Resurrecting a 1921-ish Touring

[jamlip]

Hi all. I recently purchased my first Model T. It's a Touring, and the previous owner told me it was a 1921 with a 1922 engine (the engine serial number checks out). Please forgive my ignorance - I've owned lots of cars but never anything like this before!



The car is kind of rough and hasn't driven in a few years, but the previous owner used it, including a few entries into the Montana 500.

It had a homemade plywood dashboard and the coil box has a keyed switch on it. I have removed all the old wiring and installed a new harness kit.

This is where I need help... I believe a 1921 car should have a steel dashboard with a key switch and an ammeter in the center (and no switch on the timer box) - is this correct?

Just trying to get everything back to more or less how it should be so I have a base to start from.



Thanks! James

[George House]

Nope.... your coil box is correct for 1921. And it appears you have some nice accessories: spare tire carrier for one. Your brake pedal implies external contracting rear brakes too

[John kuehn]

In dating your car the answer would be what your car started out from the factory with.

The 19 -22 cars with the straight windshield can be really hard to pin down what year they are because they look so much alike.
Generally the cars that had the coil switch box mounted on the firewall were non starter cars.
The cars with a starter had the dashboard with the switch and amp meter mounted on it.

I have a mid year 21 Touring that has the dashboard with the switch amp meter mounted on it. Also remember the transition from from one year to another would start in the previous mid year so that’s something to consider also.

Your car has the switch on the coil box and it may have started as a non starter car. BUT over time a starter engine could have been added and the
Because during this period the owners of non-starter cars would update their cars and is where it can be hard date these cars.

[TXGOAT2]

It would probably be a good idea to clean the gas tank and flush the radiator and change the engine oil. I'd lubricate everything on the car. You'll need a battery. The ignition points may be corroded if the car has been inactive for a long time.

[Steve Jelf]

Here's something for the first time Model T owner:
https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html


Expanding a little on what Pat said, here's a maintenance checklist. The illustration is from the 1915-1916 owners' manual, so it doesn't show the generator and starter that also take oiling.

[jamlip]

Nope.... your coil box is correct for 1921. And it appears you have some nice accessories: spare tire carrier for one. Your brake pedal implies external contracting rear brakes too

Thank you for this info. Yes, the car has a Ruckstell and Rocky Mountain brakes. I've wanted a Model T for years - my great-grandfather was a Model A panel fitter in the UK, and Ford is also a customer of mine. The car was local and reasonably priced, and I thought my wife and 5-year-old boy might enjoy driving around the neighborhood at least.

In dating your car the answer would be what your car started out from the factory with.

The 19 -22 cars with the straight windshield can be really hard to pin down what year they are because they look so much alike.
Generally the cars that had the coil switch box mounted on the firewall were non starter cars.
The cars with a starter had the dashboard with the switch and amp meter mounted on it.

I have a mid year 21 Touring that has the dashboard with the switch amp meter mounted on it. Also remember the transition from from one year to another would start in the previous mid year so that’s something to consider also.

Your car has the switch on the coil box and it may have started as a non starter car. BUT over time a starter engine could have been added and the
Because during this period the owners of non-starter cars would update their cars and is where it can be hard date these cars.

I think the guy I bought it from (a really nice man who used the car around SoCal and in several Montana 500 runs) said the starter had been added. Does this mean the car would originally have had no dash at all? Would it also have had no battery (magneto only)? There is a home-brew battery bracket underneath the car.

On doing some digging on this forum (I love this forum!) I also read that non-starter cars have Kerosene side and rear lanterns. This is what I have. The rear one has been wired for a brake light.

Also the steering column - is it supposed to be floating in thin air like it currently is? I've seen pictures of cars with a mount that attaches the column either to the dash or perhaps somewhere on the firewall.

It would probably be a good idea to clean the gas tank and flush the radiator and change the engine oil. I'd lubricate everything on the car. You'll need a battery. The ignition points may be corroded if the car has been inactive for a long time.

The car sat for around five years in the California outdoors. I'll check the points. I have greased every fitting I could find, cleaned the gas tank, cleaned-out the filter plate above the transmission, had the carb overhauled via Langs, changed the engine oil and changed the oil in the Ruckstell. I also removed the water pump setup (it was leaking at the shaft) and reconfigured the system for the thermosiphon setup with new hoses. If it works, I'll keep it like that.

I need to fit a new fuel line (the old one was made up of too many pieces for my liking) get it wired up.

If I'm not running a dash switch and ammeter, where does the harness terminate? Or do I need to reconfigure it for my car?

