 pm

Rod..., in the secret spot! It is hanging out with the missing sock the dryer ate!

ThreePedalTapDancer · Post by **ThreePedalTapDancer** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:47 pm

I agree with painting it black. Use a good satin black instead of gloss black and enjoy the car. I have seen all manners of antique cars that are driven frequently with modified gear reduction starters on them. Some are camouflaged with clever covers or shells that often confuse and confound those that are offended.

greenacres36 · Post by **greenacres36** » Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:02 pm

It always kills me how people judge about other peoples cars. That’s the problem with the world today everybody sticks their nose in everybody else’s business. I just like old cars for what they are. I never understood where the line is drawn about what new is acceptable and what is not. The gear drive starter is not for me but I don’t care if someone else puts one on. It’s not like our cars are all priceless works of art. Granted some are. There were in fact 15 million of them made I’m sure a few can be spared for personal enjoyment.

What about all the people out there to run flat tube radiators in cars that were designed to have round tube radiators? That is a visible change for the improvement of drivability. The list to go on and on. I like to drive my car. I like to work on my car. But mostly, I like to drive my car and relax after a long week of work.

For what it’s worth, I still run a round tube radiator. LOL and frankly I got some flack from some of my friends for purchasing a round tube radiator stating that my car would run hot. It does not. Wow!

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:38 pm

greenacres36 wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:02 pm
It always kills me how people judge about other peoples cars. That’s the problem with the world today everybody sticks their nose in everybody else’s business. I just like old cars for what they are. I never understood where the line is drawn about what new is acceptable and what is not. The gear drive starter is not for me but I don’t care if someone else puts one on. It’s not like our cars are all priceless works of art. Granted some are. There were in fact 15 million of them made I’m sure a few can be spared for personal enjoyment.

What about all the people out there to run flat tube radiators in cars that were designed to have round tube radiators? That is a visible change for the improvement of drivability. The list to go on and on. I like to drive my car. I like to work on my car. But mostly, I like to drive my car and relax after a long week of work.

For what it’s worth, I still run a round tube radiator. LOL and frankly I got some flack from some of my friends for purchasing a round tube radiator stating that my car would run hot. It does not. Wow!

Yup...

JohnH · Post by **JohnH** » Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:19 pm

Having seen one of these starters on someone's car, I thought it was a very well built and designed accessory. In particular, it allows the use of 12V without having to modify an original starter, or damaging a 6V starter & ring gear. (BTW I'm not a supporter of 12V, but fully accept that some wish to use this voltage in their car). For the purists, I think their energies would be better directed at saving all the Model T's that have been fed into the smelters, or left in fields to rot - cars which will never drive again.

Poppie · Post by **Poppie** » Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:55 pm

JohnH,
We cant help the Model T's that have been fed into the smelters, but we car help save the vehicles that are out in the fields and properties and get them undercover.
The thing that annoys and disappoints me is the complete/near complete cars that gets PARTERED OUT because of the $$$$ greed.....n

JohnH · Post by **JohnH** » Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:45 pm

Poppie wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:55 pm
The thing that annoys and disappoints me is the complete/near complete cars that gets PARTERED OUT because of the $$$$ greed.....n

So very true!

Post by **TRDxB2** » Thu Feb 10, 2022 1:13 am

JohnH wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:45 pm

Poppie wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:55 pm
The thing that annoys and disappoints me is the complete/near complete cars that gets PARTERED OUT because of the $$$$ greed.....n
So very true!

Where have all the T parts gone?
Long time passing.
Where have all the T parts gone?
Long time ago.
Where have all the T parts gone?
They've gone to restore the other ones.

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:37 am

One of the occasional joys of the hobby is the person who comes up and admires your car and says "My -family member- has some old Model T parts in a barn we need to do something with" and you investigate and find a near complete car. Hasn't happened to me yet but has to some friends of mine....still hopeful. Given the opportunity I'll do my part.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:30 pm

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:37 am
One of the occasional joys of the hobby is the person who comes up and admires your car and says "My -family member- has some old Model T parts in a barn we need to do something with" and you investigate and find a near complete car. Hasn't happened to me yet but has to some friends of mine....still hopeful. Given the opportunity I'll do my part.

Tim,

Reminds of the story of such a thing. If you'll all forgive the thread drift... An early Ford collector had been looking for a 1903 Model A for some years. He searched far & wide. He finally found one! While working on it in his driveway, his postman walked up and briefly admired the car. The postman stated, "Wow. Very cool. Just like the one the lady has on the next street." The guy thought, "Ya, right..." How many times have we all heard this, only to find out it's a 1930 Chevrolet... After a repeat of this comment a few days later, he though he'd better look deeper into what the postman was referring to. You guessed it, he now owns two 1903 Ford Model A's. The second one being located around the corner from his home all the time he was searching.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled starter rantings.

Post by **vech** » Thu Feb 10, 2022 1:35 pm

Yes, I am using one of their alternators, in conjunction with Snyder's 12v geared starter in our '22 coupe.

I have had it in the car at least 2 years. Works great. (until the crankshaft broke last November) As a matter of fact, Tomorrow I am heading down to the machine shop to pick up my new engine, with a scat crank, Chaffin's new cam, adjustable lifters, new rods, new EGGE domed pistons, and new valves.

I went to the trouble of making a sheet metal bracket, so I could install the regulator cover on the alternator, for a better "look".

Post by **Bryant** » Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:14 pm

vech wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 10, 2022 1:35 pm
Yes, I am using one of their alternators, in conjunction with Snyder's 12v geared starter in our '22 coupe.

I have had it in the car at least 2 years. Works great. (until the crankshaft broke last November) As a matter of fact, Tomorrow I am heading down to the machine shop to pick up my new engine, with a scat crank, Chaffin's new cam, adjustable lifters, new rods, new EGGE domed pistons, and new valves.

I went to the trouble of making a sheet metal bracket, so I could install the regulator cover on the alternator, for a better "look".

Now is that an alternator or a 12v generator?

Post by **Henry K. Lee** » Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:52 pm

Nice work Vech!!!!!!!! The BMW is running great because of your parts!

Hank

Post by **Loftbed** » Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:19 pm

Well I finally got the carburetor back and installed and was able to try out the new "Wosp" starter. Wowsers folks it is indeed as advertised and as promised weeks ago here is a video of it starting the 1915 super hopped up Racer/Speedster. https://youtu.be/oJxL2G7hvSU

I've got a little dialing in to do although I suspect some of the "rough running" is due to the custom grind of the Cam. I did manage a short run up the street in this bad boy and let me tell you "Wild Horses" comes to mind. Not sure if I have the kahonies for all that it wants to deliver.

Rod

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