1909 On Hemmings

[ThreePedalTapDancer]

For those that have a chunk of change jingling in their pockets…

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/ca ... 97178.html

[John kuehn]

Oh come on folks! For that kind of money couldn’t you make it stop dripping??! The pan under on the floor keeps the floor clean and It’s not much but—————-! My three T’s aren’t museum pieces but they have leaks about like the picture. And the nice 09 isn’t your typical T.
This very nice 1909 is a much better T than a totally original that just rolled off the assembly line in 09. It a good illustration of what a complete restoration looks like.

[MichaelPawelek]

Holy Toledo… White front floor mat? I guess one drives in socks to keep it clean!

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

That actually does not seem like a bad price.

[Rich P. Bingham]

Holy Toledo… White front floor mat? I guess one drives in socks to keep it clean!

?!? My '13 has a white floor mat. They clean up well, and neither I nor the dogs are in socks when we change the irrigation water. (Lots of mud)

[Scott_Conger]

Jerry, I agree

these days you could not collect the parts alone, for the purchase price asked.

[RajoRacer]

If that is the only drip from the front timing cover felt, Holy Moly - someone did a good job on assembly. That's seems to be a fair price - I sold a 4 digit numbered '09 for my good friend's widow a few years ago - same price !

[CudaMan]

Beautiful car! According to Bruce's book, engine 18872 would be a March, 1910 engine assembly date (assuming I read the serial number in the photo correctly).

[Scott_Conger]

believe photo shows it is 13272, and that agrees with the VIN as advertised.

It's the real deal, without all of the "Calendar Year, Production Year" drama.

Cheap.

[Tbird]

I do believe this one that is for sale is the same one from when it use to be at Macs Antique Auto Parts

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/4 ... 1401404123

[TWrenn]

Shouldn't the running gear and chassis also be red?
And yes, white mats! Got em on my '11 & '13 and did have them on both my former '12s. They look nice and clean up easier than ya think.

[Dan Hatch]

Looks like pictures from Macs.

[John kuehn]

It sure does even right down to the oil drip pan and the Jack stands. To build one like it these days would be close to 60-70 thousand++. I guess Macs needs the money if they loaned it to the museum. HHMMMN. But we don’t know that.

[CudaMan]

Scott is correct on the engine number, I zoomed in on the picture and looked more carefully. 13272 would be early December 1909.

[TFan]

According to the poster in the Mac's pics link the engine number of that car is #13146. Jim

[TXGOAT2]

It would cost me $57,000.00 to get that car here and registered in Texas, excluding any insurance.

[TRDxB2]

It is what it is or isn't 1909* Numbers shown are based on dates of sale, not of manufacture
1909: October 1908 to July 31, 1909. (Ford called the cars built after July 31 “1910 models.”)
1910: August 1, 1909 to November 1910, approximately. [August 1, 1909 through October 1910, approximately.]
Is the number font correct or used in that period?

[Erik Barrett]

Don’t snivel about the price of this car if you can’t afford it. The asking price is reasonable if it is in fact what is advertised. Don’t say you would buy it if it were closer. There are lots of options for moving special cars. If it was 20 miles away you would find another excuse not to buy it because you are cheap. How many of these come up for sale? We have one available here if you want the real thing, not a bunch of 1920’s parts cut down to look like 1909 parts.

[TXGOAT2]

If you are addressing me concerning my comment, you assume a lot about me and you know nothing.
PS: FYI: I didn't say anything about the price asked for the car.

[Been Here Before]

"" How many of these come up for sale? We have one available here if you want the real thing, not a bunch of 1920’s parts cut down to look like 1909 parts.""

Not to start an argument, those who have been around an Early Ford know that it does not take much to convert a late Ford to an early Ford and vis-vis.

With the correct parts and a set of stencils it would not be hard to construct an early 1908-1910 Ford. Without a proper register of Fords, and knowing the survival rate of early cars, any early production number is eligible for a "new" Ford.

There has been discussion on the forum before on the survival number of Model T's, best guess is the 15 million produced, there are possibly 17 Million Model T out there.

[TXGOAT2]

Seller says,

"1909 Ford Model T, Documented 3 owner car. Complete restoration records."

So, there ya go....

As for "original", is any restored car original?

[TXGOAT2]

"White front floor mat? I guess one drives in socks to keep it clean!"

Socks must be approved, lint-free, dye-free, calf-length crew socks made of 100% pure, certified organic, genuine Giza cotton. All processing is to be performed in a certified peanut-free facility.

[Rich Eagle]

Thanks for posting this Ed. I enjoy seeing these '09s as much as anyone. I can't afford a real one but did the unthinkable by building one that looked as much as possible using what parts I could afford. Each one I see brings back memories of studying the details while building it. Seeing what is correct I can imagine making it closer to authentic. I wish I had some of these pictures earlier. Noticing what came close to looking right gives me some satisfaction. I really have the best of both worlds. 99% of the people who see it or ride in it wouldn't know the difference if I didn't tell them. The ones that do know have been either polite or quiet. I have a car I can drive anywhere without the fear of wearing out rare parts. After a couple thousand miles of driving it seems the right choice to me.
I certainly admire those who can own or build an original. More power to you.
There are lots of ways to enjoy a Model T.
Knowing more about the 1909 cars has been fascinating.
Rich

[TXGOAT2]

" I have a car I can drive anywhere without the fear of wearing out rare parts."

This would be a great advantage over owning a true museum piece for me. You are the owner and driver of your car, not just a custodian of a rare, fragile, high-maintenence article.

[Tbird]

I contacted the seller, he did confirm that this is the car that at one time belonged to Macs Antique auto parts. He has all the receipts back to McMillan buying the car from the original owner and the restoration. If you’re interested in the car he is willing to talk on the phone about anything about the car.