[Norman Kling]

Only a few cars still have the original engine block. There were also aftermarket blocks sold without a number and the purchaser would stamp the original engine number on it. There might also be some engines out there with identical numbers if someone had later rebuilt the old engine and re-used it. And others have changed the vin number of the car to the number stamped on a replacement engine.
So you cannot rely on the engine number to be sure what year the car is. The car looks in the picture on the trailer to be in good condition. Very important to the body is also the condition of the wood. The body is sheet metal tacked onto a wood skeleton. So if the wood is rotted or termite infested the body will sag in various places and the doors and hood might not fit correctly. If the car has been in Cathedral City or in that vicinity most of it's life, especially if stored indoors, There is less likelihood of rot or rust, but I'm not sure whether or not there are termites in an area with hot summers.
also the condition of the frame could also cause things to sag. So,anyway, check out the body and if good, you might just concentrate on the mechanical parts and drive it as, "unrestored".
Depending on how the car was stored, will make a big difference on how easy it will be to get it running. The original pistons were cast iron, so if there was any dampness in the cyllinders, they might be rusted in place. If the engine will turn over with the crank, you are lucky. You could have stuck valves, so check them out too. Old oil should at least be changed and if you get it running, run a short distance and change again. One area of concern is the fuel system. If it was not completely drained and the fuel line blown out before storage, you might need to replace the tank and fuel line. Some good radiator shops can boil out the tank and save it, but it might cost as much as a new tank, however, new tanks might be backordered, so you might need to save the old one if you can't find a new one. The carburetor will also need to be completely cleaned and all the passages blown out. If the fluid is still in the cooling system, some might have seeped into the engine which would settle to the bottom of the oil sump.. Or if not treated with rust inhibitor, it might have rusted the head and block so be sure to flush things out and if it overheats, you might need to remove the head and clean out the water passages in the engine. The radiator may or may not need to be replaced or rodded. Anyway, if it were mine I would work on the mechanical parts first to get it running and to find out the extent of repairs they will need. See picture of a 20 which I spent several years getting to run for a friend. We did not do any body work except to put on a new top. We replaced the gas tank and fuel line and while I had it replaced the wood wheels and installed a Ruckstell axle and Rocky Mountain brakes. Also replaced the shaft in the steering column. It ran when I returned it. I'm now very good at taking pictures. Wish I had taken some after the top and windshield were on.
Norm

[jamlip]

Thanks Norman. I forgot to add to my previous post that I flushed the engine cooling system. I blanked-off the return port, filled the block with CLR, left it overnight and then blasted everything through with a hose. Some rusty bits came out but nothing more than expected.

Regarding the body - the previous owner was definitely more into driving than showing. I had a poke around and the wood is very baggy, with all sorts of screws things added to keep it together. The roof bows are good but the roof itself is starting to go. The doors do not open nicely. One door has a latch missing and is held shut with a bungee cord. There are some stress cracks in the sheet metal that have been stick-welded, but I cannot find any rust. Apparently it was with a mining company in Kingman AZ, so it probably has never seen rain but it may have seen a lot of abuse elsewhere.

The car was pretty cheap, given the Ruckstell and the RMBs, so I'm not too concerned - I love driving and working on cars of all types and always wanted to try owning a T. The previous owner was very decent and honest - 'it's a T, I drove the heck out of it for years, I can't remember the detail, now it is yours...'

[jamlip]

This little bit of info has helped me start digging. This is what I've learned about my 1921 car so far:

By Erik Johnson on Friday, February 14, 2014 - 10:43 am:
According to Bruce McCalley's online encyclopedia, 1919 through 1921 model year non-starter cars used the same set up that was introduced in the 1918 model year: combination horn button/light switch. The mag/bat switch remained on the coilbox and the cars had no dashboard.

So it looks like I need to hunt down this combination horn / light switch (appears Langs sells the front part of it: https://www.modeltford.com/item/8651.aspx), or at least wire in a toggle switch for the time being.

The other thing I found out is that non-dash cars had a kind of voltage regulator / resistor mounted on the firewall to stop the magneto spiking the headlights. Later dashboard cars had one mounted under a blanking plate under the ammeter. Anyone know where I might be able to find this firewall-mounted resistor?

Happy to stand corrected - I'm still new on the job.

[TXGOAT2]

It may be a "choke", or induction coil. A choke is better than a resistor for regulating the AC magneto output since it will offer more resistance as the engine speed (and magneto AC output frequency) increase. The choke device that Ford used on some magneto-only cars was an iron core choke. They seem to be rather scarce. The device would be similar in electrical properties to the primary winding in a typical 6 volt ignition coil, and and a 6 volt or perhaps a twelve volt ignition coil primary might make a fair substitute for the Ford device.

[John kuehn]

Going by your description of a home brew battery holder and a starter being added your T started out a non-starter car. Since you have a starter engine it should have a generator on it too. The oil side lamps usually came with the non-starter cars also.

I guess you need to determine which way you want to go in getting it like you want. If it were my car I would go with how a starter equipped car would be since it’s got the starter engine along with a generator.

