Transmission binds when starting cold-Update...Fixed

[Rata Road]

Follow up to an earlier post - One of my T's is very stiff when turning over cold, impossible by hand and starter also struggles. Even parked after 4 hours it has to be jacked up to get it started. PLUS it has to run for over 5 mins jacked up before I can use foot brake or handbrake without engine stalling. In other words its a 10 mins job to start cold. Some people have a similar issue but it clears quickly once engine is started.
This engine/trans was in another of my T's which I hardly used and has been like this since I got it about 7 years ago. I have swapped the running gear into one of my T's I use most days so was keen to sort it out.
I had the Hogs head off to change brake band, after that no difference.
Oil (20/50) was clean already but I changed it, No difference.
Parked over night with handbrake on, No difference.
Drove a few test drives getting it up to temp but still the same problem every day.
Yesterday I drained the clean oil out and replaced it with this oil. Went for a 10 mile run to get the oil splashed about and to ensure the brakes/reverse etc worked correctly (and they do) and this morning the problem has gone away.
Handbrake on, all 4 wheels on floor, 2 cranks to prime it then key on and fired up first crank.
I'm sure some will say you shouldn't use this oil .

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[Adam]

Something is wrong that needs to be fixed. That oil may seem to be a remedy, but is eventually going to cause you some bigger problems than you already have…

[Scott_Conger]

I personally would not consider this fixed; I'd consider that the symptom has been alleviated

your clutch disks are hanging up, which is the root cause of your problem

there are a few people who get away with this oil, and at least one of them is a very finely built MT500 car...a car which perhaps can deal with the super-low viscosity oil...I would not expect an engine built with hanging-up clutch plates to meet that category with any degree of certainty. Sticking with this oil in the heat you will see during operation won't lead to long-term life, unfortunately.

If you're happy, then I'm happy. Just start an engine $ rebuild fund and add to it regularly and sooner or later you'll get an opportunity to fix the root cause to stiff starting (and undoubtedly other things, too).

Adam, you type faster...

[TXGOAT2]

If you run thick oil in a Model T, the multi-disc clutch will behave like a torque converter when it is cold and disengaged. You will also risk inadequate lubrication to some engine parts when the engine is cold. I run synthetic 10W30 here in Texas with good results. The previous owner of my car ran 0W20 premium synthetic in 500 mile endurance races with good results. The engine remains in excellent condition with no knocks or rattles. I've run the car around 9 to 10,000 miles, mostly at 35-45 MPH, with absolutely no deterioration in the engine's condition.

[TXGOAT2]

Viscosity is not necessarily a good indicator of an oil's film strength. Ford warned against using thick oils and against any oil that did not have a low cold test. Ford recommended a quality oil with a low cold test that would correspond to what we know as 20W or 20W20 today. Modern synthetic 0W20 meets that specification nicely, having a VERY low cold test, very high film strength, and proper viscosity at operating temperatures, and other beneficial qualities that were not obtainable in the 1910s and 1920s. I believe that Ford would have recommended a multi-grade oil, had any such thing been available. All that said, a 10W20 or 10W30 full synthetic might give similar results to what you are getting with 0W20 as far as cold performance. Based on my experience, and of that of others who run the heck out of Model Ts with stock engines, either oil is suitable for a T engine in good condition. If the clutch is gummy from disuse, or if it is new or rebuilt, some run time might improve its performance.

[speedytinc]

IF the clutch plates were sticky with old gummy oil, and IF the light oil washed the old stuff away, you should be able to replace the thin stuff with a "normal" weight oil & know your problem is solved or not.

[JohnH]

Is there any way to clean the clutch discs in the car that someone has tried with successful results? Does the kerosene wash referred to in Ford literature do any good? What about squirting a solvent like brake or carb cleaner into the discs?

[speedytinc]

Is there any way to clean the clutch discs in the car that someone has tried with successful results? Does the kerosene wash referred to in Ford literature do any good? What about squirting a solvent like brake or carb cleaner into the discs?

A spray wont get in well enough.. Running another thin fluid will. The thin oil apparently has washed out the gummy stuff.

[Scott_Conger]

disks don't usually hang up from "gumminess", they usually suffer from worn brake drum lugs

hopefully, it is gumminess, but I would not bet the farm on it

[TXGOAT2]

Clutch drag due to gum or thick oil would likely respond well to heat, and to replacing thick oil with thinner oil. This car's clutch issue appears to have responded favorably to both heat and to an oil change to a lighter bodied oil with a high resistance to cold thickening. I don't think a mechanical issue would be likely to respond to an oil change or to engine warm-up the way this car's clutch has. No proof, just opinion.

[TXGOAT2]

According to Ford, normal weight oil for a T would be a high quality 20W. 0W20 synthetic oil gives good service in small displacement engines making well over 1 HP per cubic inch and running at high speeds and temperatures. These engines have high loads acting on much smaller bearing surfaces at much higher speeds than are found in a Model T. While these engines do have oil pressure to many critical internal parts, they do not have oil pressure to all highly loaded parts.

[kmatt2]

My opinion is that the 20-50 W oil was a big part of your problem. I have always used 10-30 W oil in Model T’s. Many years ago I had a very original 1926 Tudor that had sat with only minimal use for many years before I got it. The clutch was so stiff that I had to stand on the hand crank to break loose the clutch. I was able to clean out the gummy clutch with a oil change of 3 quarts 10-30 W oil and 1 quart of automatic transmission fluid run for a short time and a few easy driven miles. I then replaced the oil with 4 quarts of fresh 10-30 W and the car would then start cold with the electric start. After your car frees up some I would use 10-30 W oil for summer time, or year around, depending on how cold your winter climate is if you drive your T in winter where you live.

[Steve Jelf]

I suspect that my famous rod failure may have been at least partly due to my mistaken use of 5W-20 oil, which is NOT the same as the old 20W that Ford recommended. I would much rather jack up a wheel to start than pay for more premature engine surgery, so I'm using the 15W-40 recommended by a well-known rebuilder I asked about oil.

[bobt]

Have you parked overnight with the hand brake OFF? Lever ALL the way forward. bobt

[Rata Road]

Yes Robert it has always been parked with the lever forward but I thought I would try leaving it back after a run to see if it would stay fee, no difference.
I'm happy with the result, the way it stood it was almost unusable and might have needed a pull down to rectify. Maybe over time it will still need the same pulldown and if what some of you are saying it will need even more work to repair potential damage, only time will tell.
I dont think it will and I predict it will still be running fine in years to come. If I remember I'll post an update each year.

Thanks for all your interesting input guys.

[Tim Rogers]

Kevin- I do hope you understand that your oil change did not solve your problem. As Scott mentioned previously, your clutch lugs probably look like this...

