What Years Are These Model Ts From?

vbergman · Post by **vbergman** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:41 pm

I'm working on a local history project where photographs of these Model Ts will be featured. Does anyone know what years these cars are from? I believe the first photo is of a Touring Car and the second is a Fordoor Sedan. The license plate on the car in photo #2 is from 1930. I'm not sure about the years these cars were constructed. I appreciate any information you might have. Thanks!

Vic

Post by **RajoRacer** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:46 pm

Touring is around a '17 - '22 - the Sedan is a '26 - '27. Without the engine #'s can't be more specific.

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:50 pm

I'd say the touring has fixed bottom windshield glass and sloping frame. 1923/25. on a second look it also has a LH door so Canadian, which could make it a year earlier than a USA sloping windshield model. But still has a 2 man top.

Post by **jiminbartow** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:51 pm

Due to the wire wheels the Fordor is most likely a 1927. My February, 1926 Fordor had wooden spokes. Jim Patrick

Post by **RajoRacer** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:56 pm

The Touring w.s. might be an accessory (or could be Canadian) - notice the side lamp brackets are present sans the lamps so it might be a non-starter car and the w.s. "screws" into the frame unlike a '24 - '25. Also appears to be a 5 pc. rear section.

vbergman · Post by **vbergman** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:03 pm

Both cars were from Canada (Alberta).

Vic

Post by **kmatt2** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:48 pm

In the 2nd picture the Ford 4 door could be 1926 or 1927 but with the head lights mounted on the tie bar and the wire wheels I would say it is a 1927. In the 1st picture the Ford touring is a Canadian made car because it has a drivers door. The touring also has a 5 panel back section last used in USA cars in 1920 and a sloping windshield not used in USA cars until 1923, but used in Canadian made cars after about 1919. The Canadian touring was most likely made just after the end of WW 1 and is a late 1919 or a 1920 car.

Post by **kmatt2** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:48 pm

Also note on the touring the repair to the torn top requiring the top bow to be relocated slightly rearward. The car also has the horn button mounted on the top side of steering column like the 1916 - 1917 USA made Ford cars.

vbergman · Post by **vbergman** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:09 pm

This is a lot of great information shared by everyone. Thank you to all who responded. I was not expecting this kind of response within minutes of posting. It was the same owner in both photos. The gentleman in the photos would go on to own what I believe to be a 1930 Ford Model A Fordor Sedan (shown below) which he operated until the mid to late 50s. All three are great-looking cars. It would be interesting to know what became of them.

Vic

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:20 pm

I think we can get it a little closer to a year, Canadian parts book list both the sloping windshield and one man top starting in 1920, well before the USA model, so to have the new windshield but using the run out of a 2 man top (1919) I'm sure it would make it an early 1920 model.

Post by **kmatt2** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:31 am

Yes you are correct on the last car, it is a 1930 Ford Model A delux 4 door. On my small phone it looks to be a Murray made body with the curved window frames.

vbergman · Post by **vbergman** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:39 am

Thanks for the reply on the 1930 Ford Model A. I was able to see the bill of sale for this car.

Vic

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:11 am

The tourer appears to have non demountable, round wooden felloe wheels. I would expect those to be on an earlier car than 1919. The slanted windscreen may be misleading. If the first bow was vertical, as it should be, the front bow would be a long way forward of the windscreen. If the windscreen was vertical, it would line up far better with the front bow. Perhaps the windscreen has been replaced.

Allan from down under.

Alan Long · Post by **Alan Long** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:25 am

Appears to be a replacement Honey Comb Radiator Core on the 27?
Also, the Tyre thread pattern is similar to what Blockley are making now with their new mould.
Alan In Western Australia

MichaelPawelek · Post by **MichaelPawelek** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:50 am

Holy Toledo, Look at the size of those mushrooms in the last photo!

Post by **DLodge** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:30 am

vbergman wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:09 pm
... I was not expecting this kind of response within minutes of posting.

Is this your first time posting a question about Model Ts on the Model T Forum?

vbergman · Post by **vbergman** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:39 am

They are monster mushrooms! They must have grown bigger here in those days.