Another question would be if it does have a generator and if it does you wouldn’t need the earlier electrical setup like the non starter and non generator cars had.

[speedytinc]

Going by your description of a home brew battery holder and a starter being added your T started out a non-starter car. Since you have a starter engine it should have a generator on it too. The oil side lamps usually came with the non-starter cars also.

I guess you need to determine which way you want to go in getting it like you want. If it were my car I would go with how a starter equipped car would be since it’s got the starter engine along with a generator.

Given this info, why would you want to step down to mag lights? You should decide weather to go electric or non electric.
Electric= demountable rims, starter/generator system & electric lighting.(kerosene side lights would be incorrect, but many run them for appearance.) You would need an ammeter.
Non electric includes a kerosene tail light.
Hybrid=Use the mag to charge the battery. Keep the starter, battery lighting, etc.

[jamlip]

I may have spoken too soon about the battery bracket - it appears it could be original (although maybe not original to the car).

Been reading up on mag-powered lights and I don't think I want to do that.

Now I know where to look, I see there is evidence there is evidence of a horn or horn / headlight combination switch being attached to my steering column once upon a time. The combo switch is NLA, so I guess the path of least resistance from here is to wire a headlight switch at the firewall, a horn switch at the column, and be done with it.

I also noticed my starter wire was 4-gauge, so I've pulled that to replace with with some monster stuff I have here which I thought was 0 gauge but may be closer to 000.

[TXGOAT2]

The magneto lights were not much better than the kerosene and acetylene lights. Today, finding correct bulbs may not be so easy. The inductive regulator improved the magneto light setup to a degree, but it still left a lot to be desired.

[John kuehn]

The correct location for the battery carrier is on the drivers side under the rear floor board. If it’s there the battery carrier could have been added. The frame was probably pre drilled since you could get a car with or without electrical equipment.

[Allan]

The battery is on the driver's side only on LHD cars. It is on the LEFT side of ALL cars.

On our RHD Canadian sourced cars, the frame rails are drilled so the battery carrier can be fitted either way. This is nonsensical, because the battery cannot be fitted on the right hand side because of the exhaust system. Why is this so? It has been suggested that all the frame rails were punched for the required holes for the battery carrier, steering bracket, handbrake quadrant etc, BEFORE they were pressed into their U shape. The same flat blank was used for both RHD and LHD frames. The handbrake quadrant and steering bracket holes are used on either side, but the battery carrier must be on the left.

Allan from down under.

[jamlip]

OK, I've wired the car for my unique situation - starter, but no dash or ammeter, and mag / battery selector switch on the coil box.

How am I doing?



I'd like to connect post A (leftmost, wire to generator) to post C (third from left, goes to battery via foot-activated starter switch), but I'm concerned about draining the battery when the engine is not running. I tested with a multimeter and there is (a high-resistance) continuity from the generator to the chassis, as expected.

With regards to the lights, there is evidence of a steering column-mounted switch having been on the car once upon a time. I understand these are difficult to find, but I may as well try - anyone have one, or a source for one?

[speedytinc]

The "evidence" of a column mounted light switch may not be so. That switch/horn button takes the same sheet metal housing as just a horn button.
Note the low steel firewall. Offered briefly on late 22 to 23 & as a wood firewall replacement later.

If you are going to run a generator, an ammeter is important to monitor output & functioning. You can save the generator from a total burnout if a cutout fails or an open in the circuit.

[John kuehn]

Since you already have the coils what about finding the later firewall coil box and dash panel. Then you could add the amp /switch that came along in late 21-21. You already have the low cowl steel firewall. Originally your car probably had the wood firewall to begin with.
Just a thought!

[speedytinc]

Since you already have the coils what about finding the later firewall coil box and dash panel. Then you could add the amp /switch that came along in late 21-21. You already have the low cowl steel firewall. Originally your car probably had the wood firewall to begin with.
Just a thought!

This is a fairly inexpensive batch of parts. A good instrument panel is around $60. The early column switch is more scarce. The coil box is worth $10. The dash is fairly common @ swap meets. Go for the late 23-24 dash with the steering column bracket, or add that bracket.
These bits would get you to an "electric" T, if thats the way you want to go.

[jamlip]

Thanks guys. I wasn't looking to save money per se, just to get the thing running using what I have available, and add this stuff later on.

It's so close...

[TXGOAT2]

Your wiring job looks very neat and sharp. However, in the case of the high tension spark plug wires, it's best to keep them apart from one another or anything else. If they are closer than 1/2" to one another, or anything else, they are apt to allow the high voltage to leak to ground or into another plug wire. If they are close to one another and running parallel for any distance, one plug wire can induce voltage into another wire and cause a misfire. It's best to keep them as short as is practical and keep them at least 1" from each other and anything else. More clearance is better.

[jamlip]

Thank you Pat, I really appreciate the info.

