Inspection Denial

[mtntee20]

This may well be the shape of things to come.

The Colorado DMV required a VIN inspection on our Milk Truck. Appointments are required and are filled for a minimum of 6-8 weeks in advance. Yesterday I took our '27 Milk Truck Delivery for inspection yesterday.

I was denied/failed inspection based on ONE thing: WOOD BODY. The Colorado State Patrol does not believe a wood bodied vehicle is safe to drive on the road. Thus, a wood bodied vehicle is NOT Road Worthy. This is a Currier Horseless Carriage body approximately 3 years old.

I was offered a "Rebuilder's approval". This allows a person to obtain a title but NOT any type of license plate. The vehicle would have to be hauled to any/every event and could NOT be driven on the road, even in a parade. In order to obtain a full VIN/Road Worthy inspection, we will have to find an Automotive Engineer who will certify the vehicle for Road Worthiness. I'm sure ALL of us here, have a direct line to an Automotive Engineer for such a certification. All of this to get a Collector Series plate that limits driving on road to 4500 miles per year.

I am unsure if the windshield is safety glass or not. This will be addressed by a competent Glass company and replaced if necessary, All the lights work. The tires are good, and the truck is in very good to excellent condition and has Rocky Mountain Brakes to boot. The body is properly assembled, mounted, and tight.

Anyone know of an Automotive Engineer in the Denver, Colorado area?

Looks like NO license until at least next year.

Is this how the government is going to push us OFF the roads?

[TXGOAT2]

My contempt for bureaucracy grows by the day. I would not consider moving to Calirado. Safety glass is a reasonable requirement. As for "road safety" or crash-worthiness, it's similar to most any motor home, if not better, given the vehicle's lower speed range and better handling and visibility.

[ironhorse]

Heck! Do what everyone else does Sue them for infringing on your right to pursue Happiness!

[Loftfield]

Better than suing for infringement on the right to happiness, merely let it be known as far as possible that you are offended.

[FreighTer Jim]

This may well be the shape of things to come.


I was denied/failed inspection based on ONE thing: WOOD BODY. The Colorado State Patrol does not believe a wood bodied vehicle is safe to drive on the road. Thus, a wood bodied vehicle is NOT Road Worthy. This is a Currier Horseless Carriage body approximately 3 years old.

Understandable

You have - essentially - a 3 year old vehicle that has
a body made of wood.

It doesn’t meet current safety requirements
to be traveling on shared public roadways.


FJ

[TXGOAT2]

It's a 1927 Ford, as indicated by the VIN. There are many rebodied or custom-bodied vehicles on the road, including most school busses and many commercial vehicles.

[Scott_Conger]

Terry

go down to the Forney Museum and ask for Kristoff...he's the head poo-bah there. Ask him for advice registering your car and if he has a favorite person at the DMV/State Trooper to come out and check the VIN. As in all things, having the right people do the job is the key to success. You might even have them MEET YOU AT THE MUSEUM...that would lend an aura of credibility, as in "there are a bunch of wood bodied cars registered inside that darn building right there".

I really do think this is the place I'd start if I was in CO.

check your email for more info

[Erik Johnson]

The very first thing I would do is research the Colorado motor vehicle statutes, especially those that pertain to antique, collector class, street rod, etc. vehicles and see if there is any prohibition on registering wood-bodied vehicles and operating them on public roads. That should trump the opinion of the state patrol.

Frankly, if wood-bodied antique automobiles cannot be registered or operated on Colorado roads, then, theoretically, a number of currently registered brass-era antique automobiles in your state are operating illegally and should should have their registrations revoked. Frankly, I doubt that would ever happen because I doubt your state laws prohibit wood-bodied vehicles. (Then there are cars that have sheet metal over wood-frame bodies. That would wipe out a majority of antique cars into the early 1930s.)

Most if not all states have exemptions for antique automobiles stating that modern standards do not apply. For example, if the antique car did not come from the factory equipped with brake lights, the vehicle is not required to have brake lights in order to be registered and operated on the road. Because your vehicle is period correct, I would think the fact that it has a wooden body and would be neither here nor there.

Here in Minnesota, we are fortunate to have simple, common sense and liberal laws pertaining to "collector class" vehicles and a strong and highly influential collector vehicle lobby, primarily the Minnesota Street Rod Association so we don't have to deal with issues such as yours.

[sweet23]

Just remember, the people making the laws do not care one thing about the collector car hobby or the hot rod hobby. It may be time for the collector car hobby to start lobbying law makers before the hobby is pushed into garages across the country. The hot rod hobby has SEMA, they have had enough pull to keep the hot rod hobby alive. AACA is big enough, though I wonder if they care enough about the very early cars anymore to help. Maybe the Horseless carriage club, and the two Model T clubs need to band together to keep our hobby from being legislated off the road.

[John Codman]

The bodies of most straight Trucks are Aluminum sheeting over a wooden structure. The last time that I checked, the driver of the straight truck rides in the same vehicle with the wooden body. I presume that these vehicles are also prohibited in Colorado. Talk about stupid!

[John kuehn]

If you painted it green it probably would have passed.
It boils down on the individual doing the inspection.

Remember folks there are already some states who want to ban new gas powered vehicles to be sold in the coming future. Old cars and the hobby won’t be safe because they use gas will be deemed a hazard to drive and pollute.
But maybe if they are painted green?????

Does the supposed inspector know that the majority of Model T’s have a wood body structure that’s covered over by sheet metal?? Are they safe????u

So if you haul a licensed old car that has a wooden body structure that just been restored to a state that says it’s unsafe to drive because of the wood that’s in it? are you breaking their law??? Think about it.

[Norman Kling]

Actually, your wood is new and much stronger than most of the older pre-1926 T's which were a sheet metal skin tacked onto a wood skeleton. I have seen many of those older T's with termite droppings under them and the doors don't fit right because the wood is sagging.
Some people of "authority" don't really know what they are doing.
Norm

[kmatt2]

By that officer’s department logic then all fiberglass bodied vehicles are also unsafe, get ready all Corvette owners they are coming for you next. There must be a process to take this officer’s ruling up the chain of command. On the rejection is there a certain ruling or vehicle code law cited, start by checking that.

[mtntee20]

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions.

My impression on this leans heavily towards the Inspector. It appears HE is the one who deems legal and not legal. While the statutes are considered, I believe there is MORE weight in his "opinion".

