Parts that "FIT" vs the "Correct" part

[bdtutton]

I disassembled most of my early 1914 touring car over the winter to resolve some issues. As I re-assemble the car I am trying to replace parts that "FIT" with parts that are "Correct". Most of the major parts on the car are either original or have been replaced with the correct part. The parts that I am trying to figure out are things like nuts, bolts, screws, brackets...etc... I have a Model T parts identification guide and a restoration handbook, but I still have some questions. When I look at one vendor the part will be brass and when I look at the same part from another vendor it is steel. They both look like the correct part. I know Ford was transitioning from brass to steel during that time, but I am not sure with some of the parts. If I pick the brass part because it looks nice would I have points deducted if I ever had the car judged? Do I need to buy a judging guide to figure this out? Should I care?
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As always...Thank you for your help everyone!!

[KWTownsend]

When in doubt, go black. For instance, the carburetor adjustment escutcheon plate is NOT brass in 1914.

[dflick]

Hey Bryan,

I maybe able to help on a few things. I have what I believe is a mostly all original early 1914 Touring. Paint is pretty much gone from most of the body but most brackets and hardware I could look to see if they have paint or traces of paint.

dougaflick@gmail.com

[John kuehn]

When restoring a Model T you need to remember that there were transition periods when parts were updated and replaced as they were on the assembly line. It probably happened more frequently than most of us realize. Some will make it an obsession to ‘get it right’.

Parts changes were made on a directive from the company but may not have actually happened until the previous parts were used up. That’s one of the challenges you run into if your trying to get things as correct as can be. And that’s only one of the challenges!

[Rich Eagle]

Doug Flick, that is the most delightful '14. I would love to see other photos.
Rich

[Scott_Conger]

DITTO what Rich said!

[TWrenn]

When restoring a Model T you need to remember that there were transition periods when parts were updated and replaced as they were on the assembly line. It probably happened more frequently than most of us realize. Some will make it an obsession to ‘get it right’.

Parts changes were made on a directive from the company but may not have actually happened until the previous parts were used up. That’s one of the challenges you run into if your trying to get things as correct as can be. And that’s only one of the challenges!

Yep, I've got what I call a '25/'26 "carryover" Fordor the same way! Love it.

[dflick]

There was a previous post someone started back in October of 2020 that has a few pictures of the car right before I bought it.

Search "all original 1913 touring for sale"

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16519&p=125238&hili ... nd#p125238

[Steve Jelf]

If you want to be absolutely correct and original, you need to use original bolts.

Not having many original bolts, I have ground and buffed the markings off modern bolts and drilled them for cotters. Looking at an original and a modern together, the difference is obvious. But would a judge at a car show notice or care about modern bolts on a 1914? I doubt it.

[Angmar]

Great car for sure! May contact you with questions.

I noticed the front fenders don't have the bills. I recently learned about those details.

[TXGOAT2]

Sometimes, applying a dab of brake fluid to an old part will reveal traces of paint.

[speedytinc]

I disassembled most of my early 1914 touring car over the winter to resolve some issues. As I re-assemble the car I am trying to replace parts that "FIT" with parts that are "Correct". Most of the major parts on the car are either original or have been replaced with the correct part. The parts that I am trying to figure out are things like nuts, bolts, screws, brackets...etc... I have a Model T parts identification guide and a restoration handbook, but I still have some questions. When I look at one vendor the part will be brass and when I look at the same part from another vendor it is steel. They both look like the correct part. I know Ford was transitioning from brass to steel during that time, but I am not sure with some of the parts. If I pick the brass part because it looks nice would I have points deducted if I ever had the car judged? Do I need to buy a judging guide to figure this out? Should I care?
.
As always...Thank you for your help everyone!!

Vendors are out there to make money, not be correct. One of those "trust but verify. " situations
You didnt mention the McCally book. It has a lot of info on when changes were made. Lots of details & pictures. With transitions & parts inventory, one can not be sure.
No experience with a judging guide. Its only going to be as good as the research/author. What do the real experts think? Tap into the brain trust here, guy's like Original Smith.

"Should I care?" IMO, Hell yes! Thats a real T & deserving of the proper respect. I dont care a whit about judging, I care about correctness & the preservation of history. Its your property to do as you will.

[Mark Gregush]

Not me, don't really care as long as the part fits and works, well ok I do draw the line at using Phillips head unless it is the only thing handy.

[Quickm007]

As I know , it may have just one Original Smith! We like the way is he.

[Scott_Conger]

there really isn't that much brass on a '14. And with that said, and not knowing exactly WHICH parts you have found both brass and steel at suppliers, I would be inclined to state that most if not all brass parts sold for which there exists a steel copy, the brass ones are not correct. A glaring example on early Ts where there were "brass" screws and other structural hardware, the "brass" parts were really brass-plated steel parts. Restoring such a car with solid brass screws and associated hardware is both wrong and can lead to failures due to the fact that brass simply is not steel and cannot take the abuse in service that steel can. The other place I can think of is non-adjustable tie-rod caps, and I would definitely not go for brass even though they are offered as an alternative to original steel...in this case, you would be trying to solve a non-existent problem while simultaneously introducing a weaker part than was designed for that location.