[Steve Jelf]

Note the low steel firewall. Offered briefly on late 22 to 23 ...

Even more briefly than that. According to the encyclopedia the steel firewall was introduced in January 1923. Both steel and wood firewalls were used for a couple of months, then only steel. The 1923 steel firewall was used only about seven months until the 1924 model year arrived. Identifying the two different steel firewalls is easy. 1923 has a large hole for wiring under the terminal block. 1924-25 has it above the terminal block.

[John kuehn]

I believe that over time and the low cowl T’s were getting older people would get a steel low cowl firewall to replace the deteriorating wood firewalls since they would fit from 17-22. It would make since to do that. That’s just my opinion. As many T’s were made the wrecking yards were full of all kinds of wrecked and junked out T’s besides other old cars.

[speedytinc]

I believe that over time and the low cowl T’s were getting older people would get a steel low cowl firewall to replace the deteriorating wood firewalls since they would fit from 17-22. It would make since to do that. That’s just my opinion. As many T’s were made the wrecking yards were full of all kinds of wrecked and junked out T’s besides other old cars.

If you look @ post 23 parts manuals, they only show steel replacements. Thats probably why there seem to be an excess of them. You wouldnt expect to see so many 1 year only firewalls.

[jamlip]

Thanks for your help so far.

Turns out I bought the bones of a 1921 Touring, not really a machine that you could really classify as a car.

I connected-up the starter and found it wouldn't turn over. So I removed it, disassembled it, and found this...





Maybe not easy to see in the photos, but the insulation is worn through on the commutator wires and the brushes are worn at all sorts of weird angles.

So I've pulled it off the car. I'm going to blank-off the starter hole for now. Or cave-in and buy another starter... I have time to decide.

Then I decided to hand-crank the car. Retard the ignition, pull through and check the coils seemed are buzzing like they should, choke a bit, crank.

Crank. Crank. Crank. Crank. Crank. Crank. Crank. Crank. Nothing.

Starter fluid... Crank. Crank. Crank. Crank. Crank. Nothing.

Pull the plugs - three stuck valves. Two intake, two exhaust.

So this morning I drained the coolant and pulled the head. One valve I can get to move by tapping it down, but the other two are jammed. What a nightmare. I'm away on work for a few days so I'm going to soak the shafts in ATF and see what's up when I get back. In the meantime I've ordered a spring compressor. May add a reamer to the list, too.

One advantage of all this is that I've gone from Zero Model T Mechanical Knowledge to Some Model T Mechanical Knowledge pretty quickly. I'm getting to know this car pretty well now...

[TXGOAT2]

It looks as if the car has been run with very dirty oil. The starter needs a complete overhaul at the least. The crud may be cooked wiring or dirty crankcase oil residue, or both. I'd free up the valves, and while you have the head off, inspect as much of the cylinder walls as you can. It wouldn't hurt to crank the engine until any 2 pistons are about 1/2 " down from TDC and pour a couple of tablespoonfulls of Marvel oil on top of them and let them soak over night, then do the same to the other two. With the valves working and a fresh fill of 10W30 oil, the engine ought to start and run. It may run better the longer you run it. I wouldn't condemn it if it smokes at first. If it knocks, the cause would need to be found and remedied right away.

[jamlip]

Thanks Pat. The oil that came out of the engine didn't look too bad, and I obviously replaced it with new as part of my initial maintenance sweep (along with new oil in the Ruckstell, new coolant, new wiring and so on).

The engine does turn over freely, it's just the three valves that are stuck. It's my assumption they rusted in place due to the car being sat idle for so many years.

[John kuehn]

Hey!
Lots of T’s have set up and found just like this! Your in the right direction by pulling the head and getting the valves unstuck. As stated in the earlier post it would be a good idea to drain the oil. A step further would be to put about a gallon of diesel in the engine and slowly turn the engine over and let it sit overnight and turn it over again several times.
Then add some 10w30 oil.
You’ll be surprised when you drain the diesel what it will look like.
Also just read you have already drained the oil so it may not need the diesel cleanup job!

[jamlip]

Thank you John. I contemplated adding a bit of engine flush / kerosene to my new oil until I wondered how it would interact with the belts, then decided I’d just run it and do some oil changes with cheapo detergent semi-synthetic and see how that plays out. Right now I just want to see the thing start!

[Scott_Conger]

I'm not a big fan of stirring that bad of a soup up with kerosene, myself

Advice:
Every time I service a car like this, the oil gets drained, the lower pan comes off and let things drip for a day. Then with old clothes on and armed with a ton of red shop rags, I go to town wiping the inside of the engine down until it is spotless (at least everything that can be reached). Remove the horseshoes, clean them and then wipe the grit/carbon/corruption out of the edge of the pan. Reassemble everything.