So, there seem to be three ways to proceed. First, find a way to placate/convince the inspector. Second, get a lawyer and pursue the statutes. Three, give up and stop banging my head against a wall.

FJ's comments make a guy wonder: Is he being sarcastic or expressing his true feelings? So, if the comments are true feelings and if I take the third option, I would always have him to haul my vehicles for me as long as I paid for it.

My general direction will be to find out exactly what the inspector needs to be happy. Contacting Model T experts, old car experts, museum curators, and club officials may be enough. We'll see if I can get the inspector to give me more information. Meanwhile, ensure the glass is correct and add a second brake/tail light (not required on a '27). Those were the only two specific items cited other than the wood body.

I'm definitely safety minded but there is an extremely fine line between Safe and Stupid.

[Chad_Marcheese]

Safety glass is easy to check for. Hold a lighter or barbecue lighter up to the glass, if you see a dual image, it's safety glass. That tip was given to me 17 years ago when I bought my car and joined the forum.

[John Codman]

The very first thing I would do is research the Colorado motor vehicle statutes, especially those that pertain to antique, collector class, street rod, etc. vehicles and see if there is any prohibition on registering wood-bodied vehicles and operating them on public roads. That should trump the opinion of the state patrol.

Frankly, if wood-bodied antique automobiles cannot be registered or operated on Colorado roads, then, theoretically, a number of currently registered brass-era antique automobiles in your state are operating illegally and should should have their registrations revoked. Frankly, I doubt that would ever happen because I doubt your state laws prohibit wood-bodied vehicles. (Then there are cars that have sheet metal over wood-frame bodies. That would wipe out a majority of antique cars into the early 1930s.)

Most if not all states have exemptions for antique automobiles stating that modern standards do not apply. For example, if the antique car did not come from the factory equipped with brake lights, the vehicle is not required to have brake lights in order to be registered and operated on the road. Because your vehicle is period correct, I would think the fact that it has a wooden body and would be neither here nor there.

Here in Minnesota, we are fortunate to have simple, common sense and liberal laws pertaining to "collector class" vehicles and a strong and highly influential collector vehicle lobby, primarily the Minnesota Street Rod Association so we don't have to deal with issues such as yours.

Most truck bodies are sheet metal over wood.
The state most definitely can require something that wasn't installed at the factory. Using you're example - My Model T did not come with a brake light. Massachusetts requires a brake light on all registered vehicles. Period. My T has a brake light.
I find it interesting that they are OK with wooden wheels, but not a wooden body.

[TRDxB2]

Ask the DMV why they have Titled any MORGAN Motor Car's, they were and still are wood framed and aluminum skinned
Video of a Morgan Build https://www.autoweek.com/car-life/class ... from-wood/
There are several Morgan Dealers in Colorado hers one in Denver https://fblod.com/showroom/current-range/morgan/
Imagine if the Morgan Dealer's in Colorado found out that you were going to take the issue to court, I'm sure they would help you get a variance

[Mark Nunn]

My travel trailer has aluminum over a wood frame. Am I banned from Colorado?

[TRDxB2]

You may have a legal right to register the car. It appears that there is a provision for a Horseless Carriage Registration in Colorado. So that is the "law" then there must be a way to Title it
The fact that the Colorado State Patrol does not believe a wood bodied vehicle is safe to drive on the road is a feeling not the law.
Now you do have a problem in that the body is not a true Ford so you'll need to get some old photographs to meet the requirements...
The above vehicle meets the following requirements:
● Was manufactured at least fifty (50) years before the present year.
● Valued principally because of the vehicle’s early date of manufacture, design, historical interest or value as a
collector item Not sure what yourIn the end you may need a lawyer
https://dmv.colorado.gov/sites/dmv/file ... 5_2021.pdf

[tdump]

"The Colorado State Patrol does not believe a wood bodied vehicle is safe to drive on the road."
there is the key to this whole thing,a belief, no reference to a law was given. I would pursue this much further. Not so sure I wouldn't contact a attorney for a hourly consultation to get some ideas.
This is beyond ridicules.

[FreighTer Jim]

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions.

FJ's comments make a guy wonder: Is he being sarcastic or expressing his true feelings? So, if the comments are true feelings and if I take the third option, I would always have him to haul my vehicles for me as long as I paid for it.

You re-bodied the car.

Unless the vehicle was originally built
as a 1927 Model T Delivery Vehicle with
a documented history of being titled
and registered as a delivery bodied vehicle …

You created a new vehicle by marrying
a three year old body to a 1927 chassis.

Apparently by doing that - in Colorado - you lost the
“ Grandfather Exemption “.

Essentially you created a new vehicle.
That vehicle is subject to inspection
under current Colorado law.

Model T’s that are maintained as required
to keep them roadworthy without
major modification(s) generally don’t
have issues in title transfer & registration.

I have personally transported over (500)
Model T vehicles as of September 1st
of this year of every configuration.

FJ

[mtntee20]

Freighter Jim,

I DID NOT BUILD THIS TRUCK. Maybe you should ask before you accuse.

AND, there is NO Grandfather exemption.

[FreighTer Jim]

Freighter Jim,

I DID NOT BUILD THIS TRUCK. Maybe you should ask before you accuse.

AND, there is NO Grandfather exemption.

If you didn’t put the three year old body on …
Who did ?

Did you buy this as is ?
Did it come with a title and/or registration ?
If so - what was the body style listed as ?

You didn’t include the vehicle ownership history
on your first post - you stated you were offered
a “ rebuilder’s approval “.

I assumed you did the wood body installation
or paid to have it done.


FJ

[Scott_Conger]

Guy #1 has registration woes and asks for advice

Guy #2 guy pees on his shoes and then demands that Guy #1 answer his questions in order to aim a straighter stream

Why would guy #1 ever return to this site looking for help?

[Novice]

I would follow Scotts advice. Go visit the Colo auto museum and see how they do it. ask other model t folks how they did it. Sounds like you got a trooper with a attitude. Solution find one that has no problem with model Ts with wood frames. (If Papa says no! Ask Momma) A title service is another option. But can be pricy. I used one in Texas. They arranged everything including a Teleconference virtual vehicle inspection using my cell phone camera to take photos of the Depot Hack and Motor number. very smooth. Pretty fast. Not Cheap. Good Luck.

[John kuehn]

For some folks logic its any T that has a wood body such as a depot hack, cut off touring with a wooden after market bed, a roadster that has an after market bed that has been re-bodied. or re-bodied in someway. Ford sold a running chassis with out a body for consumers to add to or build to fit their needs and some were mostly wood bodies.
In the officers logic? any of those cars wouldn’t be considered to be safe on the road if they were newly restored or not. Something amiss here.