[CudaMan]

Per Royce's recommendation, I've been running 5W-30 in my 1924 T since 2013 with no ill effects - just sayin'.

[TXGOAT2]

I question whether changing the oil would have any significant effect on clutch issues related to chewed-up clutch lugs or other mechanical issues in the clutch assembly. If a quality 0W20 synthetic oil or quality 10W30 synthetic oil was not fit for (vigorous) use in a Model T engine in good condition, the engine in my car would be scattered all over Montana and/or Texas. My engine does have a high volume external oil pipe and aluminum pistons. It is otherwise stock except for a performance camshaft. I don't think lack of an outside oiling device would necessitate the use of thick oil. On the contrary. As Ford stated, a light bodied oil with a low cold test facilitated engine lubrication under adverse conditions, particularly in cold weather, while preventing clutch drag, hard starting, and creep in cold weather.

[Rata Road]

Like I said, time will tell. In the meantime I now have a car I can start quickly hot or cold with all 4 feet on the ground...perfect!

[JohnH]

0W20 is hideously expensive; (nearly $70 for 5 litres) but I'm going to give it a go. (Due for an oil change anyway). I just don't believe there's a mechanical issue with my clutch either, since it's a 26 with lug shoes, and it's a low mileage car. It's purely a winter problem. In summer it will start without jacking up the back wheel on the 3rd crank.

[TXGOAT2]

It might be less expensive to use a quality conventional 10W30 oil with 20% Marvel Mystery Oil. If your engine is clean inside and in good condition, I believe you can safely use synthetic oil for a substantially longer mileage than conventional oil, provided much of your driving is not stop-and-go or very short trips, and that you use a good air filter if you operate under dusty conditions.

[TXGOAT2]

Among the several advancements that allowed automakers to substantially stretch recommended oil change intervals going into the 1930s were: Effective air filters, effective crankcase ventilation systems, hot spot intake manifolds, better piston rings, thermostat regulated cooling systems, much improved gasoline quality, and much better motor oil. Oil filters were rare on pre-WWII vehicles, and usually partial flow type, if present, and full-flow oil filters only became common in the 1950s. Detergent oils began to appear in the early 1950s, and multi-grade oils in the late 1950s. A Model T in good condition using quality modern oil need not have the oil changed every few hundred miles unless it is used under very harsh and adverse conditions. Aluminum pistons with modern type rings go a long way toward reducing oil contamination and oil consumption. Modern fuels, if in good condition, are sulfur-free and highly volatile, which helps preserve crankcase oil quality. Modern fuel is less likley than T-era fuel to form soot, carbon, and varnish. If a T (without a water pump) is driven a reasonable distance once started, like 10 miles or more, the engine will get hot enough to drive off moisture and any unburned fuel that gets past the rings. A transmission cover screen and magnet will minimize debris in the oil. Proper management of the spark control, choke, and carburetor mixture will extend crankcase oil service life.

[Rata Road]

JohnH - I got mine from Supercheap auto when it was on special for about $50. I used exactly 3 litres which took it just under the top petcock.
A 5L pack, so I still have 2L for the next change.
But if I knew how successful it was going to be price wouldn't have stopped me even if it was $100.
Like TXG suggests perhaps I could move to a 10w down the track if that is cheaper. I could always go back to 0w if it didn't work as well.
One other thing I noticed which I didn't post was I believe the motor ran better on this oil. I took the car for a long drive to warm up before I drained the nearly new 20-50. Then drove the exact same route with the new Synthetic 0w-20 in an hour later and I am sure it ran nicer and just felt smoother to drive.
Let us know if you try it John, I remember your comment on my original post that you had a similar issue and that's one reason why I updated, hoping you would read it.

[TXGOAT2]

10W30 seems to be the most widely used oil in this area, and the most likley to be available at a discount. I use a lot of 20/50 conventional oil in old engines because it has been cheap and does a good job. I don't think it's the best choice for a Model T. The Model T seems to thrive on synthetic multi-grade oil with a low first number. As for lubricating efficacy, 0W20 synthetic is commonly used in very high performance modern engines with extensive factory warranties. I have an Arctic Cat SXS vehicle with a 950 cc V-twin engine that makes 93 horsepower at very high RPM. The factory recommends a 0W20 synthetic oil. This vehicle has a common sump for the engine and 2 speed gear box and employs a wet clutch driving a CVT belt drive. Vehicle weight is around 1600 lbs unladen. It's also worth noting that automatic transmissions have proven to be very durable over many decades running a very light bodied lubricant. They handle high horsepower at high temperatures and have highly finished parts operating under extreme loads while sharing lubricant with bands and clutch packs.

[TXGOAT2]

The Model T flywheel operates in an oil bath, and it can dissipate a considerable amount of power if the oil level is too high or if the oil is too viscous.

[JohnH]

The Model T flywheel operates in an oil bath, and it can dissipate a considerable amount of power if the oil level is too high or if the oil is too viscous.

I have definitely noticed this - just after I've added a couple of litres, it's always harder to crank, as it is straight after an oil change. I think it might be about time to move away from 20W50 despite being the cheapest of oils.

Kevin, I've been following your thread with a lot of interest, because I think it's the only time on this forum I can recall someone having exactly the same problem. And that you've proven the clutch frees up with 0W20, holds a lot of promise. I'd happily pay the cost of the oil rather than pull apart an otherwise perfectly good power plant just to clean the clutch discs. Repco currently have 0W20 on sale for $48 so will try there first, otherwise will wait until Supercheap have one of their weekend sales.

[Rata Road]

Excellent to hear John. If the Repco one is a 5l its still cheap as its 1 & 2/3 oil changes.
I had fitted a oil sight glass to this car a month ago and that made me realize that I was always over filling my T's slightly by stopping at the top petcock. I have recently read that Henry recommended halfway between the two petcocks.
I only read the sight glass after I have driven the car and let it cool down. The new 20/50 I had in the car since fitting the sight glass was exactly halfway up the glass. When I drained it and then fitted the 0w-20 I only put in 3l.
I could do it because the Mobil pack has a clear measure gauge on the edge of the oil pack. Then when I checked the sight glass I noticed it's probably 80 - 90% between the petcocks. In other words I have more oil (higher level) of 0w-20 than I did with 20-50.
Due to the fact it runs & drives better I'm tempted to run the same oil in my other two T's to see if they do the same.
I'm also keen to check the trans screen after a few miles and see if this oil brings anything more to the magnet/screen.