Fresh oil (and when you get the valves freed up) start the car and idle for 5 minutes or so. Sacrifice that new oil and drain it (it will be dark). Add new oil and if you did your work on the inside of the engine, the oil will look respectable every time you change it (500 miles or so).

Also, after the car is running (valves fixed), pull the right front-most bolt out of the pan and catch the small amount of oil that drains out. Start the car. Oil should issue forth at a good clip...and if so, you have verified that the internal oil line is clear. If it doesn't flow briskly, well you have more work to do, but at least you just saved your rod bearings.

Opinion:
As an aside, a kerosene flush when new was dubious at best, and remember, you were only flushing out 6 months or so of crud built up when the car was "new". As the old versions of oil were prone to sludging, there was probably some benefit...I wouldn't argue one way or another. You, my friend, have an entirely different thing: a 100 year old car with horribly dirty oil as evidenced by starter, and it contains a bunch of very hard, very sharp, carbon particulate which will cut the daylights out of your bearings if the oil they are suspended in is thinned to water and allowed to go where they cannot go now.

have fun

[TXGOAT2]

I believe a much safer course than kerosene or diesel to clean up a sludgy engine is to get clean detergent oil in it and run it, avoiding high speeds and loads. Stay away from viscous oil. A mutigrade like 10W30 is best. Detergent oil will very gradually dissolve deposits and keep the residue in supension so that it can be drained off when oil is changed. A very dirty engine would benefit from physically removing as much crud as can be reached, as discussed above. Clean out crankcase area and behind the valve cover. Don't just push it around, get it out. A couple of oil changes after 300 miles of running, or sooner if oil looks very bad, will take care of the worst of the crud. I've had good results using Marvel Mystery Oil in old, sludgy engines to free up noisey hydraulic valve lifters and stuck piston rings. Always drain oil hot after a run of several miles. Elevating the front axle 10" or more off the floor will help oil drain. A transmission cover screen and magnet is a good addition to any T, and one can be helpful in trapping old lint, metal particles, and larger chunks of carbon that may circulate in the oil as old deposits dissolve.

[jamlip]

Thanks again. When I pulled the transmission cover plate there was a screen underneath that was caked in what appeared to be oily sludge and fiber from the belts. Is the screen an aftermarket part?

The oil itself didn’t strike me as particularly filthy, despite the color of the internals of the starter. I wonder if the starter was dirty when it went on the car (whenever that was).

[Scott_Conger]

Trust me

your engine is filthy inside

they all are, until purchased and maintained by someone who cares, and knows how to maintain one...and in the life of a "T", those people are far and few between

And Yes, the screen is an aftermarket item and sounds like it is doing what it is supposed to do.

[George House]

They’re also few and far between Scott

[jamlip]

Ha! Got it.

I’ll run the current oil through it and give it a scrub on the next change. I appreciate the info.

[jamlip]

Pulled the valves this morning by levering a crescent wrench through a loop of wire on the manifold studs. One of the exhaust valves was incredibly hard to get out - I had to jam it through using various tools and nuts of increasing size placed between the lifter and valve as I turned the crank, the wrestle the final bit with vice grips and a ball of rags. Shudder.

All stems and guides cleaned up well and everything now slides around as it should with no lateral play. Re-faced the seats the with some fine lapping compound.



These valves have collets, not roll pins, and the lifters are adjustable. Huh.



Not sure when the engine was last rebuilt, but the pistons are .060 oversize and there's still cross-hatching on the cylinder walls:



That's all for now. Awaiting some gaskets from Langs' and a proper spring compression tool to reinstall the valves.

[Scott_Conger]

all very encouraging...you may be one of the rare birds who didn't inherit a real woebegone engine with your purchase. Good for you.

[jamlip]

You absolutely called it on the oil situation though - it's beyond filthy. I didn't realize till now.

[John kuehn]

Be sure to clean the transmission filter. That’s an aftermarket item that really does work. And looks like the engine was rebuilt some time ago with the adjustable lifters and oversize pistons. That’s a good thing and needs better oil and maintenance. So your on your way.

[jamlip]

Thanks John. I cleaned out that filter on my initial voyage of discovery.

Told my wife half a day to get this little guy running again (and I believed it). HA HA HA HA HA ad nauseam.

[Scott_Conger]

That attitude is going to serve you well in the coming weeks.

Just persevere and be sure to take the wife out to dinner soon.

[jamlip]

Well, I must have burned 3000 calories cranking this morning, but…

IT LIVES

Took it around the block and I have no idea how to drive it. It’s terrifying. The brakes are either naturally terrible or totally out of adjustment. No idea what the pedals are doing despite my attempts at pre-flight familiarization.

Regardless, an amazing feeling to have it going. It’s like driving a piece of furniture.

[Scott_Conger]

It’s like driving a piece of furniture

Not surprised...it has more wood in it than an IKEA credenza



Glad you're having fun

Be careful!

[jamlip]

Scott and all, I really appreciate your help.