[Professor Fate]

Title and register the car out of state. Then convert it to Calirado.
This will only work if you don't have to go before the state police to get it converted over to CO.
I know here there are lots of guys that run old cars sans inspection sticker. Nobody ever gets bothered.
The DMV will pick up an uninspected car from time to time and send a nasty letter out to have it inspected or face registration revocation. Then just take rhe car off the road and reregister it to reset the clock. This is the "Great Reset."
***Learn the rules, and use them back against them.***

[tdump]

When the Dmv inspector here in NC did my pickup,I showed him the plans I bought from Wagon works for the body.
And I was a bit to honest about it having different year wheels and rear end but I still,got a legal title. NOTHING was said about the wood body,A open body,no roof,no sides on the seat, no ---- .
Nothing was said. Others title vehicles and transfer vehicles all over the country. This guy failed you over a "BELIEF" not a law. As for a 3 year old body on a 100 year old car, had the owner brought a clean title to a unrestored car to the dmv for transfer,it would have been transferred after a inspection of the vin and all would be well. That is what makes no sense.

[George Mills]

I'd listen to Scott as that sounds most reasonable...

Then I'd take the trailer with car to the most remote out of the way location you can get to within a reasonable drive.

My story...different state. I go to title and register my Hack on completion, State DMV girl says 'This body looks new' and I made the mistake of replying 'Yes'. She then offered a salvage title which I said 'No' to and after pleading left. Fortunately, I lived in NJ and it is also illegal to sit on an open title. So I went back, asked for the supervisor, reminded him I didn't want to be illegal and he managed to do a title swap but still refused to issue a registration. Game on! Waited a week, got her nice and dirty and crappy sky background photo (NJ only requires 2 photos for reg) and bada bing, went out with registration and plates.

Adult son says, 'you know better than that' but I didn't and shortly after he picked up an early 70's F-150 with an F-600 rear for towing trailers---we called it The Rainbow Truck as every part obviously started on a different vehicle, probably every part started on another vehicle. I reminded him not go to the station I did...and he reminded me, old man is stupid. He calls me up one morning says, 'wanna go for a ride?' and we head off to farm country and a town where the sales tax is 1/2 due to being impoverished economic zone. Walk up to the DMV window, lays down his form and the pictures...2 minutes later we are done and in the car! He grins, "see Dad, ya gotta go where this kind of crap happens100 times a day and they just push papers!'

Sorry, but post like this remind me of that lesson...and I get a chuckle every time I think about it. Here now in FL they accept any LEO and I have a county sheriff down the street. Real quick inspections....

Like Scott said, check it out with the locals at a museum...it might be just as simple as them calling cousin Charlie the cop and having you stop over.

[TRDxB2]

The following is what the Horseless Carriage says is need to qualify
The fact that the Colorado State Patrol does not believe a wood bodied vehicle is safe to drive on the road is a feeling not the law.
Now you do have a problem in that the body is not a true Ford so you'll need to get some old photographs to meet the requirements...
The above vehicle meets the following requirements:
● Was manufactured at least fifty (50) years before the present year.
● Valued principally because of the vehicle’s early date of manufacture (Mifflinburg Body on Model T chassis), design, historical interest or value as a
collector item
So here is a lookalike to your "Maternal Great Grandfathers" Dairy Truck that you restored. The Graphics were changed to be more aesthetic There should be no question that the vehicle’s early date of manufacture design provides great historical interest.
Your vehicle may not be as it came of the assembly line but it is totally period correct and that is what Model T restoration should be about - what people owned and did with a Model T not just not prep them for a judging.

[Professor Fate]

I had a friend complete a six year build. Took him 3 tries at the DMV to get it thru to use his year of manufacture plate. When the DMV robot said "no" he walked and tried another DMV. Never pass your plate across the counter. Best scenario is use your insurance agent and a color photo copy of your plate.
The moral of the story....The pointed headed rubes at the DMV usally don't know diddly.
He had good paperwork to get it registered without any state patrol involvement.
I had a factory five Shelby cobra kit car 20 yrs ago. I got jammed up because it was titled by the original owner as a 1965. They ordered me to surrender it for inspection at the state police shack at the local highway department yard.
They took my title and reissued a 1998 title. Total crap then and today. If I failed to bring car in, they were going to cancel all my vehicles and make my license non renewable.
That's why when we move south, were going to a place with the least nonsense, hopefully it exisits...

[DHort]

I wonder what they would say about all the wood bodied speedsters out there?

[TXGOAT2]

Many very expensive full classics have been re-bodied at one time or another, and most pre-war cars have a fairly high wood content. Ford and GM station wagons were wood-bodied up through 1948. In the case of restorations, who knows what is new material and what is "original"? Ford bought bodies from outside makers for many years, and some Plymouth cars as late as 1942 had Budd bodies.

[Petrah Phyre]

I wonder what they would say about all the wood bodied speedsters out there?

Shhh. Still haven't titled mine.

[Will_Vanderburg]

There is nothing in CO dmv law that says you can’t drive it.

[Burger in Spokane]

I would follow Scott's advice and go pee on the inspectors shoes !

[Mark Nunn]

When you were denied, did you ask the inspector how many years he or she has been an automotive engineer? What are their qualifications to make that judgment?

[Allan]

This sort of rubbish seems to be universal. When I went to get an ID check prior to registering my 1927 US imported LHD T Tudor I took a copy of the shippers manifest with all its details. The inspection went OK but the inspector wanted the original import manifest. When I pointed out that there were four other vehicles on the manifest, and we couldn't all have the original, he backed down and said I would have to have the shipper fax them a copy directly. Fortunately, he was at his interstate premises when I phoned, and by the time i had loaded the car on the trailer, the inspector came out with his faxed copy. He didn't appreciate being told it was exactly the same as the one I had shown him!
Have you ever noticed that services like these often have notices up warning that threats and abuse will be reported and police will be called. I wonder what might provoke such a response from those who seek the services of these officials?

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

"When you were denied, did you ask the inspector how many years he or she has been an automotive engineer? What are their qualifications to make that judgment?"

Such behavior might very well get you arrested, your home and personal effects "searched", your family harassed, and your dog impounded.

[TXGOAT2]

Vote the jerks out of public office.