[TXGOAT2]

Ford USA recommended adding 1 US gallon of oil to a new car. They cautioned to NEVER carry the oil level higher than the top cock and ABSOLUTELY NEVER lower than the bottom cock. They stated that best results would be obtained with a light bodied oil carried halfway between the top and bottom cocks. The oil level can be accurately checked with the car sitting on level ground and having sat idle, engine off, for at least 10 minutes (hot) to half an hour or more. Overnight is better. I would caution that plastic oil jugs with measurements on the side can be rather inaccurate. The jugs sold in this country do not have a well defined or fixed volume. A metal container of known volume would be better for measuring oil. My car seems to retain some oil even after draining it hot, with the front axle elevated 10" off the floor, and letting it drip for half an hour. I use caution when refilling to avoid overfilling. Ford recommended adding oil until it began to run out the top cock, then allowing it to drip on the ground until the excess drained off. That's too expensive these days. For a refill, I'd add oil slowly until it just begins to drip out the open lower cock, then close the lower cock and add another US pint. The car must be sitting on a level surface to check oil level. The oil level in a Model T can have a significant impact on performance and oil consumption, including oil leakage. Sight glasses need to be vented to be accurate, and care should be taken with a sight glass or dipstick to be sure that indications correspond to the actual oil level.

[YellowTRacer]

I definitely should not chime in here as I'm no ways close to being a Knowledgeable mechanic like those commenting here. I just know what works for me and all of my crazy driving, especially in old #4. Good old 30 Wt. non detergent oil. I as told that it was the way to go back in 1959 when I got started with my first "running" Model T. And was later told that detergent oil would deteriorate you band lining, which I found to be incorrect. And I have never strayed from 30 Wt. non detergent oil. Yes, hard to crank on a cold engine but it warms up pretty fast and in a short time is just fine. I rarely have to work on my car other than just trying to keep that yellow chassis clean. I'm not claiming it to be the "answer", it just has worked well for me for 64 years.

Ed aka #4

[TXGOAT2]

30 W is fine in mild weather, especially in an engine with a lot of hours on it. I take advantage of the benefits of detergent oil. Ford recommended what corresponds to high grade 20W today. Multi grade oils have considerable benefits when used in engines with splash oiling systems. Multi grade oils also promote easy starting in Model T Fords. Note that Chevrolet specified 10 W oil for the Chevrolet 6 as late as 1949. They further recommended 10 W with 10% kerosene for extreme cold weather. Thick oil will cause cold starting issues in Model Ts, and thick oil can wreck splash oiled, dip rod engines in cold weather. I have run 0W20 synthetic in a T in temperatures over 100 F at speeds up to 45-50 MPH for miles on end with no issues. I use 10W30 synthetic in the same engine with good results. I doubt if the 10W30 is any better for the engine, but it is the most available in the widest range of brands, although that is changing. 0W oils are crowding the shelves at Wal Mart, and the WalMart brand 20/50 has not been available here for some time. Last time I looked, synthetic blends and conventional multigrade oils were becoming scarce at the local Wal Mart. They sell a lot of oil,and what Wal Mart does probably reflects general trends. It may be that refining capacity is being devoted more and more toward producing the oils used in most vehicles on the road today, which is full synthetic with a very low first number.

[JohnH]

I did the oil change today and put in 3L of 0W20. There's a lot for me to think about now given the change in performance.
After I drained the old 20W50 out, I cranked the engine by hand just to remind myself how much clutch drag there is. After putting in the 0W20, I started using the starter motor with the back wheel jacked up as always. Straight away, the starting was much more lively - sluggish drag gone. In fact, it was an unusually easy start. (The big test is of course if it will start as easily with the back wheels on the ground).
Then I went for a 12km drive. The throttle is more responsive - it's just like everything is so much freer. In fact, it's a bizarre feeling seeing such a change in how it runs and drives. Even if the clutch doesn't free up, just this improvement is enough to justify the cost of the 0W20.

Tomorrow, after it's all cooled down I'll take it out again and see if there's any improvement to the clutch drag.

But after that excitement, I have to come back down to earth and think about a lot of things. The 0W20 is thin, and flows easily compared to 20W50. The bands and high speed clutch did not slip, so the oil is OK in that regard. Neither does the engine blow any smoke, so all OK there too. My one and only concern is the bearings and if it's safe to use 0W20 full time, or just to clean out the gummy clutch, and then put something thicker back in.

I have to say up to this point I've always used 20W50 because I've never had any bearing problems, and I do clock up the km's on my car. Also, I've always run it with the oil to the top petcock just to be sure. Perhaps I need to rethink all this.

[Rata Road]

Brilliant news John. I'm interested to hear you also noticed your car drove better on this oil as I did with mine.
Tomorrow when its cold leave the wheels down, lever back and see if you can crank it, look forward to the result.
I was under my Hack today and I noticed with the engine cold the oil sight glass was almost fill so I opened the top petcock and got a few drips. Moral of that is the 3 litres I put in is maybe too much and perhaps I might get 2 oil changes from a 5 litre pack bringing cost down.

On a separate note you may be tempted to use an additive in the oil if you have concerns about bearing wear I would suggest you dont use "Promar CLM" which I think is made in Qld. CLM is a product from the 70's, they have a new product now. The CLM is so good at its job as far was making things slippery but not when the trans uses the same oil and has bands in it. A few months ago a neighbor gave me an old bottle so I tried it in my Speedster. I put the small amount as directed to a oil change of new 20/50. The motor ran nicer for sure but I lost 80% of my trans brake and it was even hard to get grip to start off in low! Wow very impressive for such a small amount added. I drained that oil out and gave my 1953 MG an oil change with it then refilled the T with new 20/50 and my trans performance returned to normal so I know it was the Promar. If you ever see a bottle of this buy it for me please.

[John E. Guitar]

This is very interesting. I'll try some out in my car at the Australian Nationals in Dubbo next month.

I see Supercheap Auto has Mobil Super 3000 0W-20 5 litres on special at the moment for $51.69.

[Kerry]

0W is thinner than flushing oil, just what an old engine needs, an enema

[TXGOAT2]

Multi-grade synthetic oils do not behave like single viscosity oil, expecially "conventional" single viscosity oil.

A 0W synthetic oil will behave much like a conventional 20W single grade at low temperatures as far as viscosity, and it will behave much like a 20W conventional oil at operating temperatures as far as viscosity. In all other vital respects, synthetic oils out-perform "conventional" oils. Film strength is vital for engine bearings and camshafts, and synthetic oils have excellent film strength as well as other vitasl qualities. Ford recommended a light viscosity, high quality oil with a low cold test, that is, good resistance to thickening when cold. A 0W20 or 10W20 synthetic far exceeds Ford's recommendations. Ford cautioned against using thick oil in the Model T, and against using any low quality oil. Ford also recommended keeping the oil level about halfway between the upper and lower test cocks. Thick oil will cause hard starting and creep in a Model T in cool weather. In cold weather, thick oil can lead to very difficult starting, as well as bearing damage due to delayed or inadequate lubrication of vital engine parts. Thick oil will degrade engine performance and decrease fuel economy. Thick oil will not repair worn or loose bearings.