Vic

vbergman · Post by **vbergman** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:47 am

Yes, it's the first time I have posted on the Model T Forum. I'm doing research for a book about a family who lived in my community. I would like to use the photos of the Model Ts in the book and would like to provide some information on what years these models were made when I make reference to them. Thanks again to everyone who responded. I appreciate it very much!

Vic

Post by **Mark Nunn** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 10:19 am

The Fordor is a late-production '27. It has the gently curved front axle like number 15,000,000.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 10:53 am

What's the difference between a Mushroom and a toadstool? My parents told me that Mushrooms are the ones you buy at the store, and toadstools are the ones which grow wild. And they said the wild ones are poison. Do not eat them.
I suspect that touring car was assembled from parts of several different year cars.
Norm

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:05 am

Mushrooms? I thought they were turtles.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:12 am

So much of my information was wrong, that I am deleting it to avoid confusing Vic, the OP. Kerry schooled me on Canadian cars and for that I am grateful...I learned quit a bit today...

And the photo is made all the more wonderful by the wonderful smile on the child in that great pedal car!

Post by **TWrenn** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:21 am

Crowned fenders..so maybe even a '17?

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:24 am

Tim

horn button on it came out in '18, and though a little hard to tell, doesn't appear to have the mounts on the windshield posts for side lights

Post by **TWrenn** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:11 pm

Ah haaa Scott!
Better eyes!!

Thanks for clarifying. Love the way we can learn these little Itty bitty ditties here!!

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:46 pm

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:24 am
. . . doesn't appear to have the mounts on the windshield posts for side lights

?!? I'm confused. I see mounts for sidelights on the windshield posts, which look to me like the 1917-22 type for a vertical fold over windshield - however canted aft like the later 1923 style windshields. No one mentioned the non-demountable wheels.

What a great picture ! Dad, the dog and the boy in the pedal car having a lot of fun mugging for the camera. Sis seems unamused though.

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:11 pm

I can rule out any date past 1920, it has an upper front radius rod with a lower kit on it, and I can rule out any date pre 1920, those hood bow clamps, unique to Canadian T's starting in 1920.

Erik Johnson · Post by **Erik Johnson** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:24 pm

Just a reminder that it's a Canadian Ford as indicated by the original poster and others and the photo itself:

- driver's side door
- Canadian top saddle clamps (not saddles with leather pads and straps)
- side-curtain hooks on the windshield
- additional details I may have missed

Subsequently, you can't use U.S. model year changes to describe a Canadian car.

For the casual observer who thinks it is a U.S. car, it can only be a 1917 Ford. However, that goes out the window the details mentioned above.

PS: that horn button is correct for a U.S. made 1917 Ford. The combination light switch-horn button came out early in the 1918 model year and mounts 90 degrees from the steering column, not an "oversize doorbell button" on top of the column as shown in the photo.

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:51 pm

I looked at the first photo on photoshop. A little higher resolution would help but it's not bad.
I'm wondering if the top was damaged by running into a low garage opening or the like? Maybe the windshield frame is bent, I can't be sure. Here is what I did notice.
1) It appears the top was designed for a straight (not angled) windshield as there is way too much overhang.
2) The windshield brackets do have cups for attaching sidelights. The two bolts holding the bracket to the body are not level to the body, maybe bent back? Perhaps whatever happened to the top and windshield damaged the lamps and he chose to remove them.
3) Most of the sockets are oval which in the US would have ended with 1917 production. The left rear upright appears to be square tube which began in 1918. Again, possible indication of damage and replacement.
4) Demountable wheels became optional in the US and Canada in 1919. Prior to that, in Canada all four wheels were 30x3.5 inch wood spoked.
5) The horn button is like the magneto horn in my 1917.

My guess - a 1917 non-starter car that had some top damage and repairs which may have required windshield frame replacement or resulted in a bent windshield frame. Great picture BTW.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:38 pm

Perhaps an early, wet, heavy snow collapsed the top and pulled the windshield back, or a slab of snow slid off a roof and collapsed the top.

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:58 pm

Or, it's simply what parts books list, a sloping style windshield with lamp pads, 1920 to 23.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:12 pm

Kerry

EDIT after some research...Kerry thank you for introducing me to "slanting windshields" on Canadian cars...that is a new one on me!

