Horn will not fit inside 1926 Coupe hood after installing a water pump

[BarnesvilleT]

Sprucing up an older engine and am putting a water pump on it. There are threaded holes to mount the horn bracket but when I mount the horn it is
now not inside of the hood. Does anyone have any suggestions or photos of how they overcame this problem. I will probably figure something out but
was curious to see what others came up with. I did find an old thread but now cannot locate it through the search.

Bill

[Kerry]

The horn would be the least of your problems if you have to fit a water pump.

[speedytinc]

The horn would be the least of your problems if you have to fit a water pump.

An added water pump is a possible patch for a faulty cooling system.
Its not an up grade.

[kmatt2]

On my 1926 Coupe that has a water pump the battery horn is mounted to the radiator support rod. It works ok for now.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

William,

Can you show us a picture of the arrangement you've got?

[BarnesvilleT]

Hey Jerry,
At work but will take a photo when I get home and post it.

[Scott_Conger]

Oh, the shame! The horror! A waterpump! That no one asked about in his posting!

Odd frequently that those who often piss and moan the loudest over the cost of a new radiator are the first to condemn a man for solving a $1100 radiator problem with a $100 water pump...

All 4 of my T's came with pumps...they all came off. And after driving them, 2 pumps stayed off and 2 pumps went back on. The two with pumps have been driven for many many thousands of miles with no problems. I suppose I am a lesser man for it if I am to believe what I read on the forum. A lesser man with $2200 extra dollars in his pocket.

[TRDxB2]

Hard to suggest without knowing what things look like (what horn, water pump, etc). Just mount on passenger side

[Craig Leach]

Wow 2 rebukes of water pumps in 8 minutes. Is that a record? The Model T came out with a water pump. Henry figured out if he reduced
the compression, increased the water capacity, taking away 2-3 horsepower he could reduce the cost of manufacturing the car. At least
half of T owner's have spent the last 114 years trying to get that horsepower back by raising the compression which makes the engine run
hotter than it should.
Personally the thing that attracted me to Model T's was they where simple & inexpensive. That's not working out so well now days.
Craig.

" It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble, it's what we know that ain't so" Will Rogers

[Been Here Before]

Ignore the critics. I have a 1922 coupe that has a very clean cooling system. Matter fact I give the block and radiator an enema every two years...and I use a water pump that has been on the car for at least 50 years. No problems.

Remember the inventor of the automobile Henry Ford originally had a water pump on his first few Model Ts. He removed the water pump, to save money, and so he could make more money.

Remember too, the model T is not the only early car to use thermosiphon, even the Farmal A uses thermosiphon. Too, at the time of the Model T other cars used water pumps with no ill effects to car or owner.

Use the water pump and make your mates go nuts.

[Allan]

Scott, if you walk around with $2000 in your pockets, it would be wise not to advertise the fact on this forum. Who knows where it may lead?

Allan from down under.

[NoelChico]

I'm betting that Scott could walk around his unincorporated home-town with $2000 in his pocket a lot safer than someone in California could with $200 in their pocket. It's likely all his neighbors within 10 miles know each other, their hobbies, recognize their cars, and watch his home when he's not home. BTW, I'm also betting a majority are armed. Robbers had better stay clear.

[Scott_Conger]

Dr. C

correct on all counts!

As they say, "When you need help, the Sheriff is only a phone call and a 45 minute drive away"

[Burger in Spokane]

Truth is, 26's are just Model A's, so the water pump is a moot point.
Best to just haul that hulk down to the dump and set it on fire. A new
KIA electric vehicle is far more efficient, and that is the only thing that
really matters. You're welcome.

[Model T Ron]

Funny thing is my Model A with a water pump will boil over in 90 plus degree heat. My 1915 Touring without a water pump has never boiled over regardless of how hot it is outside.....the car also has a high compression head. It makes me question what cooling system was a better design???

[jiminbartow]

It is pretty easy to make a horn bracket out of 1/8” x 1” steel flat bar to position the horn atop the engine attached to two head bolts on the passenger side of the engine next to the coil box. There is only one 90 degree bend needed using a butane torch to heat the steel where the bend is to be made and the sharp bend made with the help of a heavy vice and heavy mawl. Jim Patrick

[ModelTWoods]

Prior to 26, all T horns mounted with a bracket to the left of the cylinder head, away from the water inlet. In 26, when the coil box was located in that space, the horn had to be relocated and a new bracket was made to locate the horn using the two bolts holding the water inlet to the left side of the motor. Since NO T ever came from the factory with a water pump, the bracket was made to fit around the water inlet casting and NOT the casting of a water pump. When this happened, all side mount water pumps made before 26 would not allow a horn to be mounted to them. Aftermarket manufacturers of water pumps redesigned their castings and pumps with a set of threaded holes to allow the stock 26-27 Ford horn bracket were available. You didn't say if you were trying to use an original Model T vibrator horn or a Model A motor driven horn , or a 6 volt horn off some other make vehicle. Purists would never put a motor driven horn on a T, but owners who don't give a 'squat' about correctness will use anything as at least one of the pictures, above, prove.