[Kerry]

The problem is for those who think thinner must be better, a well known machine shop owner, now deceased, would quote, "oil is good so more must be better " well that's not the case, what oil is there must do it's job.
Modern engine design with tighter clearances and pump pressure, work fine for those low starting viscosities, oil description for viscosity is.

Viscosity has a huge impact on pressure losses with in the system, for a given drive pressure, lower viscosity will result in higher and larger flow rates.
Sounds good right, that works great for a system that is replenished to maintain pressure by a pump.

Back to what oil is there must do it's job.
Splash system, like the design of the T rod, It swipes it's oil supply at the parting lines to create it's own internal pump,

Getting_1.jpg (27.31 KiB) Viewed 12166 times

so is relying on viscosity to maintain it's internal oil pressure, oil with a larger flow rate is not what you would be looking for. Higher the viscosity the longer the oil maintain those internal pressures to float the bearing from metal to metal contact. Some racing engines will run a multi grade oil up to 70w to have maximum internal bearing pressures at high revs and temp.
One might be solving one problem of a bad clutch but at the expense of premature wear of the engine.

[Allan]

When I returned Henrietta to the road following her 67 year slumber, I used 5w 20 oil, the idea being to flush out the old stuff. It was drained as son as it was hot, looking really dirty, and i gave her a new fill of the same. She had a new fill about 5 weeks later when I had to replace the old band linings.

On a return drive to her home town, she ran no 1 rod bearing.

I changed this out in the car trough the bottom plate, and while doing this removed much gunk held captive around the bottom plate horse shoes which would never have been flushed. The rod failure may well have been a coincidence, but she now runs on the 10w 30 or 15w 40 that i keep in stock whenever it is on special. She has always proceeded at a leisurely pace, so I have not noticed a difference in performance. Certainly not like the performance difference I got whenever I removed the mudguards from my bike when I was a kid!

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

Model T engines have large bearing surfaces carrying comparitively light loads at low speeds. The bearings are long and rather small in diameter, which gives a lot of surface area, and a low rubbing speed at a given RPM. They do fine with a low viscosity oil, about 20W, as Ford recommended, provided it is a high quality oil that holds its viscosity when at operating temperature and does not thicken excessively at low temperatures, which Ford specified. Film strength is an important quality, and it is not directly related to viscosity. Synthetic multigrade oils give excellent results in Model T engines in good condition, even under harsh operating conditions. As for dirty engines, sludge and debris can lead to bearing failure in any engine, regardless of what oil is used. Old engines that are loaded with sludge and debris may have bearing failure from a variety of causes. A fouled crankase is evidence of neglect or abuse, or an issue such as a leaking head gasket. Best to clean out such an engine, inspect the rod and main bearings, then test run it.

[JohnH]

Thank you Kevin; I'm almost in a state of disbelief. It's a cool morning here, and I just went out to the T to see if yesterday's drive with the 0W20 has had a lasting effect.
Rather surprised when I turned the crank how free it felt - just like it was with hot 20W50. So, I thought let's try it without the starter motor.
I just don't believe this - all four wheels on the ground with handbrake on, and I crank started it while it was cold, after it sat overnight in less than 10 degrees C. That would have been impossible two days ago. Always had to be electric start with the wheel jacked up, and even then could take a while. In fact it was so bad the flywheel might as well not have been there.
I know it's the 0W20 that has cleaned the clutch, because with an empty crankcase before the 0W20 went in, it still had too much drag.
I will probably play safe and just do a bit more cleaning with the 0W20, before replacing it with something like 10W30 or 15W40 - especially as I'm going to be doing about 2000km for the rally next month, and I don't want to risk anything before then.
Perhaps I should point out that the engine is clean, and was rebabbited etc., about 12 years ago, but the transmission has been untouched since the car was built.

[TXGOAT2]

10W30 synthetic would probably do a good job. If not, look for a 5W20 or 5W30. In summer, I'd think 10W30 would be an excellent choice. I've had excellent results in very hot weather (over 100 F) at sustained speeds of 40-45 MPH using either 0W20 or 10W30 synthetic oil. The clutch and (Kevlar) bands perform very well. Oil consumption and leakage are very low, probably as low as any T.

[Rata Road]

Wow John that's what I was hoping to read.
Maybe move up to thicker oil at next change, you can always go back down if the problem returns. I don't think I will change oils yet but I might check my screen/magnet every few weeks and drain it out after a couple of hundred miles and check oil condition.
Supercheap price for Mobil over there sounds good at the moment . Buy 2 packs now and you might get 4 oil changes for $103.
Amazing your trans is still original. There is a 26/27 for sale in NZ that also has the original untouched Trans.
Great result

[JohnH]

There's an interesting article from Royce about engine oil here https://modeltfordfix.com/care-and-feed ... el-t-ford/
0W20 is actually recommended for very cold weather 0-40F (-18 to 4C).
I only drive at 0 degrees C about once a year.
5W30 is recommended for average use 40-110F (4 to 43C). That is exactly the temperature range I drive in.
So, 5W30 it will be, once I've done a bit more cleaning. But it is reassuring to see that 0W20 isn't going to destroy my engine.

It is also interesting to learn the original Ford specification was SAE 20. I'm no expert in oils (pretty clueless actually), but wouldn't this indicate that 0W20 would actually be correct once the engine has warmed up?

[Kerry]

John, best to research facts instead of what Royce has to say, check out what manufactures of oil products have to say. to sum it up it's simple.

Engine oils with light viscosity multigrades are not suitable in Veteran, vintage and historic engines.

[TXGOAT2]

The design of the Model T Ford engine/magneto/transmission/clutch unit is unique to the Model T Ford. It is NOT constructed the way other vehicle powerplants of the time were constructed, and the Model T lubrication system does not operate in the same way as others of that period and later did. Ford recommended a "light cylinder oil" for the ModelT, and warned against using "heavy" oils, poor quality oils, or oils with a high cold test. Informed opinion today holds that "light cylinder oil" corresponds to a 20W straight grade oil of high quality with a low cold test. A 10W20 or 10W30 full synthetic oil meets, and far exceeds that specification. 0W20 full synthetic oil has been used in stock Model T engines in summer endurance racing with excellent results. (Montana 500) The fact is, it works, and works very well, even under extreme operating conditions. I have used it with great success in a Model T run under demanding conditions. (100 F temperatures, sustained road speeds up to 50 MPH) I have had no issues related to oil of any kind whatsoever in 8 to 10 thousand miles driven. I have worn the rear tires slick, and I had issues related to a failed point set. I do not attribute either issue to the crankcase oil.