I had great fun today. I was starting to get the hang of driving it after about half an hour of tearing around the neighborhood.

Here are some videos. Apologies for the overly dramatic start - I think you're meant to be more relaxed than this and I've got it down to a short flick now. This was shot when I was still convinced the crank was going to tear my arm off.

https://i.imgur.com/RcMfpjs.mp4

https://i.imgur.com/zqg4duB.mp4



It was really fun to see how much people enjoyed the car. I own some other old cars that people gravitate towards, but this was another level. Nice that it makes people smile.

Next tasks - check the Rocky Mountain brakes are working as well as they should, wire up the headlamps and tail light, connect the brake light, work out why it won't run on magneto.

Then a body renovation (or move it on and buy someone else's finished job).

[Scott_Conger]

Different cars become different level projects for different people. Honestly, your car is perfectly suited to simply enjoying as-is. For a long time. I personally would NOT be inclined to do a thing to it until you get a few years of driving under your belt. These things are easy to take apart and can take a lifetime going back together and from that smile on your face, driving it probably eclipses the enjoyment you'll get telling folks "somewhere in that pile there once was a Model T".

Am very pleased for you. From everything you've shown us, you have a very solid car. Enjoy the heck out of it.

[John kuehn]

Glad you got it running and then driving it! A suggestion would be to place your thumb OVER the crank handle in stead of around it when hand cranking it!
The reason is that IF the engine kicks back the crank hits directly back against your shoulder resulting in a broken arm or wrenched shoulder! It can happen. Model T’s are interesting cars to drive and tinker with but if the spark lever is advanced downward to far it isn’t fun for quite a while. Drive it like it is and get to know it. It’s a different world out there when your cruising along around 30-35 MPH.

[TXGOAT2]

I'd be inclined to enjoy it as-is, doing mechanical repairs as needed, and tracking down and remedying annoying rattles, loose parts, and securing wiring defects as needed. You can learn a lot by tidying up loose ends without spending a lot of money and time, or doing a major tear down. Often, a little time and very little, if any, cash outlay will make a big difference in how the car behaves. One loose or missing bolt can unleash an army of squeaks and rattles, and fixing it is usually easy and cheap. Adjustments can often cure seemingly serious problems. Oiling all moving parts, including the springs, will usually improve the performance of the car. Accumulating some time behind the wheel, out of traffic, is always helpful. A reliable ignition system, cooling system, steering system, and fuel system will get you there and back most every time.

[Steve Jelf]

In the first video it looks like you're getting a kick-back when you pull the crank. That indicates the timing is advanced (lever down). When starting on BAT it needs to be fully retarded (lever up). Here are a couple of pages on timing and starting:

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG101.html

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

In the first video it looks like you're getting a kick-back when you pull the crank. That indicates the timing is advanced (lever down). When starting on BAT it needs to be fully retarded (lever up). Here are a couple of pages on timing and starting:

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG101.html

I agree with Steve here. If you had been cranking the wrong way, you might have gotten a nasty "bite" from the crank. Definitely check your timing before cranking it again.

[jamlip]

Thanks all. I find it difficult to leave mechanical things in an imperfect state of repair (a byproduct of aircraft ownership) but I can live with aesthetic imperfection. It looks just fine in its current beat-up state and it's more fun to drive than look at. I do have a seat spring right in my butt, and one of the doors won't stay closed because the lock is under the back seat, so those things will have to be sorted.

And thanks for the cranking tips. The linkage rod was bent so far out of adjustment that it wouldn't even attempt to fire. I re-bent the rod bit by bit to dial in more advance at the upmost stop of the lever and I think I have it sorted now - I'm certainly finding it a lot easier than the early attempt in the video.

I'm keeping my thumb under the crank. Feels like hand-propping an airplane - straightforward, but if you don't take the procedure seriously, it may ruin your day.

Now to work out why it won't stop!

[Scott_Conger]

James

go back and read the links that Steve Jelf posted.

you CANNOT adjust the timing by trial and error and expect to remain in one piece over the long run. There IS a correct way to do it. You may be close or you may just be lucky. Don't chance it.

[John kuehn]

When in doubt read the instructions. It works every time!

[jamlip]

James

go back and read the links that Steve Jelf posted.

you CANNOT adjust the timing by trial and error and expect to remain in one piece over the long run. There IS a correct way to do it. You may be close or you may just be lucky. Don't chance it.

OK, I’ll take it more seriously. I did read the service manual, which led me to conclude the thing was over-retarded. But… yes. Now checked and within spec.

Next conundrum. I’d like this thing to run on magneto. It runs great at low RPM, but I can’t get it past 27mph. Figuring it’s a limitation of sparking on battery (and a whole load of other issues I have yet to learn about).

This evening I pulled the magneto post / oiler thing and… there doesn’t appear to be a magneto in there. Nothing. Is this possible?! There’s no distributor or E-Timer on board.

