1908/09 Model T

[Been Here Before]

What documentation is available that the much discussed Model T No. 2 and 220 are the actual cars constructed by the Ford factory?

[TRDxB2]

What documentation is available that the much discussed Model T No. 2 and 220 are the actual cars constructed by the Ford factory?
Ford_Model_T_-_Serial_No._220,_Built_December_1908.jpg

After reading the following link about No. 2 you may need to rephrase your question and qualify what you mean by"actual".
Since it was restored and parts replaced the answer has to be "NO" not the "actual" car.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1545253902
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The above article also mentions the existence of a No.22
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The answer to #220 is a definite absolutely "NO", the body was extensively "modified"
http://classiccardb.com/ford/126723-190 ... cular.html
"1909 Ford Model T - The Legendary #220. This is one of the earliest surviving Ford Model T's in the world today. Built in December, 908 (prior to Ford's introduction of the assembly line) at Ford's Piquette Avenue factory in Detroit, the early history of #220 is today unknown. As we are told, y 1951, d Hausgen of St. Louis had acquired the car through his uncle from a dealership in Illinois. By that time the rear portion of the original Touring body had been transformed into a Runabout, with a gas tank and toolbox at the rear."

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Hopefully Kim Dobbins will chime in here. He is a past owner of 220 and has been extremely honest about its level of authenticity. In most circles, it's arguably considered to be one of the most "complete" of the very earliest T's. Do NOT equate it in any way with #2!

I'll add that there is an old photo, which is claimed to be 220 "as found" and looking like a Runabout. Closer examination shows that it's not a photo of 220. That said, the rear body portion was indeed removed at some time in its life and replaced with an authentic example. Again, hoping for Kim's input.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

What documentation is available that the much discussed Model T No. 2 and 220 are the actual cars constructed by the Ford factory?
Ford_Model_T_-_Serial_No._220,_Built_December_1908.jpg

After reading the following link about No. 2 you may need to rephrase your question and qualify what you mean by"actual".
Since it was restored and parts replaced the answer has to be "NO" not the "actual" car.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1545253902
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The above article also mentions the existence of a No.22
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The answer to #220 is a definite absolutely "NO", the body was extensively "modified"
http://classiccardb.com/ford/126723-190 ... cular.html
"1909 Ford Model T - The Legendary #220. This is one of the earliest surviving Ford Model T's in the world today. Built in December, 908 (prior to Ford's introduction of the assembly line) at Ford's Piquette Avenue factory in Detroit, the early history of #220 is today unknown. As we are told, y 1951, d Hausgen of St. Louis had acquired the car through his uncle from a dealership in Illinois. By that time the rear portion of the original Touring body had been transformed into a Runabout, with a gas tank and toolbox at the rear."

Frank,

From your same source on 220....

"It is also considered one of the few that still consists of most of its original 1908 components."

[Herb Iffrig]

Sometime in the last couple of years I found an article from a magazine that had a photo of Ed Hausgen in his early Model T at a car show somewhere around St. Louis. That is the earliest photo of no 220 that I know of. The magazine was from the middle fifties. I still have it somewhere around here. I knew Ed Hausgen in his later years, and he told me the story about the cat when he had it. I got that magazine at a flea market in Ed's hometown. Iy might have even been his and sold after he passed away.

[Alan Long]

Would Engine No 3038 be a valuable vehicle or having any significance. The good book tells me it’s May 1909 and LHD
Alan

[TRDxB2]

What documentation is available that the much discussed Model T No. 2 and 220 are the actual cars constructed by the Ford factory?
Ford_Model_T_-_Serial_No._220,_Built_December_1908.jpg

I don't mean to belittle the efforts to immortalize the infamous #220 but only to answer the original question - "Is there documentation that it is the actual car constructed by the Ford Factory". If you disregard the number in answering the question to the state of the car described below there can be only one answer to that question regardless of how many original parts it has. If that is truly #220 as Glen Chaffin has documented then most of what is above the frame is not original to the car. The photo shows shock absorbers that eliminate the original perches.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1439509779
By Glen Chaffin July 01, 2015
I finally found the photo of Ben Snyder's Ford #220 as it was before restoration. The car was purchased in 1966. It was a modified mess and had been converted from a touring into a roadster with gas tank and tool box at the rear. The original rear seat was missing but Ben had another original rear seat so no problem. The car was restored by Al Vivian a former short term employee of Bill Harrah and turned out beautiful. I have the original steering column from this car as Ben apparently had a better one to use in the restoration but the one I have is in very good condition. The car was sold to Bill Harrah shortly before Ben's death on the stipulation that the car would remain in the Harrah collection. However, the car was sold at auction after Harrah's death. The car was eventually bought by Kim Dobbins and then by Fred Lau of Portland, Oregon. Fred recently passed away in 1914 and I am not sure where the car is now. This is an interesting car and has been featured in several articles and books.

220.png (291.04 KiB) Viewed 4690 times

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It is further documented that the following photo of it appeared on page 18 of the Jan Feb 1967 Vintage Ford.
Accompanying this article are illustrations taken recently of Model T Ford No.220, delivered in December of 1908. This automobile is owned
by member Ben Snider, of Riverside, Calif.

