Installing 21” steel reinforced beaded tires

[jiminbartow]

As many of you have already read, I am installing new 21” Goodyear tires (with steel reinforced beads) and flaps onto the split rims of my 1926 coupe. Is it remotely possible (has anyone here done it) to install them onto the split rims without splitting the rims and keeping them locked. The lock latch’s are very old and delicate and could break off if I try to unlock them after being locked for 52 years. I have also heard that the rims can become distorted if the rim spreader is positioned wrong and I have never used my rim spreader and am not sure how to position it. I don’t want to risk unlocking the split rims and using the rim spreader, but if I must, I will, if there is no other way. Jim Patrick

6FD995C0-A116-4C00-B954-1B4954033409.jpeg (22.04 KiB) Viewed 5319 times

[Tim Rogers]

Jim,

The setup below is far superior to any period rim tool and won't tweak your wheel...

rim.GIF (133.66 KiB) Viewed 5311 times

[jiminbartow]

Looks good Tim. I have seen that before and will work on that today. I will start by making a template of the curvature. I have the 1926 Jack that came with my coupe. I have also seen the turnbuckle method, but I don’t want to weaken, bend or break my lugs. Thank you. Jim Patrick

AEED619C-3900-4A5D-816D-7DC368FB39F0.jpeg (15.14 KiB) Viewed 5288 times

[RajoRacer]

I don't believe one can install the tire without collapsing the rim.

[jiminbartow]

Hi Steve. I am coming to that realization. Using my tire irons, tried going over the lip of the locked rim lip and it is just too tight. I’m just going to have to take my time and try to eliminate anything that might damage my rims. Jim Patrick

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Jim,

The setup below is far superior to any period rim tool and won't tweak your wheel...


rim.GIF

Tim,

How do you collapse the rim with that set-up?

[MichaelPawelek]

I rode around on split rims for five years before I needed to work on the tires and on collapsing found 3 of the 4 rims had no locking mechanism left.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

As many of you have already read, I am installing new 21” Goodyear tires (with steel reinforced beads) and flaps onto the split rims of my 1926 coupe. Is it remotely possible (has anyone here done it) to install them onto the split rims without splitting the rims and keeping them locked. The lock latch’s are very old and delicate and could break off if I try to unlock them after being locked for 52 years. I have also heard that the rims can become distorted if the rim spreader is positioned wrong and I have never used my rim spreader and am not sure how to position it. I don’t want to risk unlocking the split rims and using the rim spreader, but if I must, I will, if there is no other way. Jim Patrick


6FD995C0-A116-4C00-B954-1B4954033409.jpeg

Jim,

You need to split the rim. Honestly, if your locks are so delicate that using them will cause them to break, then you probably shouldn't be using those rims at all. Can you post a photo of the rim locks?

[TXGOAT2]

If it's not a drop center rim, and it's not, you have to break it down.

[jiminbartow]

Jerry. The revolving lock latch was held in place by a 3/8”-16 bolt, cut off from behind. I tried to loosen the bolt so I coyldturn the latch and it twisted off. It would not go back in, so I redrilled the hole and tapped it with a 3/8”-16 tap, screwed in a new bolt and cut it off and rounded it off. The rim is still very strong and substantial and no, so is the lock. Jim Patrick

[RajoRacer]

Good show ! My only other recommendation is to bolt the rim w/new rubber onto the wheel PRIOR to airing up to 30 lbs. !

[jiminbartow]

Yes. I have new thick rubber flaps for each new wheel tucked in under the beads after the tube. Since I will be splitting the rims now, the old hard tires, tubes and flaps should be easier to remove…I hope. I would like to save them. It is not everyday that you see a set of 52 year old tires. That is older than the original 44 year old 1926 tires that were on my coupe from the factory when I bought it in 1970, but they were in much worse shape. Jim Patrick

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Good show ! My only other recommendation is to bolt the rim w/new rubber onto the wheel PRIOR to airing up to 30 lbs. !

Excellent advice!

Jim,

Looks good! I kind of think those bolts where originally rivets, but no matter, your repair looks good. BTW, the latch plate is supposed to rotate without the need to remove or loosen the bolt/rivet. Usually, a hammer and punch to swing the latch plate 90 degrees, allows the tongue to disengage.

[jiminbartow]

My rim is barely distorting and still round as I try and force the bead on. The non-locking side has only moved a half inch beyond the end of the lock side and the rim is still very round and is still in contact with the opposing end. Am I supposed to force the non-lock side out of round in order get the tire on? I have gotten it halfway on, but have reached the point to where I cannot get the tire iron under the bead. Seems like I have seen split rims with the non-lock side much further in than mine, but I am reluctant to force it too much out of round. Jim Patrick

[jab35]

you can safely slide the latch side over the non latch side to the point where the latch tang touches the tube stem without permanently deforming the rim. I usually wire the two adjacent lugs to hold it in that position before I begin to mount the tire jb

[Wayne Sheldon]

The latch lever you show also I do not think is original. Never seen one quite like it. Also, it looks good, functions well, and should be fine.