[Loftfield]

Despite all the flip responses, mine included above, there is a clear message here. There are too many folks out there who want everything, and everybody, to fit a common, standard mold. Many of these folks are not happy when people are having fun enjoying a hobby that they don't understand or appreciate. Places where the populace has elected legislators that purport to outlaw gasoline vehicles by some arbitrary date fall into that category. When gasoline cars are outlawed our hobby will essentially die because the economics of no gasoline cars will result in no gasoline (electrify your Model T now?). The critical issue has been skirted around in a few comments above, but it needs to be spelled out clearly: ALL THE VARIOUS BRANCHES OF THE ANTIQUE CAR HOBBY NEED TO ORGANIZE NOW, NOW, NOW, TO STEP UP EFFECTIVE LOBBYING FOR OUR INTERESTS. No person, no matter how hungry, will consume a cluster of grapes in one go, but the same end can be be effected even when fully sated by plucking them one by one. United we stand, divided we just disappear. I have no idea how to get disparate clubs and groups to work together, I just know it needs to happen.

[John kuehn]

Absolutely.
Who you vote for makes a difference. The lack of public interest of what’s going on under our noses comes from apathy and denial.
It’s later than we think and the old car hobby is just one of the things that will be affected if the “great reset “ takes more of a foot hold.

[TXGOAT2]

Tyranny and cancer have a lot in common. In the USA, tyranny is a lot easier to treat, if We The People will only do it. (No one else will)

[mtntee20]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your support, comments, and suggestions. I WILL post further information on the progress and results.

I made the original post mostly as a Warning of the direction things appear to be progressing towards and NOT as a "I need help" subject. BUT, I sincerely appreciate all of your input towards getting this truck legal. I will use your suggestions as necessary and post updates, although it may NOT be until next year due to the path needing to be taken.

THANK YOU!

[Dallas Landers]

Try a different DMV branch. My county branch said there was no way to get a title for my truck. I had all required state forms filled out and in hand. VIN check done by police.

I took the exact paperwork to the next county DMV later the same day and was waiting on my new title in 20 minutes. It came in the mail in less than two weeks.

[Professor Fate]

GraciousMinorHornedtoad-max-1mb.gif (778.79 KiB) Viewed 14746 times

Check this out. The Blue people have finally done it....

New for Taxachusetts:
Motor Vehicle Inspection Stickers
Starting November 1, vehicles passing inspection will get a new sticker with the month the last sticker expired, valid for one year. Starting October 1, vehicle owners will no longer receive a printed inspection report when a vehicle passes inspection.
(That means if you've been driving without a valid insp. sticker, you pay for the retro time gap you drove without a valid insp. sticker, and the new sticker you're getting expires as if you got a sticker on time last time.)
Didn't tea go into Boston harbor for stuff like this? "

Full link here:
https://www.mass.gov/news/new-motor-veh ... stickers-0

[DanTreace]

Just titled my '12 Project T here in FL today. We are great state, that treats old car folks with understanding, and we have sensible and effective laws too.

Process was easy, armed with needed docs. FL requires for the Application, a bill of sale, and a title or a current registration. Got my T frame and parts from a GA resident, who obtained a registration (license plate) for the 1912. GA isn't a title state.

Presented to the DMV clerk in my small town, and she did look up in a binder of states, that in 1912 GA did not issued titles. So that was satisfied.
Now the GA registration was expired in April, as I got the T last year, but she said that is still 'current'. There was no vehicle weight in their computer system, she called someone, I had stated 1200lbs. She didn't get her answer as the other person on the line didn't know either! I showed on my iPhone the Club's encyclopedia page on 1912 summary, a touring at $690 and weight of 1200, told her this is official Ford info.....worked....she typed in 1200.

The motor number or VIN, (a 1919 engine) I had previously filled in to the Application with a Notary to attest to the VIN...the clerk accepted that, as normally they have to personally inspect the VIN, but since the project isn't running, that was OK....she did ask if I had a picture, and sure enough I had brought this printed view of current status, telling her the body is off being restored....she smiled . They like their job, then asked if I show it or drive it on parades..... fun.

Then I signed the Application, checking the box I would not drive the T on the road until I got a tag, (you get the Horseless Carriage tag, 1945 and earlier cars, one time fee) by mailing your title copy, proof of insurance, and a check to Tallahassee.

Paid the sales tax from the amount on the bill of sale, and the title fee that was $107, plus $8 agency fee to have printed title on the spot.

FL simple and friendly in just 15 minutes!

[TXGOAT2]

I had no issues registering a running, out-of-state T in Texas. They took the out-of-state title and issued me a title in my name and handed me a pair of plates. Other than sales tax, fees were minimal. I had to get a regular state safety inspection which was no problem.

[Professor Fate]

Who wants to move to Massachusetts?

[Ed Fuller]

An easy way would be to register it in the state of Vermont. They allow vehicles to be registered by non residents.

https://dmv.vermont.gov/faq/do-i-have-t ... in-vermont

[Duey_C]

Wishing the best. Beautiful milk truck!
Jim, I am just astounded you said that.

[FreighTer Jim]

Many years ago I bought this truck
in Wheat Ridge, Colorado .

It had a current valid Colorado title.

I kept it in storage there for a few months
until I could schedule transport into the
Denver area so I could pick it up.

At that time I was hauling with an open trailer.

I had a friend who lived in
the Denver area who was interested in
buying it and putting it back on the road
so we went down to the local DMV
office to transfer the title to him.

They wouldn’t do it.

The body style was listed as “ truck “
on the current valid Colorado title and
Colorado DMV said they considered
it a “ motorhome “ even though it
was not self contained.

I didn’t argue with them.
I trailered it home and got an Ohio title.
For a truck.


FJ

[TXGOAT2]

It's a Dodge truck. Any damned fool can see that it is a truck. (Except for "woke" damned fools who can't tell a woman from a man)

[jeffstag]

Voting matters.

[John kuehn]

No kidding folks, who you vote for really does matter. The next time around is really important. And especially important is that we still can.

[130nav]

I'd ask the museum who does their inspections, and just drive it anyways until its sorted out. In my guard unit we have multiple state troopers and local cops from departments all around the state. Even the ones that I'm confident would give their own mother a ticket for 5 over would probably not even bother to pull over a model T and ticket you.