[Been Here Before]

What!!

""Since NO T ever came from the factory with a water pump, the bracket was made to fit around the water inlet casting and NOT the casting of a water pump.""

What was that do-hicky on the front of the 1908 Model T?

[TXGOAT2]

The thermosyphon system is not without drawbacks. Under most conditions, the stock T system, if in good condition, is fully adequate. Many variables affect how much increased horsepower the stock system can accomodate. Very few cars are run at maximum HP output for any length of time.
A TT running loaded in hot weather might be an exception. My car can run at sustained speeds of 45 MPH in 105 F heat with no water pump, antifreeze, and a Berg radiator with no indication of boilover or afterboil. A fordor car with 5 passengers under the same conditions might need a water pump.

[John Codman]

Truth is, 26's are just Model A's, so the water pump is a moot point.
Best to just haul that hulk down to the dump and set it on fire. A new
KIA electric vehicle is far more efficient, and that is the only thing that
really matters. You're welcome.

A '26 T has virtually nothing in common with a Model A except the Ford script. I really don't understand this post, or what point the writer is trying to make.

[BarnesvilleT]

Prior to 26, all T horns mounted with a bracket to the left of the cylinder head, away from the water inlet. In 26, when the coil box was located in that space, the horn had to be relocated and a new bracket was made to locate the horn using the two bolts holding the water inlet to the left side of the motor. Since NO T ever came from the factory with a water pump, the bracket was made to fit around the water inlet casting and NOT the casting of a water pump. When this happened, all side mount water pumps made before 26 would not allow a horn to be mounted to them. Aftermarket manufacturers of water pumps redesigned their castings and pumps with a set of threaded holes to allow the stock 26-27 Ford horn bracket were available. You didn't say if you were trying to use an original Model T vibrator horn or a Model A motor driven horn , or a 6 volt horn off some other make vehicle. Purists would never put a motor driven horn on a T, but owners who don't give a 'squat' about correctness will use anything as at least one of the pictures, above, prove.

I did not think this was going to be such a contentious subject so thanks for sticking to the actual question I posted. Who knows, I might just take the water pump off. I do have the threaded holes on the outside of the water pump and the '26 horn bracket bolts right to it. Being a bit new to the T, I was trying to make the horn that came with the car work but you are right it is not a '26 year horn and it does need 6 volts. Too large in diameter and that is why it is in the way of the hood. i tried to search for horn photos to match it but could not find any. I will post a photo of the horn this evening and start my search for the correct one. I does work real good and it is original.
Thanks for the input.

[Been Here Before]

"I really don't understand this post, or what point the writer is trying to make."

This discussion has been going on for a while. Actually for a long time.

To put it in a musical frame of reference - from "Brassed Off"

""[Spoken Interlude: Danny from "Brassed Off"]
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that thermosyphon mattered
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how much water pumps matter""

Some day this whole thing will not matter......

[Dan Hatch]

1926/27 horn

9D84021A-4C1E-4A07-95B2-345AC9F179A8.jpeg (15.2 KiB) Viewed 7504 times

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

"I really don't understand this post, or what point the writer is trying to make."

This discussion has been going on for a while. Actually for a long time.

To put it in a musical frame of reference - from "Brassed Off"

""[Spoken Interlude: Danny from "Brassed Off"]
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that thermosyphon mattered
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how much water pumps matter""

Some day this whole thing will not matter......

Was this silly "off-Broadway" production meant to be helpful in some way that's not obvious?

[Scott_Conger]

William

all one has to do is type "waterpump" and it will bring out 1/2 of the Forum's readers who will promptly deride folks for using a waterpump as a "Band-Aid for a bad radiator". Duly embarrassed by his comeuppance, the original poster will (if he has $1000 or so) go out and by a new radiator.

now all he has to do is type "I just bought a new radiator" and it will bring out the other 1/2 of folks who will deride you for spending so much money on a product that doesn't mirror the original (then insert their favorite bitchy description of what's wrong, here) and how dumb you were to not have the original radiator recored.

now all you have to do is type "where should I have sent my old radiator out to be recored?" and then everyone will tell you to send it to their brother-in-law to be recored for around $1000

see how this game works now? Funfunfun!