[TXGOAT2]

I had a 1949 Chevrolet coupe with a babbited, dipper rod engine with cast iron pistons. The owner's manual recommended 10W oil for winter use, and 10W with 10% kerosene for extreme cold weather. I think the summer recommendation was for 20W. The engine had oil pressure to the main bearings, cam bearings, and rocker shaft. The rod bearings dipped oil from troughs, much the same as a Model T. The oil pressure gauge only registered to 15 or 20 lbs, and normal pressure was around 10 PSI.

[TXGOAT2]

Thick oil will cause clutch drag in a T in cold weather regardless of how clean the parts are.

[TXGOAT2]

Note that single viscosity oils are only single viscosity at a single temperature. They change viscosity with temperature changes. Multi-grade oils dramatically reduce viscosity changes that occur with temperature changes. This property of multi-grade motor oils offers a number of advantages which are of particular benefit to the Model T engine, transmission, and clutch.

[Kerry]

Pat, that's like saying I run 12v on all my 8v bulbs and never blown one! the simple fact is you still know that they are not designed to run that way.

[TXGOAT2]

I don't use light bulbs in my crankcase. I do use synthetic, multi-grade oil, and I get excellent on- the-road results doing so. Others do likewise. Grease your engine, if you choose. (It was not designed to run that way.)

[Kerry]

Nor was it designed to run Ow

[TXGOAT2]

OW20 does a good job in a Model T. The T engine, transmission, and clutch unit was designed to use "light cylinder oil", and OW20 and 5W or 10W30 come very close to that, especially the synthetic versions. There are a number of very important characteristics that a good motor oil must have to do a good job, and viscosity stability is but one of them. Synthetic multi-grade oils exceed anything available in the Model T era in all of the important areas of concern. They excel in cold thickening resistance and resistance to thinning out excessively at operating temperatures while maintaining high film strength and high resistance to carbonization, oxidation, foaming, shearing, and more. Ford emphasized that the T was to use a light bodied, high quality motor oil having a low cold test and good resistance to excessive viscosity loss when hot, and gave good reasons why to use such an oil and why NOT to use heavier oil, or any oil with poor viscosity stability, particularly as regarded thickening in cold weather. Use what you want. I'll use what has been demonstrated to perform very well, even under duress, under a wide range of operating conditions, and that has properties consistent with Ford's counsel on what properties to look for in a suitable motor oil for the Model T.

[Kerry]

Yes, one's opinion can be validated by their own experiences in spite of what petroleum chemists say and modern engine designs require. Rather that post endless facts against your belief that a OW starting point of a multi grade oil is a good thing, research what Penrite, Castrol, Mobil or any other oil producer of your choosing have to say.

[TXGOAT2]

You might be able to buy something close to "light bodied cylinder oil". I believe Ajax gas engines going back several decades use something similar. You won't like it. It's thin, clear, and has a low cold test.

[TXGOAT2]

I'll stick with what Ford said, thanks.

[Rata Road]

And it gets better!
Yesterday from cold I turned fuel on and waited 30 secs, gave the Hack 3 1/4 turns with choke out to prime, set the levers & turned the key and it Free Started!
Unbelievable its the same car. From having to jack up a wheel to start the motor then leave the motor running for at least 5 min before neutral could be achieved to allow lowering the jack to not only an easy hand crank when cold car but a free start.

I tip my hat to 3 things now -The Ladies, The Rose of San atone and the 5l Pack of 0w-20 lol.

[Scott_Conger]

The Amazing Karnack's answer is: wait until you can buy new head gaskets again, to make rod replacement easier

... and the Question is: When should I switch from 20W-50 to 0W-20?

[TXGOAT2]

When to change? Right after you make the climb out of Death Valley on your way to Burbank.

[TXGOAT2]

Speculation: Overly-viscous oil might starve the planet gear pinions for lubrication in cold weather.

[JohnH]

There are some who say 6V electrical systems can never work properly, coil ignition is unreliable, cotton band linings are junk, and E10 fuel is bad for your car. Yet, for my 22 years of Model T experience and 48,000km of driving, never once have I had any troubles with these things.
So, I'm more inclined to look at experience and practical results when deciding on something, which is why I'm keeping an open mind on the subject of oil.
By 15 million cars, one could be confident that Ford knew what was best, and when oil is mentioned, 'light' is their preference.

It's been interesting going back over all the forum posts on oil types which people have used in the modern day. Aside from this present thread, 0W20 and 5W30 do get mentioned.
And in none of these posts, has anyone said, "I put (insert grade of light oil here) into my car and ruined all the bearings". There's one or two mentions of a rod bearing failure after an oil change. But guess what, my one and only rod bearing failure occurred after putting in 20W50!
What has been ecouraging is the reports from those who have used light oils for many years without requiring any bearing adjustments.
Conversely, I would be interested in reports about damage from actually using 0W20 or 5W30.

I haven't been able to replicate your free start just yet, Kevin, but it was an easy crank start this morning. Now, I'll go out for a drive.

[Scott_Conger]

Bearing Clearance vs Oil Viscosity by Temp (F).docx

(245.55 KiB) Downloaded 107 times

[TRDxB2]

0W20 oil is intended for some of today's performance engines that have very tight tolerances and need good oil flow at all temperatures
People put STP like products and higher viscosity oil to mitigate oil burning and tail pipe smoke. The additives increase the viscosity values but 10 points (10W30 goes to 20W40). As pointed out originally Ford recommended a light weight oil which would be equivalent to 20W.

An oil is rated for viscosity by heating it to a specified temperature, and then allowing it to flow out of a specifically sized hole. Its viscosity rating is determined by the length of time it takes to flow out of the hole. If it flows quickly, it gets a lower rating. If it flows slowly, it gets a higher rating. But the engine oil has to be thick enough to offer enough protection to keep the parts from coming into contact with each other and to prevent wear.

Most often, for a multi-grade oil, a low viscosity first number is usually chosen based on starting in cold weather but there really isn't any reason not to choose it year round to maximize oil flow at start up. The second value is more likely dependent upon engine ware and temperature.

For a multi-grade oil: A first number of 0, 5, or 10 is likely a good choice to get things initially lubricated. As the engine warms up a viscosity of 20 or 30 should be sufficient. If you focus on how oil viscosity is determined ( by the length of time it takes to flow out of the hole) you may not want to go any higher.