[D Stroud]

This may or may not apply here or even be relevant, but there are MANY farm type trucks, among many other types, that are equipped with wood bodied grain/livestock beds all over these United States, they have been made that way for many, many years, at least 100+ that I know of. I wonder how those could be licensed if a wood bodied T couldn't. As said, I'm thinking that problem was just caused by a misinformed/power trip hungry official. Not the first time that has happened anywhere. Dave

[mtntee20]

Gentlemen and Gentlewomen,

I am happy to announce, I have found a way to remedy the State Patrol Inspection process.

In doing some research, I learned things I really didn't want to know. When any one of us purchases a NEW vehicle, the vehicle is delivered with an MCO (Manufacturers Certificate of Origin). Why does the dealership NOT give that MCO to the buyer? The buyer gets a title and temporary license tag. Actually, the dealership does give the MCO to the new owner: THE GOVERNMENT. The State OWNS your vehicle. That's why you have to pay license (tax) on it every year. IF you pay the "tax" the State lets you drive it for another year. In Colorado, the old guys will remember, all the vehicles required an annual "safety" inspection. The State wants to make sure YOU are taking good care of THEIR vehicle. Now, it's emissions testing.

The entity holding the MCO OWNS the vehicle. SO, why do we NOT OWN/GET an MCO. Then we OWN the vehicle we paid for. I DO now.

There is a company that provides MCOs for your vehicles. There are some requirements: Paid Off/No Liens, never reported lost or stolen. It's nice to know the original selling Dealership but not required. I now own my 1920 TT and the 1927 T Delivery. It's my choice to title and license them OR NOT.

If you're interested: SuperiorMCO.World I contacted them specifically about the 1927. Not knowing the original dealership was NOT a problem nor was never having an MCO to begin with. TWO weeks from the time the check was written, to the MCOs in my HAND was all it took. This company goes directly to a THIRD party for MCOs. This third party works with all manufacturers on MCOs. I learned, if a person or corporation needs/wants to export a vehicle, an MCO is REQUIRED. Thus this party is authorized to produce MCOs, not only for export but for any vehicle as needed or requested, even if there never was an MCO to begin with.

Now, there is no inspection required, and my choice to title/license or not. The entity holding the SUPERIOR Title to your vehicle OR Home/Property IS the rightful owner. That is why NONE of us actually OWN our homes or properties. We have a Deed of Trust or a Warranty Deed but we do NOT own the property. As long as we pay the property taxes each year, the State allows us to stay and believe we own it. IF you have a Land Patent, then you DO OWN your home/property. Including all the water and mineral rights. Without the Land Patent, the State owns the water and mineral rights and can kick you out of your home/off of your property any time they feel like it: Eminent Domain. Sound familiar. The State can not do that if you own the Land Patent.

Thank you all for your suggestions. I had an Automotive Engineer volunteer to do an inspection (ZOOM call) and write the letter. I wanted to wait until spring time to get the delivery out to drive and do the ZOOM in decent weather and sun. Now there is no need.

Being a part of this GREAT community, and having had so many assist me in many ways with my Ts and TTs, I felt a great need to do some "Pay Back". I hope you all feel this is a little bit of the dues I owe.

Thank You All,
Terry

[tdump]

I am glad you got some satisfaction.
I remember very well my grandfather getting into a argument with a county commissioner 1 night and the fellow told him he didn't own the land,they let him use it because he paid his taxes.
I would really like to understand how Americans got something that profound pulled over their eyes.

[Scott_Conger]

Terry

glad you got it sorted out...thanks for the update. It sounds as though you have set yourself up as the Manufacturer of your vehicle, meaning you created it out of whole cloth and it is brand new. Not the path I'd have taken, but I do get that you were frustrated in all other attempts to get title to the thing. I'm glad for you that the ordeal is behind you. As an aside, the belief that the MCO goes to the government is entirely faulty (it goes to the leinholder if financed), but after titling, that MCO is long gone, but that is not the topic of your discussion and so will leave it at that. This growing idea that the government owns everything and we are renting it via taxes is a 100% 21st Century idea and a dangerous one, at that.

If anyone ever has the bad luck to buy raw land and later the EPA discovers pollution on it that needs remediation, try telling them to contact the "government" to pay for it since you don't own the land. Good luck with that one. If you ever wonder who owns the land, that little issue will clear up any fuzzy thinking.

Mack

how did we get here? It is because soon after our nation's founding, as states began to levy property taxes, the public turned out one election day and forgot the lessons of their fathers, and showed up with ballots instead of bullets.

as far as not owning land or private property, that is a very new interpretation of law which is gaining ground through organizations such as Context.org, who are the purveyors of sustainability and global governance, where the individual is anointed or not by their benevolent despots.

FWIW - the commissioner your grandfather encountered was simply a visionary hack

[TXGOAT2]

The MCO simply establishes provenance, that is, where the vehicle or trailer originated. In the case of new vehicles not yet titled, the MCO is the first link in the official chain of registered ownership:
(1)The manufacturer
(2) The dealer, or importer, or wholesaler, etc,
(3) either the purchaser or the purchaser's lienholder.
(4) Subsequent owners, leinholders, etc.

I bought a new trailer and received an MCO listed the manufacturer and which showed the dealer I purchased it from as puirchaser from the manufacturer.

I took the MCO to the county courthouse and applied for and received a title in my name.

The state never owned the trailer.

I sold the trailer and surrendered the title, as seller, to the new owner, who was not the state. He now owns the trailer, and will obtain a title in his name or that of his company.


Sales and use taxes, if any, are due on most any item purchased.
Taxes and fees related to license plates, inspections, etc are not due unless you use the vehicle on the public roadways. Such fees go primarily to financing the public roadways and related appurtenances, such as state police, record keeping, etc.

I considered the $5.30 a year license fee to operate the trailer at will on any public roadway to be a bargain.

[mtntee20]

Hi Scott,

The MCOs I have are from the manufacturer: Ford Motor Company on 2, General Motors LLC on 2, and P J Trailers Manufacturing Inc on 1. Holding the MCO means the holder OWNS the vehicle and is not a builder or manufacturer.

I do not know how other states run their motor vehicle departments. In Colorado, Liens are on the Title for vehicles and on the Deeds for land. ANY MCOs and/or Land Patents go to the government. That's how the government grants leases for minerals/oil/gas on lands that are deeded to other people. If those people held the Land Patent for their land, the drillers/explorers would have to deal with the landowner.

If we remember the regulations on missing persons. Those people are declared dead after 7 years. The government keeps the MCOs for 7 years and then destroys them. Thus, the government has eternal ownership of the vehicle no matter who actually has custody of said vehicle. Here's another pearl: Did you know, there is a process everyone of us is able to use, that a person is able to UNREGISTER their vehicle. I see some problems with that, like becoming a Police magnet.