If people didn't bitch about such things, they'd have to actually spend time solving a problem.

hopefully, you'll solve your mounting dilemma quickly and easily...you're not the first with this particular problem, I assure you. Good luck.

[BarnesvilleT]

Scott thanks for the kind words. I was surprised that the post would get such a reaction. I just want to get the car on the road and drive it. I can tell a fib or two about what parts are what and get away with it. Here is a photo of the horn that will not work. I found it searching for horn photos. This is exactly what I have and it said it was for a chevy, buick, dodge brothers fit. If it can be verified as to what it came off of I guess I can sell it and get rid of it. It really works well and sounds good.

[RajoRacer]

That's an original Sparton Ahooga horn - they're a great horn & easy to clean & adjust. A stock Model T horn sounds like a sick goose ! You can make your own mounting bracket easy enough - down along the frame towards the front is a good spot - I stay away from mounting brackets that utilize any head bolts.

[BarnesvilleT]

Thanks for the info. Now that I know what it is I will be keeping it now. i will look into mounting it on the frame as well. Do you know
if it was a stock item or after market access.

[Craig Leach]

I think after 2 years of COVID and people trying not to sneeze, cough or spit. If they don't bitch they blow up!
Craig.

"Things ain't what they used to be and never were" Will Rogers

[speedytinc]

Since this subject persists:

Scott, you are the one who jumped too far & too fast about needing a new radiator.

My qoute:
"An added water pump is a possible patch for a faulty cooling system.
Its not an up grade."

No mention of the NEED for a new radiator.

The OP's comment of adding a water pump to "spruce up an old engine"
No mention of a cooling problem.

Briefly my experiences.

Back when I got into the hobby, it was a popular FAD to add a water pump. Didnt matter if one had cooling problems or not, it was just a cool accessory to show off. Little did they know they created more problems with the addition typically. (I sold a lot of thermostat kits.)

Back then, my first T had one, a new bergs. It moved so much water @ speed she ran hot & overflowed. I added a thermostat. Better, but still on the hot side in the summer. A well seasoned T guy suggested I remove it. (the emperor has no clothes realization) No more over heating.
A few years later & some leak repairs, overheating again.
I resigned myself to get a new radiator.
The same wise sage suggested I try rodding it out. Nothing to lose, so I removed the bottom tank & found 2/3 of the tubes blocked. End of my cooling problems. That radiator is still in service 30+ years later.

More recently, my 14 ran hot from day one. I didnt have the nerve to remove the lower tank & it was an original core, so even if cleaned, it would not cool nearly as well as a new one.
I spent hard for a new one. Didnt regret the cost once I started driving it. It runs cool, maybe too cool via motometer readings on the hottest days.
The grief of not dealing with a poor radiator is well worth the money.

I drive my T's hard & long. I want them as trouble free as possible.
You see, I have no problem spending/doing NECESSARY. I dont tolerate barely adequate in my own stuff.

How bout that Marvel Mystery Oil?

Respectfully submitted, John, aka Water pump Heretic.

[speedytinc]

Sorry for the controversy created, I had no idea water pump religion was so strong here.

Back to your horn issue.

Period aftermarket water pumps with the holes drilled to fit a "stock" late horn, typically fit a stock horn.
With the realization that your horn is indeed other, the problem is apparent.
You still may be able to mount your horn in the correct position by using the correct late horn mounting bracket
& changing the horn mounting holes in your horn. Parts vendors sell a stock replacement bracket.

[kmatt2]

This is getting crazy. All William asked was for ideas on mounting his battery horn on his 1926 T that happens to have an added water pump and a horn that doesn’t fit in stock location at water inlet. As I said way towards the top of this thread, my 1926 T Coupe that came to me with a water pump had the battery horn mounted on a home made bracket looped over the radiator support rod, mounted back by firewall and tight enough to not slide or swing. Sorry that I can’t get a picture at this time. William I thank you for your question and I am sorry for the long diatribe’s against Model T water pumps. Have fun getting your Model T back on the road.

[Chris Barker]

I attached mine to the underside of the hood rod, at the rear, facing forward.
(I don't have a water pump, but it seemed a better location than on head studs.)

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Thanks for the info. Now that I know what it is I will be keeping it now. i will look into mounting it on the frame as well. Do you know
if it was a stock item or after market access.