[Steve Jelf]

The oil chart from the MTFCA engine book indicates that 5W-20 is not the same as Ford's recommended 20 weight, and is not recommended for Model T use. Is it wrong?

[Kerry]

I think that the point of very low W is some what miss-under stood. Penrite oil chemists cover it so basically all should understand one of the few problems it presents.
Veteran and vintage engines have requirements that differ from modern technologies and tolerances.
Modern thin oils designed to circulate quickly through an engine and drain from internal surfaces back to the sump. This happens also when engine is idle (switched off)
75% of engine wear is on a cold start, Penrite put it simple, Thin starting point of multi grade oils will give.

"LITTLE PROTECTION TO THE PARTS ABOVE THE OIL LEVEL" a dry start

The way a splash system works the oil differs from that of a pressurized system.
I rebuild many T engines and never the same one twice. 15W-20 to 30 for a fresh rebuild and 15W-20 to 40 for normal conditions and 20W-50 for high mileage, that suits normal T driving weather.

[TXGOAT2]

Modern oils do provide some startup lubrication. I know of no automotive engine that has major working parts, such as the crankshaft assembly and the camshaft, submerged in oil when it is shut down. They all start "dry", and they all have vital parts that are not pressure-lubricated. 20W oil, and more especially early day 20W oil, as well as modern-day cheap 20W and heavier oils, will quickly drain back to the oil pan and remain there when a hot engine is shut down. Some oil is retained in engine bearings and around pistons and rings by capillary action and by oil grooves and surface finish. A splash-oiled engine, and most other engines, will get oiled up more quickly and thoroughly after initial startup, especially in colder weather, using a light-bodied oil. Ford emphasized this point repeatedly. I get excellent results by following Ford's recommendation while taking advantage of the many superior qualities found in high quality modern motor oil. You can grease your engine if you like, but you'll get better results using a high quality, light bodied oil with good cold flowability and high film strength in a Model T. Thick oil will not repair a worn engine, nor will it adjust loose bearings in a Model T.

[TXGOAT2]

The Model T Ford engine/transmission/clutch unit is a unique design shared by no other car. The flywheel-driven oil distribution system is also unique, as far as I know. Ford insisted on a light-bodied, high quality oil with excellent low temperature flowability and high resistance to high temperature breakdown. Good quality synthetic oil available today exceeds the Ford recommendation. It outperforms any oil available in the 1920s, including hot film strength, by a wide margin under a very wide range of operating conditions. Actual extended use, including under severe conditions at high speeds, confirms the suitability of 0W20, 5W20, and 10W30 synthetic oil in stock and modified Model T engines. It offers many advantages over heavier weight oils and straight grade oils when used in a Model T. Everyone can make their own choice. I choose to use what has been demonstrated to give excellent results in severe real world operating conditions in actual Model Ts.

[Kerry]

In what instructions do Ford recommend anything lighter than light oil of 20W you call it grease to use 20 Pat, stick some OW in one spindle and a 20W in the other and see what's on the shed floor the next day.

[TXGOAT2]

There are no spindles or roller bearings in my engine. The ball bearings in the generator seem to thrive on light bodied motor oil. As for the T transmission, I think you'd find that the quality, light bodied oil it was designed to use is best for it. You might want to follow your suggestion and use a good 5W30 synthetic motor oil in your T front wheel bearings. I suspect that it would work very well in a Model T front wheel bearing, if you could keep the oil in and dirt out. FWIW,some heavy duty trailer wheel bearings now use a light gear oil instead of wheel bearing grease. They seem to give excellent OTR service.

[TXGOAT2]

Ford recommended a "light cylinder oil" WITH A LOW COLD TEST for the T. That corresponds very well with a good 0W20, 5W20, or 10W30 synthetic oil. The synthetic oil made today is superior in every way to the best oil available in the 1910-1920 era. Don't use it if you don't want to. I do use it, and I get excellent results. I routinely drive my Model T at speeds over 40 MPH in warm to very hot weather, over 100F. Most trips are over 30 miles. I've driven the car around 10,000 miles in the last year and a half, with no oil related issues, and no significant issues of any kind. Oil consumption is VERY low, and leakage is minimal.

[Scott_Conger]

Pat

You ought to take the time to explain to your audience that your "aw shucks, average ol' T engine" is an ex-MT500 engine. That it is balanced to the "nth" degree, running the most "tweeked" parts possible, and almost certainly has needle bearing triple gears.

The fact remains that NOT A SINGLE LUBRICANT MANUFACTURER recommends 0W-20 in an engine running over 160F internal temperature, that has large bearing clearances like our beloved "T". We are urged to follow the example of a one-off guy who has had success with it. Since you are advocating that the use 0W-20 oil in their car, is a wonderful thing, whether it is a MT500 engine or an old worn out original, are you prepared to pay Forum Members for the damage that great advice will cause many of them?

Why not show us the depth of your wisdom by backing it up with some $$?

[TXGOAT2]

The engine is stock except for the aluminum pistons and the camshaft and valves. I believe the transmission is stock except for the Kevlar bands. I have mentioned several times that the car has run the MT 500, and finished every time out, and posted repectable times. I have put 37.7 miles on the car today, with maximum speed of 48 MPH and moving average 36 MPH. Moving average is low because I have to drive several miles on bad gravel roads to reach pavement. Most run time is above 40 MPH. Oil's OK, still full, and all the rods are still on the crankshaft. From time to time, I operate the engine, hot, as described in the T manual to check for knocks or rattles. I do this both sitting still and running down the road at low speeds No knocks are evident. Model T bearing clearances are similar to later model engines, and the long bearings have a lot of surface area for the loads they carry. The small journal diameters reduce rubbing speeds in an already low speed engine. An electric tachometer indicates that my engine is running at 1800 RPM at a Garmin-indicated road speed of 48 MPH. As for oil temperatures, Late model engines run very hot, including the oil temperature, at high speeds and high bearing loads. They're quite reliable. OW oils are widely recommended for these engines. Ford recommended a light oil that would not thicken excessively at low temperatures. That's what I use, and that's what others have used, extensively, with excellent results all around. The last thing you want in a splash lubricated engine, and a T engine in particular, is thick oil, more especially in cold weather.

[TXGOAT2]

I have not recommended any particular oil for a worn out Model T. I would recommend adjustment or repair for a worn out engine.

[TXGOAT2]

I stand by everything that I have actually written in this thread.

[Scott_Conger]

I stand by everything that I have actually written in this thread.

Excellent. Where can people send their bills in the future for reimbursement?