This is all a small part of reclaiming the rights guaranteed by the founding fathers. For nearly 250 years, the public has been lied to for money and power. It's gone on so long, we all think this is the way it has always been and should be.

Thank you all for your comments

[Scott_Conger]

Well then, I sure wish the gov't would paint the old jeep I'm driving. It really needs it.

[TRDxB2]

These cars have wood frames & I bet the Colorado DMV & State Police would let it be titled since they didn't realize that & assumed that it was just a facade
also the Colorado Statue clearly allow any vehicle prior to 1975 to be titled. as a Horseless carriage. The Colorado State Patrol may have an opinion about safety but they must follow the rules of law in their state, they didn't have the right to deny you based on their "opinion" of a wood frame construction & thus violated the law. If your up to it I would have the statute in hand and would ask them to point out where it says that wood bodies can't be titled & if they deny you ask them to sign a document stating the reason for denial, badge number & take a photo of them and say its for your lawyer

https://dmv.colorado.gov/sites/dmv/file ... 5_2021.pdf
https://casetext.com/statute/colorado-r ... ages-rules
A person may drive a motor vehicle with the special registration plates authorized by this section or section 42-12-302 on the streets and highways, but only:
(a) To and from assemblies, conventions, or other meetings where such vehicles and their ownership are the primary interest;
(b) On special occasions, for demonstrations and parades;
(c) On occasions when the operation of the vehicle on the streets and highways will not constitute a traffic hazard; and
(d) To, from, and during local, state, or national tours held primarily for the exhibition and enjoyment of such vehicles.

[Susanne]

I wonder if you could go to a different State Police office, have someone familiar with horseless carriages do your inspection. While I don't like to do this in general, there is also the (in this case, appropriate) step of speaking to the inspectors supervisor, showing them the construction of the vehicle as solid, as an historic vehicle, and asking why they're making an unduly harsh exceptopn to YOUR car, when there are others like this on the road? Have said supervisor explain exactly why your solidly built body which is made of new wood and to current engineering standards surpassing that of the origianl YOM bodies is somehow unsafe or unusable...

Out in California, you get a CHP officer to do your safety inspection. If you get one who is a total boff, and wants to make you miserable, you go to a different office and get an inspection. People who built custom motorcycles back in the day also knew which offices to go to, and which to avoid. Just saying...

I'm wondering (spitballing here) if you have an antique vehicle - with a wood body &/or chassis (I'm thinking Franklins and Brushes here, tho there are others) and you live in Colorado, they will make you destroy your classic car, or ??? This is kind of reminiscent (back when I was a brat!) of when California tried to make cars registered with antique/HC plates could not be on the roads...

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Professor Fate has the best point here. In N.J. You’ve actually got to find the DMV in your area that handles antique vehicles. Out of I believe 4 in my general area only one handles classic car plates and if, as I did initially, go to the wrong one you go through hell. To give you an idea how ‘effed up it is the guy who directs you to the correct line told me about this and what DMV to go to. Nobody else in the first place knew. When I found the right place and the right guy it was a breeze.

[mtntee20]

In Colorado, the inspection MUST be made by a Peace Officer or person equally trained and approved. This is directly from the Colorado Peace Officer's Handbook. References list the types of places for equally trained and approved persons. NOW, the problem, Colorado DMV accepts ONLY Peace Officer inspections. Definition of Peace Officer : State Patrol. DMV is wrong, By the Book. DMV is forcing people to pay $50 to the State Patrol to increase the State Patrol's income.
If a person wanted to take it to a higher power, it might be good to take it to a judge. Not very confidant in that as the judge works for the State as well.

[Gen3AntiqueAuto]

Get your denial in writing if you have not already
Options:
1. use the car without a plate (with insurance) and if stopped "I am traveling under my constitutional rights, driving is defined as an occupation, I am not being paid" if you're brave.
2. Register it in another state.
3. Hire a lawyer and sue the state for violating your rights and personal persecution. There are many other wood bodied cars out there on the road.

[Been Here Before]

Not knowing all the details, but a search of the internet brought up a listing from that friend of old car lovers Hagerty...

https://www.hagerty.com/media/archived/ ... our-state/

Colorado is like most other states in that it offers a Historic vehicle tag with a few minor restrictions. There are two important things to keep in mind in the Centennial State, however.

First, Colorado has a graduated emissions-testing program for cars in nine counties in populated areas. Vehicles older than 1975 registered as collector cars are exempt from emissions testing. Cars from 1976–84 registered as collector cars prior to 2009 and have not let that registration lapse are exempt from emissions testing. Cars 32 years old that were not registered prior to 2009 must have an initial emissions inspection, then be re-inspected every five years, and must not drive more than 4500 miles per year. Emissions inspections are at government-run facilities. “Wait times are posted online and there’s one about 5 minutes from my house,” Andrew Ganz tells us. “I’ve never waited more than 10 minutes, though it’s ironic that you sit idling outside the facility.”

The second thing unique to Colorado is its titling requirements. If your older car doesn’t have a title, you can still register it with a surety bond, as in many other states. However, if your vehicle is NOT roadworthy, older than 25 years of age, and physically located in Colorado, you can get what’s called a “Rebuilder’s Title” to keep with the car as it is restored. Once it’s again in roadworthy shape, you can use that Rebuilders Title as the basis to get a standard Colorado title. That’s a unique win for restorers in Colorado.

Unfortunately, Colorado ranks 30th in commute time and 29th in road quality, according to U.S. News & World Report.

[John Codman]

I presume that all enclosed standard 53' semi-trailer boxes are also banned from Colorado roads. They are sheet Aluminum over wood.

[J1MGOLDEN]

This state must not have any Amish communities.

[mtntee20]

Jim, No Amish to speak of. Wish there were a bunch here though.

[micshotrodgarage]

Hi all; and thanks for all the suggestions and comments,I am absorbing all of this" I too live in as stated Colorado, "or better put calirado" and have several Ts I need to get papered. Ugg! doesn't sound good, My possible saving grace might be I don't live on the eastern slope, Denver metro side of the state. I'm on the ignored side western slope; Delta county. I know several carguys who have gone through the Colorado title process with all the headaches and long waiting times and in some unfortunate cases lost paper work. as I have herd No matter where you live in the state and have the car inspected for a lost title the paper work is sent and processed in one state location for approval or denial. I'm not looking forward to this and may try the out of state title ideas. Please wish us caliradoians LUCK!! Mike

[mtntee20]

Mike,

Living on the Western Slope, I hope you have better luck with the VIN inspection. My VIN inspection turned out to be a Safety inspection. Once you get the VIN, I think you will be OK. I haven't had any trouble at all with the paperwork. Maybe it's just the office we use.

