Upper half of windshield on Touring "out of control" - meanwhile solution found.

[rainer]

Hello and Happy Easter time to everybody from Austria.

I own a 1916 Touring with Two Man Top. This top and the windshield somehow to not like each other and I want to ask what I can do.

With open car, I have the windshield in uppermost position (vertical). In this position the left and right mechanism has a "snap position". There are absolutely no problems when driving, the windshield stays there.

When I close the top. situation becomes more complicated:

• I have a clip-on wiper mounted to the windshield frame. This clip has a height of little more than 1/2".
• With closed top I cannot get the upper windshield into vertical position any more. The windshield collides with top's front bow. So the windshield is in an intermediate position between two lock points.
• So the windshield permanently moves back to next snap position, this gives a gap of 3" between windshield and soft flap. So much wind gets in there that it blows you the hat from your head. For sure not correct.

Here some pictures. I have brightened them up to improve visibility:

Uppermost position of windshield

View from inside to windshield

Rear side of Car Top

Outside View

I could make additional holes into front leather straps to allow the top to get a little bit higher. This straps currently have only one hole. But then the windshield frame will be a little bit in front of Top Bow, for sure not correct.

Alternatively I could lengthen the rear straps 1/2" to allow the top to move more to the front. This appears more reasonable to me. Then the windshield can be fully vertical, the soft flap touches the wind shield in most of its length and is only lifted by the wiper arm. So rain will not be blows through the currently existing gap.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Rainer

[rainer]

Meanwhile I had a long analysis. I checked everything multiple times and I always got the same result:

The former owner (or who restored the top) must have made it too short on rear side. It is perfectly under tension, but it does not allow the steel bows to move sufficiently to the front. This results in what you see on the previous post, the front end of the top does not reach enough over the windshield.
Sadly this is something that cannot be corrected without installing a new top.

So I had to find a pragmatic solution and I found one:
Situation is: As I cannot do anything with the top, the problem is now the windshield. It cannot go into upright position and the next stable snap-position is too far backwards, therefore I get a gap of 3-4 inches between the soft flap and the windshield. So the top and the windshield act like a funnel and so much air gets in that it blows a hat from your head. I think driving in rain will make no difference to driving without top, so much rain will get in there, too.

So I made a wooden brace (approx. 1x1 inch in square). This brace has a notch at the windshield side (for the windshield frame) and a sheet steel angle on rear side (reaching over the next top bow). All I have to do is hook it in on the first top bow, then push the windshield into right position, and hook it in there with its notch.

Unpainted brace in position (for test fit)

Fresh painted brace

Meanwhile the brace is painted black, so it will not catch your eye any more. (No pictures after install yet, paint has to dry first.)

This way the windshield is in correct position (relative to front end of the top. The soft flap can do its job, too. It is only lifted by the wiper arm a little bit from the glass, but even this will be lots better than before.

I think this is the best solution possible.

[MichaelPawelek]

My ‘19 has a double row flap sewn across the front to keep air from entering above the windshield. I do not know if this is standard or a fix by someone in the past. It does fold flat against the windshield at road speeds.

[rainer]

Thank you for the pictures.

As I can see, your windshield is in upright position and the front end of your top (the inner of the bow) is right before the windshield frame.

This confirms that my top is sitting to wide backwards. As you can see in this topic, I had to go a different way because the top does not allow the normal way.

Well, this double flap looks interesting. Never saw this on any pictures in the past. But why not, if it works?

[TXGOAT2]

Could a later model, slanted windshield assembly (1924?) be installed to accomodate the shorter top?

[Erik Johnson]

Your top has very bad geometry and the real solution might be to start over from scratch and correctly install new top material or at least install a new rear curtain that is the correct height. Your rear bow is also missing the shim. Your third bow should be vertical, etc.

If you look at the Murray Fahnestock drawing which, according to RV Anderson, has identical measurements to the factory drawing, the first bow should hang over the front of the windshield and the bottom of the bow should line up with the brass channel. The drawing may be viewed here:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/592578.html

Also, 1916 tourings did not have a storm flap on the first bow. If you do have the storm flap, you should pull it over the front of the windshield.

Look at this thread. The 1917 "Rip Van Winkle" has its original top and shows the proper position of the first bow. Note that the only difference between a 1916 and 1917 top is the windows in the rear curtain.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1497974443

The other photo in the above thread is of my father's 1917 touring. He installed the top in 1951 and added a storm flap as shown in the photo. We are in the process of installing a new top on the car with the correct material. However, I recently purchased a new computer and I haven't figured out how to download photos to it, otherwise I would post some of the new top installation process.

[Mark Gregush]

Could you relax the straps in the back and at least allow the front to pull forward? The rear piece looks way to tight and newer compared to rest of top.

[rainer]

Your top has very bad geometry and the real solution might be to start over from scratch and correctly install new top material or at least install a new rear curtain that is the correct height. Your rear bow is also missing the shim. Your third bow should be vertical, etc.
...

Well, I know that renewing the back curtain will solve the position of the entire top. I spent literally two hours to be absolutely sure that 1" of back curtain will move the entire top into correct position.
About the missing shim ... I know where it is -- it is inside a little box on my garage window sill. The screw did not hold, I will need a thicker one to sit well in the steel bow (which appears to have a worn out hole). I think about a Parker Screw which I electroplate first in gold (at least the head), plus drilling up the shim a little bit to fit the thicker screw. I am afraid nothing else will really work.