During this little adventure into researching the manufacturing differences between USA and Canadian built cars, it seems that in 1920, not only were there slanting windshields, but the tops were 1 man tops, too boot (which I now realized, you posted earlier)...if that is so, then this vehicle with a two man top still dates to likely a very early 1920 model (first year of Canadian slant windshield) and the carry-over of the 1919 top (which the book says was not supposed to be there, but is!)...pretty darn interesting

Thank you for making the distinction of the windshield...in 40 years of fooling with these things, I never knew that.

vbergman · Post by **vbergman** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:19 pm

Tim,

Here is a the first photo with twice the resolution. This might make it easier to look at in PS.

Vic

Burger in Spokane · Post by **Burger in Spokane** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:28 am

I think you all need to go back and check your books. Everyone knows
that black fender-mount dogs weren't available until 1925.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:27 am

When were round felloe wheels superseded by square felloe wheels?

Allan from down under.

Marshall V. Daut · Post by **Marshall V. Daut** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:41 am

Not to split hairs here, but the pictured Model A is actually a Town Sedan. That's Town SEDAN, not Town CAR, as so many misinformed people call it. The Town CAR is a whole 'nother animal, as it is in the Model T line. Ford didn't refer to the Town Sedan with "Deluxe" in its name. There were "Deluxe" body styles in 1930-31, to be sure, but this isn't one of them in terms of nomenclature. I am surprised that at least one major interior supplier constantly refers to Towns Sedans as "Deluxe" on its order form. The Town Sedan may have "Deluxe" appointments, but it is technically and authentically incorrect to call this body style "Deluxe".

The pictured sedan may be a 1930 or an early 1931 (before May) when the slant windshield bodies replaced the four-door's straight windshield. Too bad the view of the side splash apron is blocked. That would help us determine whether it is a 1930 or 1931 with a 90% degree of certainty, the reason being some early 1931 Model A's were built with obsoleted 1930 side splash aprons. Ford didn't waste anything, so the assembly plants continued installing the two-piece 1930 splash aprons on the 1931 Model A's until supplies were exhausted. Then the true one-piece 1931 splash aprons were installed on the assembly line.

More than you probably wanted to know on a Model T website. But somebody DID ask!

Marshall

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:02 am

Allan, can't help on a date from round to square, parts books only say non- demountable tapered rear hub 1912 until 1920, or less hub 1909 to 20 and demountable start in 1919. As for the photo, I zoomed in at 500% and 99% sure they are square felloes.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:02 am

Thanks for the better image Frank. Zooming is not in my bag of tricks, yet! They are indeed square felloes, making for a 19-20 model.

Allan from down under.

vbergman · Post by **vbergman** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:23 am

Here is another side view photo of the Model A. Hope it's okay to post it here. Thanks for the continued discussion. I am learning a lot!

Vic

Post by **kmatt2** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:02 am

That is a very interesting radiator cap on the Model A. Who needs a flying quail radiator cap when you have a good bird dog. I wonder if any caps like this one survived to into 2022.

Post by **RajoRacer** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:38 am

Looks like a Ford Greyhound ?

John Codman · Post by **John Codman** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:12 pm

Mark Nunn wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 04, 2022 10:19 am
The Fordor is a late-production '27. It has the gently curved front axle like number 15,000,000.

My '27 is is in the 14,800,000 range and does not have the curved axle, so you are probably correct.

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:29 pm

Ref: The touring car. Higher resolution helps. I've been referring to the Canadian Supplement to the MTFCI Judging guidelines which are pretty specific.