Good Luck,
Terry

[Michael Peternell]

This may well be the shape of things to come.

The Colorado DMV required a VIN inspection on our Milk Truck. Appointments are required and are filled for a minimum of 6-8 weeks in advance. Yesterday I took our '27 Milk Truck Delivery for inspection yesterday.
1927 Delivery Truck.jpg
I was denied/failed inspection based on ONE thing: WOOD BODY. The Colorado State Patrol does not believe a wood bodied vehicle is safe to drive on the road. Thus, a wood bodied vehicle is NOT Road Worthy. This is a Currier Horseless Carriage body approximately 3 years old.

I was offered a "Rebuilder's approval". This allows a person to obtain a title but NOT any type of license plate. The vehicle would have to be hauled to any/every event and could NOT be driven on the road, even in a parade. In order to obtain a full VIN/Road Worthy inspection, we will have to find an Automotive Engineer who will certify the vehicle for Road Worthiness. I'm sure ALL of us here, have a direct line to an Automotive Engineer for such a certification. All of this to get a Collector Series plate that limits driving on road to 4500 miles per year.

I am unsure if the windshield is safety glass or not. This will be addressed by a competent Glass company and replaced if necessary, All the lights work. The tires are good, and the truck is in very good to excellent condition and has Rocky Mountain Brakes to boot. The body is properly assembled, mounted, and tight.

Anyone know of an Automotive Engineer in the Denver, Colorado area?

Looks like NO license until at least next year.

Is this how the government is going to push us OFF the roads?

Welcome to the world of overachiever's! Somewhere in this person's training this was mentioned. Most likely the only thing they remember from that class. I'd ask if they want to really look stupid if you show them the other few thousand !wood bodied cars in your state that got inspections.
Make sure you talk to the inspectors boss before hand. Problem will go away!

[A Whiteman]

The MCO story is interesting.
Under the logic presented, no one in the States who does not have an 'MCO' can ever sell the vehicle in their possession as they do not own it ...?
With an MCO you don't have to comply with State laws about registration and inspection of a vehicle..?
A 'third party' company can give you the MCO in exchange for a check ...?

I smell something not quite logical in this presentation. Someone somewhere is 'pulling the wool' over your eyes on this.

[mtntee20]

Adrian,
Since the MCO is held by the government for 7 years before destroying it, the Government is the OWNER with us mere mortals believing WE own the vehicle. The government allows us to do what we want with the vehicle to promote the idea of ownership. The government doesn't care, they are still getting money from every sale/transfer in title fees, registration fees, license plates and all.

You are correct in your second statement. The downside: With NO license plate, you are a cop target. You had better be able to stand and prove your position either to the cop or to the court.

The MCO company is totally legit. Whenever any vehicle is exported, for whatever reason, the vehicle must have an MCO. I have been told this is due to the new owner NOT being a U.S. Citizen and needing the MCO to properly license the vehicle in their country and to prove the vehicle is not stolen. I understand this MCO company's main business is Export MCOs.

Keep in mind, with the MCO, I CHOOSE to license or NOT. I haven't made the decision yet. I may just put YOM plates on it and let it go at that. It's already insured through Hagerty, so I'm covered there.

[TXGOAT2]

The manufacturer issues the MCO. I assume it is an official form. When the newly-manufactured vehicle is sold TO ANYONE, the MCO goes to the buyer, who is usually a dealer or distributor. Most retail buyers buy from a dealer and register their vehicle for operation on public roadways, and obtain license plates, pay taxes and fees, and are issued a certificate of TITLE, that is, a certificate of OWNERSHIP, which may or may not be encumbered with LIENS. The state never owns the vehicle, and the MCO is moot once the vehicle passes out of the manufacturer's possession. I suppose if you built a vehicle from the ground up, you could obtain an MCO, and I suppose you'd get one if you bought a new vehicle at the factory door. I have bought and sold a great many vehicles, most of them not new. I have bought from individuals, junkyards, trusts, and licensed used and new car dealers. Buyers pay sales taxes, not sellers. In Texas, you can own a vehicle for decades without paying a cent in taxes on it. BUT, if you want to operate it on public roadways legally, you will pay certain road & bridge taxes and you will display license plates and you will conform to certain safety regulations regarding equipment and condition of the vehicle and regarding how you operate it. You can sell your vehicle without reporting to anyone, assuming it titled to you, and is free of leins. The buyer will be expected to pay sales taxes, the same as on most any other purchase, be it an automobile, a toilet seat, a fright wig, or a gallon of paint.

[TXGOAT2]

PS: The SELLER, (owner) gets the proceeds from a vehicle sale, not the state.

I have a vehicle that was once the property of the State of Texas. A new vehicle dealer in Waco sold it to the Texas Forest Service. The TFS owned it for several years and then auctioned it to a volunteer fire department, which sold or traded it to yet another volunteer fire department.
It was sold new in December, 1980, being a 1981 model. It was never titled to a private owner until 2010. I bought it from that private owner in 2013 and have owned it ever since. If I ever sell it, the buyer will pay ME, not the state.

State owned and many city owned and police and fire vehicles in Texas carry an "Exempt" license plate.

[TXGOAT2]

Didn't Benjamin Franklin lobby for a library tax?
Didn't George Washington put down the "Whiskey Rebellion"?

Didn't the founding documents contain the phrase "Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes" (NOT income taxes until 1913)

[mtntee20]

Pat,

Living in Texas, you might know. I understand Oklahoma vehicle dealers GIVE the MCO to the BUYER when a vehicle is sold. Why would they do that if the MCO was NOT the superior title, meaning, the person holding the MCO OWNS the vehicle? I understand the MCO goes to the entity with rightful ownership. Thus, the lender (Bank, Credit Union, whomever is providing the financing in Oklahoma) holds the MCO until the loan is paid off then it is given to the owner. Being as I don't live in Oklahoma, I can not say this is the truth. If and When I decide to buy a new truck, I'm going to check out dealerships in Oklahoma and see if this is true or not. I know in Colorado I have never seen an MCO until this month.