Starting over from scratch is currently no option to me. This is too much money and the material is almost new. Instead I think about leaving it as-is and adding side curtains in a way that they are not lost when the top needs replacement in many years.
You are absolutely right, the metal frames 2+3 should stand vertical. Now they face backwards approx 2". This is optically not too bad.
The problem with storm flap I could relax by giving the upper half of the windshield a little slant. The wooden brace I made does a good job here. Now the windshield is slanted backwards approx. 1-1/2", this is a position where the storm flap is now in touch with the windshield glass and slightly bent downwards. This appears to be good enough, additional head wind will press it to the glass even more.

So my biggest sorrow remaining is how side curtains are mounted at all.

[rainer]

Hello, Mark.

Could you relax the straps in the back and at least allow the front to pull forward? The rear piece looks way to tight and newer compared to rest of top.

Yes, the Back Top is tensioned like a drum. There are two leather belts inside, usually used to hold the forth steel bow in place. They are not under high tension, so the entire tension is already taken by the top and back material. Looks beautiful because of flat surface without any wrinkles, but as I figured out, is for sure not correct. But this is not changeable, there is no spare material hidden inside.
So loosening the rear belts more will change nothing or even cause damages to the back material.

Sadly this implies that I cannot move the top forward.

[rainer]

Hello, TXGOAT2.

Could a later model, slanted windshield assembly (1924?) be installed to accomodate the shorter top?

As Eric Johnson already confirmed, the entire top is positioned too far backwards. This is caused by the too short back curtain (the restorer has done). This I already figured out, too.
I think it is the cheapest solution without noticeable optical drawbacks to use my wooden brace. It did cost nothing, only 1/2 hour of work and ends up in a partially slanted windshield. So approx. the same as you suggested ("give the windshield a slant"), but not permanent.

But thank you for your idea.

[Wayne Sheldon]

If it were my car? And I am always on a tight budget, so saving money is always a needed consideration. I would consider adding a few inches (several centimeters) to the rear curtain. I have never done this. However I have considered it several times on cars for sale that I have looked at. I never bought the cars, so never actually had to do it.
Six centimeters (three inches) of material could be added at either the top or the bottom of the rear curtain, whichever is easiest to untack and remove from the bow or tack strip. Care would need to be taken to not tear or damage the curtain any more than absolutely necessary. And you would most likely need to cut about a centimeter (half inch) off of the edge to get to material solid enough to be sewn. Use long stitches so as to not perforate and weaken the material too much.
Once material was added, the top could be carefully repositioned much closer to where it is supposed to be, and the curtain pulled tight and tacked into place. Any excess added material would then be cut off and trimmed.
IF you can get material closely matching the top material (a big IF)? It shouldn't look too bad. Adding to the bottom of the curtain I suspect might be easier. However, at eye level it may be more obvious.
Model T Fords did not, however, a lot of era cars did have a trim flap at the top of the rear curtain. Something similar could be added to hide the additional material if it was added at the top of the curtain. It might look better, but would likely be more work.
There may be/should be straps under the top material nailed in between the rear top-bow and the seat back? It might be necessary to lengthen those as well in order to get the top to fit correctly?
All of that may not work at all if the top is old enough and the material has become brittle.

Replacing the entire rear curtain and the straps might be a better solution! If you cannot exactly match the rest of the top's material? It shouldn't be very noticeable. There aren't many places where the average person can see the top of the top and the rear curtain both at once.

So a lot of things to consider. However, it might be a quick way to make the top fit and look right at the same time as solving your windshield problem.

[NoelChico]

You could contact Mike at Classtique Auto Upholstery. He made a single panel for me in the past for my roadster. Much cheaper and easier than a whole new top.

[Norman Kling]

The flap at the front should be attached at the rear of the front bow or at least wrapped around so that the rear of the two flaps fits above the windshield and the front one is flat to the front of the windshield.
One less expensive way to fix your problem if you have access to a good sewing machine, would be to remove the rear curtain and stitch a strip on either the top of the bottom of it. it would be less noticeable at the top, however harder to fit to the material and also the top bow. Then lengthen the leather straps by drilling a new hole for the buckle. You will need a new fabric strap to replace the two which are too short. The top material tacks over the rear curtain so the rain will not bet under it in back. Adjust to where the center bow is vertical. You can test this by parking on a level surface and use a carpenters level in the vertical position.
That stick is a temporary fix at best, because you will eventually wear a hole in the top right over where the "notch" is resting on top of the bows.
In the future, when you decide to install a new top, adjust all the straps and pads first to hold the bows in the proper position. Then trim the ends of the straps and pads. Then attach the front windbreaker to the front bow and align it with the windshield. Then place the rear curtain. Center the rear curtain with the bow and body. Next the top. lay it in place and start in the very center at both front and back to get the top centered on the bows. Start tacking in the front Then the back. Pull the material tight as you can working out wrinkles is the curves Finally trim the front at the edges and follow the instructions in the top kit to fit to the corners of the front bow. Trim edges and install the tack strips at front, back and top of back bow.
Norm
Norm