Just to spell it out. Tires designed like these, straight side, tight fit when in position on the rim, cannot be stretched over the side of the rim without SOME amount of center drop or removeable ring, or collapsible rim. Some fancy modern low profile tires are engineered to BARELY stretch with a minimal center drop. One of my wife's cars had rims that I with my old tools could not break down or install, because the stretch required could not be achieved without a special tool, or maybe ruining the rim. But it still required the center drop.
I have over the years run into a fair number of cases where someone did force 1920s style collapsible rims and tires apart on modern hydraulic tire machines because they and the tire shop did not know how to do them the right way. In every case, the tires were destroyed. Tires without steel inside the beads break easily if stretched with enough force. Tires with steel wires in the bead also break, just not so easily.
I have a car that needs restoration. It has been in the family for a long time, but for a number of family reasons not yet restored. The pre-WW2 tires were barely adequate to roll it around, but over the years became too hard to work well even for limited rolling around. So I needed to find some "less old" "rollers" for the car. The size is not an easy to find common era size (20 inch, anyone have any they would like to get rid of?), so I searched a lot of swap meets for anything that would work. One 0 inch tire I found looked to be in fine shape, but a bit undersize for the semi-large car. However, I figured it should be okay as a roller. It came with a good looking newish inner tube, so I mounted it onto my car's split rim, and began to air it up. It seemed to fit the rim just fine, until I got about ten pounds of air in it. Then, it didn't look quite right. I quit adding air at about fifteen pounds, and began pushing the car back into its parking space. About half way into its parking space, I glanced over at it, and saw the bead rising above the side of the rim! I pulled the car back out, and before I stopped pulling, the tube blew out under the bead that had lifted completely out of the rim for half way around the rim! Ruined a good inner tube.
It was then that I knew. Someone had used a modern hydraulic tire machine to try to force this tire over the sides of a rim. That poor 20 inch rim with only 15 psi had stretched out to almost a 22 inch rim size and almost literally fell off the 20 inch rim it was supposed to fit. I did not need to collapse the rim to remove the tire.
All the little steel wires inside that bead had stretched until they broke. Later, I actually cut into the bead and looked at the wires. Interesting how they broke.
Before I cut into it? I let the tire sit for a couple days. The heavy rubber in the bead? Shrunk back down to its original 20 inch size. It actually looked like a good tire again. That was one of the reasons I cut into the tire. In part to destroy it so that nobody else could be suckered into trying to use it. And in part because I wanted to see what happened to the steel wires. A given wire would stretch an inch to two inches, then break. When the bead shrunk back down again, the breaks would slide alongside each other overlapping the once single pieces. I imagine the stretching had to tear the wires from the rubber, leaving enough space for the shrinking to force them to slowly overlap. I cut into almost a foot of the bead, and examined a half a dozen breaks, all like that.

[jiminbartow]

Thank you Wayne and everyone. I have been watching several videos today on mounting 21” tires on split rims. One opened the rim with a rim spreader and another used the turnbuckle method. I will be using my rim spreader to open the rim and will close it the same way. All mentioned opening the non-locking side up to the stem hole without distorting the rim, but no further. All used baby powder liberally and all lubricated the bead with a slick solution. One recommended soap and water and the other with WD-40. I will lube with WD-40. I just returned from Walmart where I got a couple of containers of baby powder and WD-40 and I think I will have better success tomorrow. Thanks again. Jim Patrick

[Humblej]

Jim, I think you are going to have a problem with that latch and bolt, I would suggest replacing it with a correct latch and hold it in place with a rivet. The rim is not thick enough to hold a bolt. I have seen split rims that used a bolt to lock the latch, but if I remember there was a boss on the rim that gave it more thickness. The attached picture is what your latch should look like.

20210923_143507.jpg (91.5 KiB) Viewed 5084 times

[Allan]

Canadian rims have a different lock mechanism. It looks much like a 26-7 T door hinge. The hinge pin is driven out to collapse the rim and replaced when the tyre is fitted and the rim expanded again. It's a nice positive lock.
Allan from down under.

[jiminbartow]

Thank you Jeff. That 3/8” bolt holding the original latch is not original, but is a 60 year old repair to the the low profile rivet that broke off many years ago. The head of the bolt I replaced the broken one with is the same height as the old bolt head and it mounted onto the spoked hub just fine, however, if, for some reason the bolt head will prevent the rim from fitting onto the spoked hub, I can lower the profile of the bolt head by grinding it down to a rivet sized profile, using an angle grinder. As it is, I will probably need to take off the bolt and latch, so the split rim will open up to the stem hole. Without doing that, I believe the bolt head will stop the split rim from opening up as much as it needs to. If I need to repair the other rims the same way, I will use Stainless steel 3/8”-16 bolts. Jim Patrick

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Jim,

You are using the rim spreader to collapse the rim, correct? The name "spreader" is something of a misnomer, as it's also used to squeeze/collapse the rim in order to slip the tire on.

[jiminbartow]

Yes Jerry. I found out it is a rim collapser as well as a rim spreader in one of those videos today. I’m looking forward to trying it out tomorrow. Jim Patrick

[Susanne]

Just to add my 2 cents - on the early split rims you have to collapse the rims to get the tire on... it's why they (eventually) made drop center rims, so you didn't need to un-align your rims to put your tires on. DO NOT try to put on SS 4.40-21's on split rims without "breaking" your rims, you will either break your tire beads OR destroy your rims.

[jiminbartow]

Thank you Susanne. After all I have read, heard and watched on videos, I wouldn’t think of it now. Jim Patrick

[zaborro]

Omg, this is really some work! I can see how difficult it must be to work with tires as the disc is totally bent. What I was thinking about is that you might still look for the new discs. Otherwise the car won't get too far withoiut losing pressure in tires. I was browsing all-weather tires some time ago https://tireplanet.ca/all-weather-tires and saw many different sizes and models and tires for literally any car. So maybe they can be helpful.