Think about this: IF the government did not have ownership, why would they have the power to take your vehicle away from you if you didn't pay taxes and license that vehicle even if it was broken down and parked on your property? They could not take it away if it truly belonged to you, could they?

Pat, thank you for a good conversation. It's good when people can converse civilly and exchange ideas. I found this hard to believe until I saw it in action. Being 70, I've had the lies pushed into my head for a long time. It's hard to break away from the old thinking. I completely respect your thoughts, opinions, and position.

Good Luck to All

[A Whiteman]

'Manufacturers Certificate of Origin'.

Not, I notice, a 'certificate of title or ownership' just 'origin'.

You are correct, we do need proof of origin when importing a car to prove it isn't stolen mainly, and does not come from a country on the list of any sanctions or embargos.

Registration. licence fees - just another form of tax, like income tax, county tax, sales tax, ........ nothing new here.

[TXGOAT2]

The MCO is exactly what it says it is: no more, no less.

Johnny Cash would have had issues registering his Psychobilly Cadillac. While the car did have 3 headlights, and he did pick it up at the factory, he did not have a title, nor did he have an MCO, since he stole the car.

Suppose you pick up a nice car on some parking lot, and show up at the DMV wanting to register and obtain a title in your name for that car, and you have no paperwork whatsoever on that car. Do you think the DMV officials ought to issue you a title, and make you the official owner of record, and provide you with a unique set of license plates?

Personally, I don't. I'm sure car thieves would appreciate it.

License plates and state-issued titles make things difficult for criminals, and for the most part, the fees collected go toward financing construction and maintenence of the public roadways and state highway patrol services, without which a motor vehicle would be near-useless.

The vehicle registration system is of great benefit to law enforcement and to the law-abiding community. It's not perfect, but it's much more useful and much less expensive than most government programs these days, and it's paid for primarily by the primary beneficiaries, they being the driving public and commercial users of the public roadways.

[Scott_Conger]

after some thought, I think we should celebrate for Terry on him accomplishing what he set out to do so long ago, and simply leave the kibitzing on methodology alone...it accomplishes nothing other than to diminish the results and that was not the point of his first and follow-up postings.

Glad you're moving forward Terry

[John Codman]

The government does not own your car. The answer to Terry's question about how could the government take you're car if it didn't own it is simple. Due process. If you have not complied with the law, and the government can convince a court of law that you are not likely to do so, The government can get a court order to seize the car. When the feds make a drug bust and seize the drugs, there is no supposition of Government ownership of the drugs until they are physically seized. The same is true of eminent domain. If the government owned your car and you were involved in an accident in which you were at fault, as owner of the car the government would be a defendant. They are not, because they are not.

[mtntee20]

Gentlemen,

I have great respect for your opinions. They reflect years of experience.

Taking this in a different direction, or maybe I should say "different subject" same direction. I believe the vast majority of us on this forum "own" a home, land, and maybe more undeveloped land. When you purchased the property did you ask about mineral rights? If you ask now, about mineral rights, what answer do you expect to receive? The majority of home and land owners have a Deed of Trust or a Warranty Deed being the most common.

Did you ever wonder: if you paid hard earned cash for your property, why you did NOT get the mineral rights to that property? If you haven't asked, go ahead and ask the county assessor, a real estate agent, or anyone dealing in land/homes. You MAY think you own it but let BP find oil and see how fast BP owns your land instead of you. They may pay you a few dollars to make you feel better but you will NEVER get the amount the land, structures, AND oil are worth. This all comes about because the government owns the land, NOT YOU. The government allows you to live there as long as you pay your taxes on that land/home every year.

Has anyone heard about a Land Patent? He who holds the Land Patent OWNS the land. Now when BP comes knocking at your door, YOU set the sale price and not the government by eminent domain. We will never know how many people have lost their homes/property via eminent domain just because the government decided they needed it more than the people holding the Deed of Trust.

If you actually own the land you are paid/paying for by Land Patent, the government can not throw you off or make you sell for their price.

For well over 100 years, this stuff has been going on. First with land and then with vehicles and with other things as well.

Having said ALL of that, DO NOT BELIEVE ME!!!! GO DO SOME RESEARCH FOR YOURSELF OR FIND SOMEONE YOU WILL BELIEVE. I'm NOT looking for fame or glory. I want to give back to the people on this forum for all the help they have given me and others. I see a LOT of good people here. If I am able to help just a little, I feel it's my obligation to try. I'll touch a few and make the rest think I'm insane but those few make it all worthwhile.

I am NOT going to argue as I completely value and respect YOUR opinions and positions. I ask the same of you. My goal here is to shed a ray of light on a corrupt government system fleecing the working people who MAKE this world; EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU!

Good Luck to Everyone.

[TXGOAT2]

In Texas, a property owner may own any portion of the mineral rights on and under a property from 0% to 100%.

Many landowners have chosen to sell their mineral rights, or some portion of them, and thus lost a significant amount of control of their property.


In many cases, mineral rights and /or surface rights are divided among heirs, who may or may not choose to retain them.

If you own land and minerall rights, you can sell or assign the surface rights, or the mineral rights, or any portion of either that you choose.

Mineral rights owners have the right to develop and exploit their mineral rights, within the law, and the surface owner must accomodate them, again, within the law, wheter the surface owner retains any mineral rights or not.


If you own a property and the mineral rights related to it, I suggest that you do not sell your rights, or any portion of them, but you are free in such a situation to make whatever disposal of your property that you may choose.


If you buy a property, I suggest that you investigate whether mineral rights, or any portion of them, are included in the sale.

Many city lot owners in the Dallas/Fort Wortharea found that they had mineral rights to their city lots, and they were beneficiaries of the recent shale oil boom in that area. Situations like that can make book keeping and distribution of proceeds from mineral production a nightmare.

The State of Texas goes to great lengths to see to it that mineral rights owners receive their just share of any proceeds from exploitation of their mineral interest, be it great or small.

I once received a royalty check for twenty seven cents related to gas production on a tract of land in Erath County that once belonged to my great-grandfather. The land was sold long ago, but some portion of the mineral rights was passed to my mother, and when gas was discovered under the land, substantial checks were sent to my grandmother and later my mother. I inherited a portion of my mother's mineral interest, and for a few years, some checks reached 150 to 200 dollars a month. As the gas production declined, the checks shrank away to nothing.

I still own the fraction of the mineral rights, but absent any production, no income accrues, and no one is interested in buying the rights.

[TXGOAT2]

There is OPINION, and there is FACT.

It's best to avoid confusing one with the other.