[TXGOAT2]

To you, of course. FWIW, I have a good deal of money in my car, and I take good care of it. I have driven it extensively, and intend to keep doing do, weather permitting. I often travel many miles from home, in rural areas, and I depend on the car to get me out and back. I have no support team. No cell phone. You may do as you like. I'll do the same.

[TXGOAT2]

Update: Today's mileage has reached 61.4. Moving average: 37 MPH Top speed: 48 MPH. Engine still intact.

[Kerry]

The debate is mostly based on one side by opinion and not the understanding of today's oil in old design bearings.

First, a splash bearing relies 100% on hydrodynamic lubrication, meaning that shaft to bearing pressurizes the oil in a wedge between the faces.

Now the oil, A multi grade oils does not get thicker as it gets to operating temp. all oils thin with heat but a multi grade formulated with additives to act like it's thicker under pressure, a higher viscosity oil has been measured to get up to 600+ PSI in a hydrodynamic lubrication system.
Now a 0W starting point, an oil that is designed to move fast for modern engine specs which can be less than 1/2 of a run in model T.
For a 0W-20 to get the oil to act like the 20 it must get to operating temp to do so. A O oil will have trouble to be able to float the bearing surface from the shaft to create the hydrodynamic pressure required, it's thin and simply is just pushed out of T bearing clearances, it needs to get hot to get close to a 20 to do any good.

So by engineering standards the 0w oil on a cold engine splash system is running metal to metal until it's able to generate enough heat to lift it's viscosity. So Henry had it right , a 20 to work from a first start.

[TXGOAT2]

"the 0w oil on a cold engine splash system is running metal to metal until it's able to generate enough heat to lift it's viscosity"

My engine is truly amazing.... runs metal-to-metal with no issues. That 0W is even better than Slick 50!!

[Steve Jelf]

In fifteen years following the forum I have gained some Model T knowledge, but mechanically I consider myself still a novice. I am not, and likely never will be, a practiced expert Model T mechanic. I am in awe of the expertise shown by some forum regulars. So when said regulars offer strongly conflicting opinions, that presents this still-novice with a bit of a dilemma. Which advice do I follow? In this instance I take the two positions to be: 1 0W-20 and 5W-20 oils are good to use in a Model T, or 2 No, they are not. As a non-expert, I have to go with the majority opinion. A driver/mechanic famous for logging thousands of miles a year uses 20W-50. An engine rebuilder with hundreds, maybe thousands, of engines to his credit uses 15W-40 in his own T's. Others I consider quite knowledgeable offer similar examples or advice. As a non-expert myself, I will go with the majority opinion and choose what's behind Door #2.

[JohnH]

Today I replaced the 0W20 with 10W30 to see how the starting drag compares. I had contemplated 5W30, but seeing how the 0W20 had done such a good job with the clutch, I thought I'd push my luck a bit further and try 10W30. From all aspects of starting, the 10W30 seems just as good. No trouble at all hand cranking it with the wheels on the ground. Nice and free, and can feel each compression point. The real test will be of course to see how it starts after it's been sitting over night in the cold.
10W30 also seems to be surrounded in less controversy, and supported by comments like, "Have been using full Synthetic 10-30 since building the engine in our 13 touring approx. 20 years ago. To date, no bearing adjustments" (http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1538697922)

[Rata Road]

I'm keen to hear the result for your next cold start John although your binding issue was not nearly as bad as mine.
And I won't be changing my oil anytime soon.
I have learned over the years that some people don't like it if you don't follow their path and will try things to make you comply... "you better start a rebuild fund".
1. My first T is 12v and I got all the "you better carry spare bendix spring" comments. This car has very high compression compared to my 2 6v Ts so should be harder cranking. 7 years later still no bendix issues but one of my 6v T's broke one, funny.
2. Same car has an original vapourizer carb, doom gloom take that off.
This car starts perfectly every time hot or cold and I have never adjusted the settings, taken the bowl off, replaced gaskets etc unlike the other two NH Holleys that require tinkering. Easily the best carby set up I have.

This is a brilliant forum and I value and listen to every persons input and then decide which path I will take on the information provided, not just follow the majority opinion.

[TXGOAT2]

I have had excellent results running 0W20 synthetic for mile upon mile in very hot weather for about 1,000 miles total. Trip length averages around 30 miles. Moving average speeds are in the 37 to 40 MPH range. I limit top speed to 50 MPH, and usually run at 42 to 45 MPH, Garmin-indicated. There are a couple of hills in the area that require full throttle for 30 seconds to about a minute at highway speed. I get similar results running 10W30 synthetic as with the 0W20 in hot weather. The engine sounds and performs the same with either in very hot weather at road speeds over 40 MPH. My next oil change will be to 5W30 or 5W20, since cooler weather may be in store. If a good 0W20 is available at a good price, I'll probably use that.

[TXGOAT2]

Update: Drove 68.2 miles today, moving average 39 MPH, maximum speed: 48 MPH. Engine remains intact.

[Kerry]

Experimenting with what oil to use is one's own choice but if it turns out to be a failure a full rebuild here in Australia with crank and drums etc will exceed $11.000.oo US.

[Steve Jelf]

It all comes put of the same pipe.

~ Kirk B. Jelf, refinery still operator for forty years.

Maybe Dad was right.

[JohnH]

Theory is a good starting point, but practical results are the important thing in the end.
The "Because I've always done it this way and never had any problems" argument is good for knowing what does work, but isn't justification for discounting everything else. There might also be other ways that never have any problems, which is what I'm exploring here.
And this, Kevin and Pat, is why your input is especially useful, since you're both actually using 0W20.
One thing is for certain, I'd still be going through the 5 minute grind with the back wheel jacked up if I hadn't tried 0W20. A Model T is supposed to be crank started with the wheels on the ground, and that has now been achieved.

This morning's start with 10W-30 was without any difficulty, but I could detect more drag than 0W20. Nevertheless, I had no difficulty hand cranking with the wheels on the ground, and it started perfectly on the 2nd crank. On that basis, 10W30 would probably be my upper limit.
Don't be surprised if the 0W20 goes back in at some future time. I like how the engine starts and runs with it - so quiet and smooth, as well as more responsive. Also, I did notice I could go up hills a bit further in top gear with it. It's important to note that I wasn't looking for these improvements; they were just surprises I wasn't expecting. All I was hoping for was a non-dragging clutch. Perhaps surprisingly, with the 0W20, there's no extra dripping on the garage floor, and the felt crankshaft seal isn't leaking. Although I haven't tested it, I would also expect the oil to start flowing through the inside oil tube and magneto post oiler a lot sooner than with 20W50.