[bdtutton]

One of the parts I often see is the windshield mounting brackets and screws. They are available in Brass and in Steel and both listed as correct for an early 1914. I will admit that I like Brass and I have a solid brass horn from about 1912 on the car. Based on the responses I guess I am now curious what the McCally book is?? I like books with lots of data and pictures. Is that a good book to own? Are there any others?
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Thank you....

[speedytinc]

One of the parts I often see is the windshield mounting brackets and screws. They are available in Brass and in Steel and both listed as correct for an early 1914. I will admit that I like Brass and I have a solid brass horn from about 1912 on the car. Based on the responses I guess I am now curious what the McCally book is?? I like books with lots of data and pictures. Is that a good book to own? Are there any others?
.
Thank you....

I know of no better details book. Its a MUST have. I have used & use it frequently. I also have a '14, well actually one of those early '15' (confused, odd ball) T's. W/S frame, hinges & brackets are black. W/S folds inward. There are rare little lower bracket clamp plates that go under the nut. Chaffins reproduces them.

[dflick]

Windshield mounting brackets and hardware appear to be painted black steel on mine. You can see black paint and a magnet sticks.

[speedytinc]

Does your W/S support arms have a square clamping plate where it attaches to the body? Picture?

What a beautiful patina T!! It dont get any better. Back in the 60's this gem would get an automatic amateur restoration, destroying all this original character. Fortunately we live in a more enlightened age. Barn finds are respected.

[dflick]

Top picture is passenger side, bottom is driver side.

[speedytinc]

Beautiful. This T is worthy of a complete foto spread documenting it's originality. Could it be another Rip Van Winkle?

[J Sundstrom]

Saw this on Facebook Marketplace. 1914 Touring for sale in Indiana. Has all the bows and windshield components, brackets etc. It would be a project to complete but from pictures it looks mostly there. Is it worth $8,500? I have no idea just passing this along and have nothing to do with whomever is selling this car.

[bdtutton]

Doug Flick....you should take pictures and document that car from every angle and post it out there somewhere. If anything was done with that car it was done a long time ago when it would have been considered normal maintenance or just fixing your car so you could get to work the next day.

[Steve Jelf]

Is it worth $8,500?

It's impossible to tell from one crappy little phone picture, but probably so.


Bryan, the book they're talking about is Bruce McCalley's Model T Encyclopedia. There's a very abbreviated version of it on this website, but the best fifty bucks you can spend on a Model T is the full version on flash drive with lots of extras.

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html

[J Sundstrom]

Steve, you are absolutely right regarding that FB 1914.
From the limited pictures I do see it has a riveted rear end, a non starter engine and looks like right carbide lights and coil box but am no expert. Could be a non authentic “Bitsa” car as you call them. Very difficult to tell without viewing in person. Clearly needs paint, upholstery,top,tires, mechanicals etc. beyond that ??
For someone looking for a brass era T restoration project and live in general area, might be worth a look see.

[TWrenn]

Saw this on Facebook Marketplace. 1914 Touring for sale in Indiana. Has all the bows and windshield components, brackets etc. It would be a project to complete but from pictures it looks mostly there. Is it worth $8,500? I have no idea just passing this along and have nothing to do with whomever is selling this car.

According to today's classifieds, this car is already sold.

[J Sundstrom]

Thanks for pointing that out. Must have sold since yesterday.

[Norman Kling]

Unlikely that anyone posting on the forum today saw a car when it was new. There have been "barn finds" which are presumed to be all original.
If the car has Phillips head screws, it is for sure not original. And some "step bolts" have been replaced by carriage bolts. You can tell by the shape of the rounded head. Anyway, if it fits and looks "original" That's about all you will get now. Also, some original used parts are so rusted or weakened, that new parts will actually be safer to use.
Norm

[KeithG]

Hi Bryan, Your T and your post are very interesting. I think it would help if you posted your engine number and the date of manufacture. Look for body identification under the front seat where the driver sits. Also look at the top center of the heal panel under the front seat. A "B" there us for Beaudette, etc. Other makers and letters are given in the MTFCI Judging Guidelines, and I recommend that you get a copy of it.
You mention the possibility of having the car judged. I have a '14 Touring and sometimes judge the '13's to '16's. When we judge, we don't have all day to do it, and depending on how many cars are in that class, the time may be limited. Judges tend to look for easily seen things, but we do get under the car and check that out too. You can get a copy of the judging scoresheet and judge your car yourself. As given above in this thread, get Bruce's book, and the Encyclopedia, and the Judging Guidelines, and read them closely. You will learn a lot. Also compare details with the unrestored '14 shown above in this thread & ask lots of questions.
BTW, I, too, would like to see lots more pictures of the unrestored '14 shown above. It could make a very good article for one of the T magazines.
Keith

[KeithG]

A couple of thoughts in addition to my post just above.
'14's were made for 14 or 15 months due to the late introduction of the '15's. It was also a transition model year in that Dodge, which supplied lots of T parts to Ford, decided to introduce their own car. This irritated Henry Ford to no end (ya think?), so ford stopped buying parts from Dodge and began making many more parts themselves. Thus, you find less parts marked "DB" and more with Ford Script as the year goes on. Add to this what Scott said above that more and more parts were made of steel and less of brass as the year went on. Parts that were transitioned during the year might not be a big deal to the Judges unless the car is to be judged in the Stynowski class where the highest level of authenticity must be adhered to.
Keith