It would have either been an aftermarket accessory or simply "borrowed" from another make & model of car. You mentioned mounting it to the frame. I wouldn't do that for fear of it getting wet or pummeled with road dirt. Best bet is to make a bracket for it that uses a couple of the head bolts on the "carburetor side" of the engine. If you do that, be sure to use longer head bolts in those 2 spots. Sorry for the water pump commotion.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I attached mine to the underside of the hood rod, at the rear, facing forward.
(I don't have a water pump, but it seemed a better location than on head studs.)

Yes, that would work well too, but might be tough to clamp it there firmly enough so it won't swing around on the rod.

[su8pack1]

I just removed the water pump on my 25 roadster and put the horn back to its original location with a new bracket, as the original bracket had been modified to fit on top of the engine.

[TXGOAT2]

I would not want to drill a hole in the frame for any reason.

[jiminbartow]

The original 1926 Model T horn that was supplied at the factory was the goose sounding horn. I had one on my T when I bought it, but I replaced it with a period 6V Klaxon ahoogah horn. Though the Klaxon horn is not original to the Model T, the reaction it gets from folks I honk the Klaxon at while driving it is a much better reaction than the reaction I would get with the goose horn and I too, get a kick out of my Klaxon. Due to old movies, people relate the ahoogah horn with the Model T and are somewhat confused with the goose horn. Jim Patrick

[ModelTWoods]

What!!

""Since NO T ever came from the factory with a water pump, the bracket was made to fit around the water inlet casting and NOT the casting of a water pump.""

What was that do-hicky on the front of the 1908 Model T?

George, Early T's with water pumps constitute way less than 1% of all T's made. I don't even include them with the 14 million plus T's that didn't have them. As far as the "do-hicky on the front of the 1908 Model T", no one I know of has ever tried to mount a horn there. I think there might be interference with the fan , pulleys, and belt. Besides, the original poster does not have a 1908. I hope your corrective post was meant in "jest". Otherwise, "give me a break".

[ModelTWoods]

Prior to 26, all T horns mounted with a bracket to the left of the cylinder head, away from the water inlet. In 26, when the coil box was located in that space, the horn had to be relocated and a new bracket was made to locate the horn using the two bolts holding the water inlet to the left side of the motor. Since NO T ever came from the factory with a water pump, the bracket was made to fit around the water inlet casting and NOT the casting of a water pump. When this happened, all side mount water pumps made before 26 would not allow a horn to be mounted to them. Aftermarket manufacturers of water pumps redesigned their castings and pumps with a set of threaded holes to allow the stock 26-27 Ford horn bracket were available. You didn't say if you were trying to use an original Model T vibrator horn or a Model A motor driven horn , or a 6 volt horn off some other make vehicle. Purists would never put a motor driven horn on a T, but owners who don't give a 'squat' about correctness will use anything as at least one of the pictures, above, prove.

I did not think this was going to be such a contentious subject so thanks for sticking to the actual question I posted. Who knows, I might just take the water pump off. I do have the threaded holes on the outside of the water pump and the '26 horn bracket bolts right to it. Being a bit new to the T, I was trying to make the horn that came with the car work but you are right it is not a '26 year horn and it does need 6 volts. Too large in diameter and that is why it is in the way of the hood. i tried to search for horn photos to match it but could not find any. I will post a photo of the horn this evening and start my search for the correct one. I does work real good and it is original.
Thanks for the input.

William, Since you have the pump made for a 26-27 and it allows the "stock horn and bracket" to be mounted to the pump, AND since seeing your picture of your horn that you were trying to use, I can verify that the horn is your problem. The problem can all be solved by using the correct, original 26-27 T horn and bracket. Some T owners don't like the sound of the original T horn and aren't purists. They have the right to modify their T as they see fit. If they have converted to 12 volts, they could even use a horn off of a 60's Plymouth Roadrunner on it. I, myself, am converting my T which I never plan to have judged, to 12 volts which is probably a bigger sin, but probably less noticeable. If you feel the T needs and would benefit from a side mounted water pump, go ahead and use it. Its your car, do as you wish.

[Original Smith]

You have the wrong waterpump. A waterpump was made with two mounting holes in the side for the 26-7 horn. It allows you to use the standard mounting of the horn and coilbox.

[Harry Lillo]

Hey Original Larry, would it be possible for you to post an image of the correct original
Ford water pump for a '26? I am not sure i have ever seen one?
Harry

[DanTreace]

A few of the water pumps* have correct build for fitting stock 26-27 horn and bracket. Texas T Parts (Birdhaven) 'Leakless' version pump is one, the std. Ford horn fits right on the water inlet pump housing. Photo below is the 'Leakless' pump

horn and water pump.jpeg (65.2 KiB) Viewed 7236 times

Use of a water pump on a T isn't an endorsement by this poster.