[TXGOAT2]

My car exhibits minimal leakage. It would probably leak even less if I removed the Texas T high volume outside oiler. I found it necessary to add a restriction orifice to the device to avoid over-oiling at idle. It still moves a lot of oil, probable a good deal more than a mag post oiler My engine has a modern type seal at the timer case, and probably has one at the forward end of the crankshaft. Oil loss from any cause is very, very low. I drove the car over 90 miles total yesterday, with most of the run time above 40 MPH. // I believe you'll get good results with a quality 0W20 synthetic in cool or cold weather. In warm to very hot weather, I'm confident that a quality synthetic 5W30 or 10W30 is a good choice. As stated, I have run 0W20 for an extended period in very hot weather, 100 to 105 F, at speeds up to 50 MPH, with no adverse issues whatsoever.

[Kerry]

Pat, you should really read this thread from top to bottom again, for example in your last post you state "with no adverse issues whatsoever" No one has said that Hot on 0w-20 would give issues, the oil at operating temperature is what Henry recommended by then, acting as a 20, It's the 0 at cold that's in question.

[TXGOAT2]

Starting at 0 degrees F, or anywhere near it, is when you REALLY need the 0W phase of 0W20. At 0F, or anywhere near it, a good quality straight grade 0W, 5W, or 10W is just fine for lubricating a cold Model T engine, transmission, and clutch. HOWEVER, as the engine and the oil WARM UP, any of these might be a little on the thin side, though I doubt the 10W would give any problems in freezing weather, even if you drove all day. A 0W20 synthetic, or similar multi-grade oils, WILL NOT thin excessively when a cold engine warms up, even under very hot weather conditions and running at highway speeds for many miles. It WILL NOT thicken to the point of causing starting and lubrication problems in very cold weather. In short, synthetic multi grade oils with a low first number are ideal for Model T Fords. They exceed Ford's recommendations, coming and going. It's not that hard to understand, and it's not my idea, and I do not sell oil. I do drive a Model T in hot weather at 40-45 MPH rather often, and I do use 0W20 and 10W30 synthetic oil. I also use it in a couple of high output, hot-running, late model vehicles which demand a lot more of oil as far as bearing protection at high engine and oil temperatures at high speeds and high loads than does a Model T.

[Kerry]

Pat, It seems that you will never understand the needs of a Hydrodynamic system requirements to operate correctly if you keep comparing it to a pressurized dynamic system

[TXGOAT2]

You need to improve and broaden your own understanding of how the Model T lubrication system works and how it is affected by the characteristics of the oil used in it. Lack of a pressure oiling system in the T, not to mention the planetary transmission and multi-disc clutch arrangement, makes using a lubricant that flows well at low temperatures MORE important, not LESS important.

[Kerry]

And what lubrication is happening in a hydrodynamic bearing if oil can leave as fast as it can be delivered at 0,, oops that answered it's self, Zero

[TXGOAT2]

Nope. But you do as you like. I'll continue to do what works, and works well. As Paul Harvey used to say, "Good day!"

[Kerry]

Pat, may be of interest to you, I found it interesting, BMW, so the story go's, have started actively denying warranty claims if owners didn't make the switch to 10W-60 from the original recommended 5W-30, dated 2017. And now have engineered crank bearing tolerances to run 10W-40. I'm sure that Germany's weather would compare to much of USA's.

[TXGOAT2]

I do not drive a BMW. I am not a resident of Germany. 10W60 is an extreme multi-grade oil. You'd best avoid it, and avoid those splash-lubricated BMWs, also. I do drive a Model T Ford in very hot Texas weather, typically for miles on end at speeds that are in the upper range of what a Model T can be expected to tolerate. I have not run the car in very cold weather, but in the event that I did, I would want a fresh fill of 0W20 synthetic oil in the crankcase.

[TXGOAT2]

Germany once enjoyed long, frigid winters and short, mild summers. But now, with Climate Change, IT'S SWELTERING! Pooh on Putin! Who needs Putin's gas?

[TXGOAT2]

Concerning motor oil:
Detergent oils are designed to hold VERY SMALL particles in supension. These particles, typically soot, are mostly too small to be trapped by modern oil filters, and they are only harmful when they accumulate on inside surfaces of engines. Keeping them in suspension prevents this, and allows them to be removed when oil is drained. Larger carbon particles and some ferrous metal particles are captured by the oil filter, if present, or by magnetic drain plugs, or, in the case of the Model T, the flywheel magnets or owner-added magnets. Most metal particles, especially larger ones, tend to quickly settle to the bottom of the oil pan sump or other areas where oil turbulence is least likely to affect them. In the case of the typical Model T in service today, metallic debris will consist of aluminum, babbit metal, or brass, with some cast iron and perhaps some hard steel from the transmission gears. Babbit, aluminum,and brass particles will not be captured by magnets. Hard alloy steels are not highly attracted to magnets. Most metal particles will settle out in the sump or other specific areas and remain there. Use of a multi-grade oil with a low first number will prevent these particles and other debris, such as fiber lint from transmission bands, from being dislodged and circulated with the oil during cold weather engine operation. Cold-thickened oil can pick up, suspend, and circulate debris that would otherwise remain settled-out and harmless.

[Tim Rogers]

match.jpg (10.91 KiB) Viewed 11000 times

[TXGOAT2]

True enough.... but it has not one damned thing to do with motor oil.

[Scott_Conger]

Tim

your posting elicited perhaps the most hilariously un-self aware response ever

touché!

[Quickm007]

Concerning motor oil:
Detergent oils are designed to hold VERY SMALL particles in supension. These particles, typically soot, are mostly too small to be trapped by modern oil filters, and they are only harmful when they accumulate on inside surfaces of engines. Keeping them in suspension prevents this, and allows them to be removed when oil is drained. Larger carbon particles and some ferrous metal particles are captured by the oil filter, if present, or by magnetic drain plugs, or, in the case of the Model T, the flywheel magnets or owner-added magnets. Most metal particles, especially larger ones, tend to quickly settle to the bottom of the oil pan sump or other areas where oil turbulence is least likely to affect them. In the case of the typical Model T in service today, metallic debris will consist of aluminum, babbit metal, or brass, with some cast iron and perhaps some hard steel from the transmission gears. Babbit, aluminum,and brass particles will not be captured by magnets. Hard alloy steels are not highly attracted to magnets. Most metal particles will settle out in the sump or other specific areas and remain there. Use of a multi-grade oil with a low first number will prevent these particles and other debris, such as fiber lint from transmission bands, from being dislodged and circulated with the oil during cold weather engine operation. Cold-thickened oil can pick up, suspend, and circulate debris that would otherwise remain settled-out and harmless.

So Pat, what is your recommendations for oil ? Your explanations make sense for me. Actually I using non detergent oil SAE10W. I'm good or out of the field ?