[ModelT46]

A nice 1910 Model T masking as a 1909. This Model T started out life as a 1910 model. The chassis feature sare 1910. It has been "restored" as a 1909 with 1909 running boards and 1909 lights. 1909 E&J lights have been reproduced. 1910 John Brown model 15 headlights, model 60 side lights and model 75 tail light ) There have been other "1909" Model Ts offerd over the years that were 1910s, some also dressed out as 1909s. I have offen said that the car "speaks for itself" Call it what you want, but what it is actually is. is what it is. The two obvious wrongs are the engine and the differential, both are 1910 items. To do my May 1910 Touring up as nice as this "1909" is would cost almost what they want for the "1909".

[ModelT46]

I meant to note that the J Brown 1910 lights HAVE NOT been reproduced and are difficult to locate, especially the marked tail light. The tail light I have is not marked. One could replace the running boards with 1910 ones and then paint this T brewster green.

[Wayne Sheldon]

The hobby has always followed fads and (quite frankly) stupid trends. Painting a car the original or sometimes other correct color has always been the right thing to do.
However, in the 1950s and 1960s we didn't know as much about model Ts as we do today. Still, there was sufficient evidence that only very early model Ts were originally painted red. Yet, somehow, way too many people wanted to paint their model T red so that it would appear earlier than it was. A couple famous books about model Ts published in the 1950s featuring beautiful red 1909 Fords certainly inspired a lot of restorers to paint their model Ts red whether it was correct or not!
We do know a lot more today about what was done when when the cars were new. So, do we "forgive" a car restored more than fifty years ago for technically being wrong? In this case, probably. The car was somewhat documented (I guess, I haven't seen the documentation myself?). And I remember people believing that most 1909s and even early 1910s had been red originally. They were wrong, but they believed it.
Most of the first what, two (maybe three?) thousand model T touring cars were in fact red, practically all red with black pinstriping and upholstery. We also know that Ford began painting them green in June of 1909. Some touring cars were listed in the build sheets and sales ledgers as being red through maybe August of 1909. (At least that is what I have been told by people that have looked through those records!) However, even by the end of August of 1909, MOST Ford touring cars were being painted dark green by the factory.
A lot of people also believed that some early model Ts had a black chassis. I remember being told that by several "experts". Perhaps, maybe, a few early model T touring cars were repainted at some later time? A car originally dark green was painted red, leaving the chassis dirty dark green? Pure speculation on my part. But maybe that was why people in the 1950s thought later 1909s and 1910s were originally red with black chassis?


The car is what it is. It was beautifully restored to a very high standard a long time ago. It was displayed where thousands of people could see it! And it inspired hundreds, maybe even thousands, of people to restore THEIR cars to a higher standard!

I always wish I had a lot more money than my life, family, and fate, have allowed me to have. Especially when I see a good antique automobile for sale that I would really like to have at what I think is a very decent price! Of course, IF I had had the money? I would probably have fifty cars by now including one similar to this one. And I wouldn't be sitting here thinking how much I wish I could buy this one at such a fair price. This happens every couple of years with a 1909 or 1910 model T. Several, in lesser condition, have even been quite a bit less in price. Some excellent examples have been higher in price.

I need to go down and work on my 1915 runabout. Unfortunately, something came up several days ago, and I had to work way too much out in the hot sun (temperatures in high 90s!) for the past four days. Today, I sit inside. Maybe tomorrow I can go down and finish what I was working on for the runabout.

[Tbird]

Great looking car. Who ever winds up with it, IF they show it at a car show you’ll still have a majority of people say/ask is that a Model A? My grandpa had one just like it… His was black though…

[JTT3]

Frank here is what my 1909 engine number looks like.

[Southfork Creek]

Well said Wayne!

[Luxford]

I have an original Ford Canada fact sheet which lists all Fords ( starting with the 1903 Model A) with virtually all specifications which lists 1909 and 1910 Ford T colors as follows.

1909 Touring - Red or Green
Roadster -Red, Green, Gray
Coupe - Green
Town Car- Green

1910 Touring- Red or Green
Roadster- Red or green
Coupe - Green
Town Car -Green

As Canada at this time was just assembling from Ford across the lake the body colors would most probably be exactly what the mother factory did.
Being told by people who supposedly looked through records may not mean they actually told you what they were, only possibly what they wanted you to believe.
The original Ford Canada list I would think is an actual true indication of the facts.

[Tourabout]

I have an original wooden seat back that came off of a 1910 Tourabout. The mostly complete car was pulled out of a junkyard in Atlanta. The only paint that remains on that panel is Black.

[KimDobbins]

On the question of color, the last red 1909 touring recorded in Bruce’s book is number 5300. All the touring cars after 5300 and around 13,000 are all green.

[theautocarist]

The as found photographs of this car indicate that it was Green

[Been Here Before]

Now we see the reason for Henry Ford etal to paint cars black only. It was to eliminate future arguments as to what colour a car was before repainting by a future owner.

indexcolourblack.jpg (14.65 KiB) Viewed 5877 times

[ModelT46]

Nice photo, John, of the serial number on your 1909 engine. Note that the engine block has that "tell-tale" mold line below.

[TRDxB2]

Frank here is what my 1909 engine number looks like.

Thank you for the picture. The stamp used for your numbers is consistent in shape with many others of that period. In fact given 3480 and 24287
I would expect 13272 to look similar. The Mac's numbers just don't look correct

[hull 433]

So this car was originally Brewster green.

[ModelT46]

24287 T was made a day after my 1910 Touring

[Tourabout]

Here is my 1910 block number

1910 Serial Number