[ModelTWoods]

Hey Original Larry, would it be possible for you to post an image of the correct original
Ford water pump for a '26? I am not sure i have ever seen one?
Harry

Harry, I think Larry Smith was referring to the water pumps made by many aftermarket manufacturers for the T's made after the first ones that had water pumps from the factory (1908-09), up to the improved Ford motors made with the coil box mounted to the head bolts. Those pumps had only the two holes using mounting bolts just like the original water inlet. The pumps sold by aftermarket manufacturers for use on improved Fords, had those two non-threaded holes plus two more threaded holes for bolts to attach the stock horn. No pump that I know of was made to accept or mount any horn other than a stock 26-27 horn and bracket.

[TRDxB2]

Making it work

[ModelTWoods]

Making it work

Frank I had thought about mentioning to the original poster that he could use longer studs or bolts with the appropriate length spacers (like one of your pictures, shows) IF he didn't have the later design pump that accommodated a 26-27 horn and bracket. However, when he said what kind of horn he was trying to mount, I didn't mention the "spacer idea". No amount of spacers or the original 26-27 horn bracket is going to a allow a 'Humongous' Model A motor driven horn to be mounted in that location without interference. Its like trying to mount a turbocharger on the exhaust manifold on the other side of the motor.

[RajoRacer]

Terry - the horn shown in the photo surely isn't "humongous" and it isn't a Model A horn - just an accessory Sparton - doesn't appear much bigger than the one Jim in Bartow has mounted on his T.

[ModelTWoods]

Terry - the horn shown in the photo surely isn't "humongous" and it isn't a Model A horn - just an accessory Sparton - doesn't appear much bigger than the one Jim in Bartow has mounted on his T.

Steve, I was being a little factitious When I used the word humongous. I'm not a 100% purist when it comes to restoring, but for me, adding a motor driven horn to a T is a sin, second only to adding a 'Bermuda bell'. To each his own, though.

[TRDxB2]

Scott thanks for the kind words. I was surprised that the post would get such a reaction. I just want to get the car on the road and drive it. I can tell a fib or two about what parts are what and get away with it. Here is a photo of the horn that will not work. I found it searching for horn photos. This is exactly what I have and it said it was for a chevy, buick, dodge brothers fit. If it can be verified as to what it came off of I guess I can sell it and get rid of it. It really works well and sounds good.

Funny Bruce Brakke posted WTB for an Ahooga horn yesterday https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34898

[DanTreace]

Here is another way to mount with a water pump. This Ford electric horn has the '25 and earlier bracket, that is two holes, vertical from one head bolt to one water outlet bolt.

The owner turned the bracket to fit to the cylinder head, with one bracket hole, and used a long strap from the other bracket hole, to another cylinder head bolt.

Very nice way to do it. Once used a single bolt mount bracket, and the weight of the horn caused the bracket to fatigue in the bend, and the horn fell loose.

Whatever way you mount the horn, be sure to accommodate the shake, rattle, and roll of the Ford.

[RajoRacer]

I have both & Aermores on our T's - the more noise the better.

[ModelTWoods]

I have both & Aermores on our T's - the more noise the better.

Steve, Since I'm going 12 volt, I may try to find a 68-70 Plymouth Roadrunner horn. It will sound loud, but more authentic in sound, than a Sparton Klaxon.

[TXGOAT2]

If you mount the horn over the exhaust manifold, it might be a good idea to provide some kind of heat shield for the motor end of the horrn. The upper part of a stock T heat stove might do, or just a piece of sheet metal to deflect heat.

[RajoRacer]

I believe I have one of those on a shelf somewhere around here !

[jiminbartow]

The vintage 1920’s 6V Klaxon in my picture is an 8C. It is a very good quality motorized ahoogah horn. Jim Patrick

[speedytinc]

Thats a good option for a horn. The small size fits better than an A horn. Fits a stock bracket as shown.
The key point to what you seek is a motor driven noise maker as opposed to a vibrating unit.
Easily identified by the can behind the bell about the size of a bendix cover.

[Mikey1968]

Here's my solution where I have an ahooga horn and the stock horn switched with a dual throw switch. Cable clamps with shelf brackets.
Cheers,
Mike

[Mikey1968]

This is the switch that mounts under the dash such that no holes are drilled.