One other thing - I pulled the filter screen to assess the effect my self-study driver training regime was having on the bands. There’s belt detritus in there after only a few miles, as expected. More worryingly, two pieces of metal were in there too. Can anyone identify where these two guys started life?

[TXGOAT2]

The car should run 35 MPH on level ground with no trouble. A T with stock ignition will generally run a little better on magneto than on battery, but it should run well enough on battery, especially if the generator is functioning. A great many things could limit performance at higher speeds. Among these are: Timer issues, coil adjustment, fuel delivery, throttle linkage, late timing, spark lever linkage, dsragging brakes, dragging bands, weak valve springs, chaffed timer wiring, coil box contacts, and more.

[jamlip]

Thanks. This far in, I can eliminate about half of that list.

Any idea why the magneto is missing? I’ve done some reading and I’m concerned about two things now - that the engine isn’t getting splash-lubricated as it should, and the horror stories of people getting injured by exploding magnets when they fail and exit the hog’s head.

I’m really keen to keep this car original, but I also don’t want to rip a hole through my wife or kid (I’m kind of disposable tho).

[John kuehn]

One thing about learning about Model T’s and especially if they are stock is that they aren’t built for much past 30-35 MPH and that’s on level ground. You can do but it a T won’t last long pushing it past that point. It’s not more than 20 hp to begin with.
At 30 MPH coming to a stop wont abruptly happen! Always drive defensively. It’s not like driving a modern vehicle that reacts on the dime. T’s DONT!! Stopping is a process that won’t happen with the push of a pedal!

It’s one thing driving in a fairly open road or area. But it’s a whole new ball game in a well travelled road! Some body coming up behind you at 50+ MPH is fast if your cruising along at 30MPH on a fairly crowed road.
Take your time and enjoy your T for what it is. A car that has 100 year technology that put the world on wheels.

Folks have gotten injured or worse for more often by getting hit and killed than the engine blowing up and getting hit from parts.

[Scott_Conger]

There are remarkably FEW instances of magnets piercing the hogs head, and the one spectacular event posted periodically here on the forum was of a TT (low geared) truck which was flat-towed at high speed (engine speed VERY high). That is not a typical failure. Driven at designed speeds, the risk of injury is very nearly statistically zero. Yes, they can come apart. It is an unfortunate fact that 100 year old machinery relying on crystalized brass screws to hold some of the components together will fail. When it does, it is noisy and your trip ends right then and there. That's about it.

as far as fearing that it is not oiling properly, pull the right-front corner bolt out of the inspection pan (catch the little bit of oil in a pan). Start the car. Oil should emanate pretty briskly out that bolt hole if everything is clear as it should be. If it just drips or barely piddles, then yes, the oil line is clogged.

[John kuehn]

When you pulled the starter in an earlier post did you notice the magnets or magneto coil ring in there? When you remove the bendix first and pull out the starter you can see if the magnets and mag ring are there. More than a few T’s mag rings have been damaged by wiggling around the starter and bendix around trying to remove the starter and bendix in one piece. And some T owners have removed the magnets and coil ring and installed oil slingers on the flywheel for better lubrication. But most haven’t been.

[jamlip]

I didn't check (because I assumed there would be a mag ring in there), so this morning I pulled the cover and found...



Assuming these are slingers attached to the flywheel.

Question is, why no magneto?

[jamlip]

Regarding those two bits of metal I found in the screen, am I right in thinking they are a rivet from the bands?

[TXGOAT2]

People remove magnetos for various reasons. A stock or near-stock car will run better with a magneto that is in working order. Besides the added versatility and reliability offered by the magneto, the rotating magneto parts function as part of the flywheel, adding mass which allows the engine to run more smoothly while developing more low speed torque. Crank starting is also made easier. In addition, the original magneto assembly also functions as an oil pump. Substitutes may or may not be fully adequate for general service in a stock T. I'd want to replace the missing parts at the first opportunity.

[TXGOAT2]

The metal junk is not band rivets. I can't tell what it/they were, but someone will recognize it/them. It's possible that the loose metal parts damaged the magneto, resulting in it being removed.

[jamlip]

Thanks Pat. Time to have a think where I want to end up with this car.

[John kuehn]

Yes it has the added oil slingers. Those small pieces might be the remains of a flywheel screw. It would be about the same size. If you want an original car you would want the magneto coil ring and magnets back in the car.
The previous owner probably thought since he was running in the Montana 500 removing the magnets and coil ring it would give the engine more RPM or??

As far as time and labor and money is concerned you could add a distributor easier than pulling the engine down. You would have to remove the transmission on an engine stand, add the coil ring and magnets. And while you would have access to the transmission you could check it out.
If you did that your car would be pretty close to an original engine set up.