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By Hap Tucker July 02, 2015
Note that in addition to the different fenders, the photo you posted has a much later radiator with the taller filler neck. It also has the accessory shocks on each side of the front axle. It also appears to have the later tapered axle rather than the straight axle but if you zoom in on your original photo you can hopefully confirm that one way or the other.
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I believe these photo's and link discussion noted experts is sufficient documentation that the steering column, upper body, fenders, splash aprons, windshield and its components, radiator, radiator shell, headlights, side lights, front perches can NOT original to the car. They may have been actually made in the respective month and year to complement the latest restoration back to a Touring Model T, but given the transformations prior to 1968 it is definitely not the "actual #220 constructed by the Ford Factory".

[Herb Iffrig]

Sometime in the last couple of years I found an article from a magazine that had a photo of Ed Hausgen in his early Model T at a car show somewhere around St. Louis. That is the earliest photo of no 220 that I know of. The magazine was from the middle fifties. I still have it somewhere around here. I knew Ed Hausgen in his later years, and he told me the story about the cat when he had it. I got that magazine at a flea market in Ed's hometown. Iy might have even been his and sold after he passed away.

[KimDobbins]

The above 1967 photo is of 220. In that picture, it has its original front seat, drive train, fenders,hood and radiator. As Herb stated, Edward Haugen was the owner at the time of that picture. He sold the car to Ben Snyder, Riverside, CA. Some or most of the car was restored by Al Vivian. I believe it was fully restored when Harrahs bought it. I bought it at auction from Harrahs. It was in good running condition and a beautiful car. The only thing I changed was adding the correct carb. I eventually sold it to Fred Lau, Portland OR. I think it sold in an eBay auction after Fred's passing. It's now on display in Detroit at the Piquette Ford plant. I think it's largely correct and came down through time with most of its original parts.

[pete eastwood]

I saw # 220 at Ben Snyder's place when he first acquired it .
The rear seat & seat riser were missing, other than that it was very complete & original.
These pictures show how it appeared when Ben bought it .

[TRDxB2]

Some additional information on the above photo's from this link http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1439509779

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So based on the engine number is it a 1909 Model built in 1908?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

The 1966 photo is not 220. How could it have changed so drastically in one year and yet still retain the aging and patina of an "as found", "barn find"?

[TRDxB2]

The 1966 photo is not 220. How could it have changed so drastically in one year and yet still retain the aging and patina of an "as found", "barn find"?

I am only trying to piece together discussions made in chronological order.
The discussion tied to the 1966 photo.
By Glen Chaffin July 01, 2015
I finally found the photo of Ben Snyder's Ford #220 as it was before restoration. The car was purchased in 1966. It was a modified mess and had been converted from a touring into a roadster with gas tank and tool box at the rear. The original rear seat was missing but Ben had another original rear seat so no problem. The car was restored by Al Vivian a former short term employee of Bill Harrah and turned out beautiful.
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The discussion states that Al Vivian restored the car, 1966 photo, back to what? The one in the 1967 photo which closely resembles the photo's of Ed Hausgen. Regardless, even if you dismiss the 1966 photo, Ed Hausgen isn't driving a Touring and many of the parts on that T are not in the so called as found photo's of it - I would have expected the headlights to be on it wouldn't you. So what style of car is it in those photo's 0 a Speedster. Then there is mentioned, in other discussions that the car, was restored again - but to its present appearance? - And as I started to answer the original question - #220, as it appears Today, was not constructed at the Ford Factory in December 1908.

[pete eastwood]

the car in the "1966" photo with the fellow holding the hood open is not #220
I don't know what car it is, but I can tell you that it is not # 220 !
I saw #220 as it was, as a survivor. It always appeared as it does in the other pictures.
It was never in the condition of the car pictured in the "1966" photo .

[pete eastwood]

When I was at Ben Snyders with my dad, examining #220 when he first acquired it , he pointed out an original 1909 touring car rear body section he had. That is what he used to replace #220's missing rear seat section.
I know others claim that #220 was a " mess", that is just not true .
Ben asked my dad to come & verify #220 authenticity before he began working on it.
He valued my dad's input as my dad had owned & restored #714 which was a very original & complete car
when my dad bought it in 1953 .

[BobP]

This is why there is nothing like a good original unrestored car even if it is far from perfect. Leave it alone if you can. Get in running good and be happy,

[CraneJon]

The Car that starts off this chain is shown in the Lobby of the Piquette Plant. It is a beautiful two lever car in the perfect setting. All Model T owners should plan a trip to the Home of the Model T, Piquette Plant in Detroit. You will be glad you did.

[Pat Branigan Wisc]

I was at Fred's house a few days before the ebay auction and Fred's brother let me see the car. It looks better in person than what the pictures say. I had prepared myself to bid on Ebay and proceeded with only a few seconds remaining and my bid did not go in for some reason. After seeing where it ended up I am very glad I did not end up with it as it's now in an appropriate spot where people can see it. The current owner should be commended for putting it on display there.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

After seeing where it [#220] ended up I am very glad I did not end up with it as it's now in an appropriate spot where people can see it. The current owner should be commended for putting it on display there.

I'll see that he is!