1.) In 1920 the Canadian touring cars had slanted windshields but they were not of the type on this car. Both sections could pivot and were secured by nickel plated wing nuts. This windshield is the same as the upright ones - only the top section could pivot. I think Scott is right that the windshield is bent or an earlier windshield is installed in later brackets if such a thing is possible.
2.) I notice a couple of pieces of baling wire that have been added to reinforce the top. One appears to attach the first upright bow on the left to the windshield. Something obviously happened. The patch on the roof suggest the bow was bent and ripped the top.
3.) The left front strap to the top appears to be hooked under the windshield pivot point - missing the top buckle loop. Also, look at the different angles of the two front straps
4.) Again, I see mostly oval sockets (1917) with one square one (1918+)
5.) It appears to have a wood steering wheel - Towards the end of the 1920 Model year they switched to a 16 inch Fordite wheel. Also, starting in 1919 the horn button was integrated into the steering wheel nut. This horn button is typical of magneto horns and would only be found in a 1917-18 car.
6.) Canadian wheels during this period were oval spokes and round felloes. These appear to be round spokes and square felloes. No explanation for the discrepancy.

I still think it's a 1917 or if a 1918, it has a mostly '17 top. It has definitely had some work done.

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:54 pm

Tim, I'm sure that a lot of research went into guidelines for judging but I have to say that maybe our overseas Ford parts books may differ from Canadian ones?, example, only list one steering rim as 16" wood to 1923, then a change to the 17" another the horns, Magneto up to 1927 and with it's own part number button and electric also with it's own button, maybe just a difference on wiring?
Also the more I look I'm having to admit that others would be correct on a bent early windshield frame, the slant/sloping one, parts book shows the same glass for top and bottom.

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Tue Sep 06, 2022 12:04 pm

Frank - My understanding was that Australia did pretty much their own thing with the cars received from Canada. The judging guidelines do not address cars other than those built and used in the US and Canada. It would be wonderful to have such information but a daunting task to collect it.

I am not a member of the "Model T Police" and do not typically nit-pick every little detail on a car. That said, Vic asked, and having a car from that era ('17) I took an interest in it. My opinions are my own and no more valid than anyone else. Regardless, it is a great photo....you can almost imagine the driver and kids looking across the decades to us today....

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:25 pm

Tim, yes that can be the case when it comes to body styles, Parts books are printed in Canada in the same format as the USA ones just labeled Overseas Edition, I also have one printed in New Zealand, still the same but adding their local prices for parts. I do like to try and learn the differences on time lines of when parts are used in Canada compared to USA. Some changes happened well in advance in Canada compared to USA but other things seem to show up that Canada was a dumping point for USA surplus parts after changes. Example, Dodge Brothers parts still in 1916 or things like the windshield and one man top, Canada lowered the diff plug some 4 years before USA. I do have a Ford times showing that the Brass T rolling Chassie was still an option for the 1917 model. What would be the judging guideline on a commercial body built on a brass T with a 17 engine? Someone once said Ford still built them for the army or is it another case of model change surplus parts? or even just a misprint? Any way all good fun to try and work out but will we ever really know?

A PS, I'm adding If of any interest? on the inconsistencies on time line of what parts used, this nice early photo of a 1916 T shows that it has forked electric head lights, something we believed was only on a handful of the first of the 1915 Canadian T's.

amesbuilt · Post by **amesbuilt** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 5:05 pm

Looks like a late teens or early 20's Gendron made in Toronto.

[image]

: 1919 gendron.jpg (45.68 KiB) Viewed 6526 times

[/image]

Aussie16 · Post by **Aussie16** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:25 pm

Even the Pedal car is now identified. Amazing knowledge at this forum.

Bruce Compton · Post by **Bruce Compton** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:57 pm

My guess for the touring is 1917-18. I think the we are seeing the original windshield bent back at an angle. Look at the cowl light mounts that are angled up and also the excessive distance from the front of the top to the top of the windshield. Obviously with the driver's door, it's a Canadian car, non-electric with (non-demountable wheels and oil side lights) and a magneto horn and standard horn button. I don't know enough about wheel details to comment although using leftovers was common for Ford of Canada too. The sedan is most likely a 1927 .....wire wheels, headlight bar, and nickel rad shell and headlight doors, all rare even in 1927 in Canada.

vbergman · Post by **vbergman** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:04 pm

amesbuilt wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 18, 2022 5:05 pm
Looks like a late teens or early 20's Gendron made in Toronto.

[image]1919 gendron.jpg[/image]

That's a great ad!

Vic B.

Stephen_heatherly · Post by **Stephen_heatherly** » Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:35 am

The touring has an over the axle wishbone. 1917-18

Stephen