[TXGOAT2]

A near-stock T might run a little faster without the drag of the magnets in the oil, but you'd be flirting with under- oiling if you reduced the amount of oil being splashed by very much. You'd also lose low end torque, and might have lower ignition performance at higher RPM.

[speedytinc]

Magnet screws are brass. Non magnetic. If those pieces are magnetic, they are rivets from the transmission drums or drive plate.
You cant see them on the drums.
If they are from the drive plate, you can see them thru the transmission inspection cover. Look where the 3 clutch fingers are over the output shaft under the throw out bearing. Its common for these rivets to work loose from a misaligned pan.

[John kuehn]

It looks like a steel flywheel ring gear screw in two pieces to me but it may not be. It was probably left or lost in the engine when it was removed and the oil slingers were added.

[jamlip]

Quite a lot of time and effort, and walking home, to get the car to where it is now, but today I made my first out-and-back trip with the car running strong and no breakdowns.



Driving - https://imgur.com/21eEqB2

First up, I have to admit to installing an E-Timer. Since discovering the magneto had been removed from the car, I figured anything went, and a modern ignition system would save me a lot of time in messing around. It did - it just runs beautifully (kind of - it runs like garbage with the coil box lid in place, so I think there's some arcing / tracing going on. With the lid removed, no problem).

A by product of the poor running was that I had blown the muffler apart. Instead of doing the sensible thing and buying a new muffler for $40, I decided to re-make the outer case using some sheet steel from the side panel of a BBQ grill that my neighbor was throwing away. It was a very expensive grill and the steel welded really nicely.





Next to dos -

Find a new bowl for one of my kerosene lamps.
Replace the tires.
Shim some loose spokes.
Replace the rear left hub (which has been packed-out onto the spindle with shim stock).

I'm also going to pull the generator and throw a 6v solar trickle charger on the floor in the back. I know that's not very 1921, but it gets me a bit closer to the car's original bare bones configuration and removes 1/3 of a horsepower of parasitic load in the process.

I LOVE driving this thing. Lots of conversations with strangers. It's absolutely the slowest thing on the road and yet, somehow, people seem to love it.

[Norman Kling]

Do you still have the Ruckstell? If so, the left side has a large ball bearing and the gears and axle should not move toward that direction. If it is a standard rear axle, you could have a bad thrust washer. If you jack up both rear wheels, with the parking brake off, try pulling in and out on the wheels. If they don't have noticeable end play, your rear end is probably OK. If so you either need the shim or a new axle shaft. if you are running Rocky Mountain brakes, the parking brake drum will be pushed in toward the backing plate by the thickness of the Rocky drum, so you would need the shim or a longer axle shaft. I have a 22 Roadster with some of the same features as you have except it still has the magneto and I have installed a new coil ring in it so it runs well on either battery or better on Magneto. It has been in two parades this year. One was July 4 in Coronado. The other was later in July in Pine Valley. We took the 26 Touring out to Borrego Springs last spring for a few days.
Anyway, sounds like you are coming right along on the car. As we get older it is easier to start with a starter anyway and since that year was an option, it is not incorrect to have one and a generator too. Maybe we will see you. San Diego club is planning a tour next spring to Palm Springs and I think one of the stops is Cathedral City. And in 2024 we are planning a national tour from Secuan Reservation East of San Diego. One of the day trips will be to Julian, and another to Campo. Don't know whether all the day trips have been selected yet. But I know that those two locations are being discussed.
Norm

[jamlip]

Thanks Norm. I'd like to get the car out so I'll keep an eye on those events.

The shim is packing-out the tapered part of the axel because the hub has worn so much that, if you remove the shim and tighten the axel retaining nut, it binds the brake drum internals together. It's a cheap fix, but it's not a good one because the wheel runs way out of true on the axle. Time to get a new hub. I'm good to repair some stuff (like the exhaust) but not this.

[jamlip]

Last update, so I don't forever bump this dead horse to the top of the list.

New tires, and loose spokes shimmed tight with the amazingly kind loan of a spoke jack by MTFCA member Ron Horton.





https://imgur.com/JV2HBoW

... and then, the goal I was aiming for when I bought the car...



Christmas light tour with family and friends around the local area (in the background is my neighbor's fire truck).

Car runs great. Thanks for all your advice getting this one back in circulation.

Now to get some proper miles in.

[Scott_Conger]

James

this post made my day

thank you

[Steve Jelf]

Now to get some proper miles in.

Fortunately there are roads that will get you to Joshua Tree and the Mojave beyond without resorting to interstates. The desert in spring is great for exploring.

That was quick work, getting the car ready to roll in less than two months.

If those running board cans are the display-only type, I'd suggest getting a functional spare fuel container of some kind. With no fuel gauge but a stick, it's easy to run out. Since running out of gas a block from home, I never leave without my running board cans, and they have saved me an unscheduled long walk more than once.