Adapting MODEL ‘A’ transmission to ‘T’ Engine

[Stephen1915]

***FOR THOSE WHO HAVE DONE IT, NOT THE NAYSAYERS… as I am looking for real applicable information. Not speculation.


Pictures are appreciated.


1) • When removing the planetary parts of the ‘T’ transmission, and using just the stock high clutch and a Model A transmission mounted at the rear of the engine, would it be necessary to have a clutch-brake to stop the output shaft from spinning in order to shift from a stop? Or would a T-400 clutch setup give a free enough neutral to where a clutch-brake would not be necessary? Allowing a 1st gear shift from stop without grinding? Also: will the clutch last with this use?

2) • Frontenac sold an aluminum pan/bellhousing combination listed in their 1929 catalog that allowed one to use an ‘A‘ Flywheel-? (I think). ‘A’ Clutch and transmission, with a T engine. My question is were these reproduced? Does anyone have one or know of one? -I Want to buy one!

3) • Model A Flywheel housing, bellhousing, flywheel and transmission bolted to 1926/27 ‘T’ block. Who has done it and how?

Thanks everyone!

[Les Schubert]

A picture of a 4speed behind a T engine

The special pan for installation of the A transmission was reproduced some years ago and I have one I plan to use soon.

There were era versions of “hogsheads” that had sliding gear transmission incorporated and I have two of those.

A automatic behind a T engine!

I have made the pieces to install a Volvo 4 speed behind the regular T engine. The all synchro I believe would be an advantage when dealing with potential clutch drag.

[Les Schubert]

Sorry I double posted the 4 speed.
Here is the automatic!

[Stephen1915]

Les, amazing work as always. Let me know if I could convince you to sell that pan!

[Stephen1915]

1710ED41-75A5-4BE6-808D-6DB21DDB0190.jpeg
Sorry I double posted the 4 speed.
Here is the automatic!

Quite the undertaking.

[TXGOAT2]

Seems like a lot of trouble to retain a T block.... (?)

[Stephen1915]

Seems like a lot of trouble to retain a T block.... (?)

Thanks for being helpful…

[TXGOAT2]

Whatever....

[Kevin Pharis]

My dad ran a Volvo 4 speed behind his Fronty powered speedster for 20+ years. The first 15 years or so was behind the full T trans. The low pedal gear reduction and extra flywheel mass of the T trans would easily strip the teeth off of any gear set in the Volvo. After several gear sets, he pulled all the T guts except for the TH400 clutch. The clutch held up well and the Volvo stopped stripping gears. Without all the T transmission drag the Fronty dramatically changed personality! The clutch had a really short engagement and took careful footwork, but that could have been due to linkage geometry. Shifting was a breeze when rolling, but the neutral was never true. At a stop it was always best to make sure that one of the gears was always engaged, otherwise you would have to jam into 3rd or 4th gear to stop the tail shaft. For an occasionally driven car it wasn’t all that bad

[Harry Lillo]

I believe the reproduced cast aluminum pan that Les referred to was made by Dave Szumowski.
They were nicely made. I had one but sold it to a Forum member in Norway.
Harry

[Les Schubert]

Pat
I do a lot of things just for the creative FUN!
I’ve been doing stuff like this since I was a kid and fortunately I was able to make a career out it.
I will try to post more pictures tomorrow (-35 here this morning, but supposed to be about freezing tomorrow afternoon)

[Scott_Conger]

Les

I'm always impressed by your creativity and ability to do this sort of stuff. Not my thing, but certainly respect the man who can accomplish it.

Thanks for the photos

[TRDxB2]

Old discussions
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/8 ... 1249268761

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more ideas
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/1 ... 1298321144
https://www.museumofamericanspeed.com/a ... ckcar.html

scroll down for more pictures of Art's car https://www.tbucketplans.com/roadster-show-2016/
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Sometimes I hate to see what I find

Art-gerrick-1927-ford.jpg (31.79 KiB) Viewed 3407 times

[Stephen1915]

I have head some people use a 1937-1939 Chevrolet transmission as an auxiliary as well. Cannot find anything on that. Curious to hear of other transmissions using solely the Ford high clutch.

[ModelTWoods]

I appreciate the skill and creativity of anyone on this forum who can cast or machine parts out of creative need. Doesn't the saying go, "Creativity is the mother of invention" or something like that. But in this case, wouldn't just buying and installing a new KC WARFORD, accomplish about the same thing without a lot of extra time and money. Sure, you wouldn't have the close ratio of a Volvo 4 speed, but a Model A trans is not going to be much closer in ratios than a KC WARFORD, plus with an A trans, you won't have synchronization. For me to try to do this, it would be a losing proposition.

[TXGOAT2]

A Model A engine and transmisson with a later model flywheel and clutch would get you close. You'd need some sort of custom pan, an oil pump, and some rear engine mount re-engineering.

My dream swap would involve putting a Ford 60 HP V8 and transmission into a T. I'd think a lightweight cradle could be constructed to set the V8 engine and transmission on the original T motor mounts, setting the engine back a few inches to allow for a thick core radiator in a stock T shell.

[TRDxB2]

I have head some people use a 1937-1939 Chevrolet transmission as an auxiliary as well. Cannot find anything on that. Curious to hear of other transmissions using solely the Ford high clutch.

From a link I posted above

[Dan McEachern]

I have castings available for the rear main seal shown. It only works with an unshortened A crank. The pan is a shortened 4 dip and the bell housing is Model A.

[Tim Rogers]

Stephen- Mr. McEachern just answered your question.

Dan- nice job on that rear main adapter!

[Stephen1915]

Dan, fantastic work, you’ve peaked my interest. Is the seal retainer also acting as a spacer on the flywheel housing? This is the first completed setup I have seen.

How did you seal the rear of the cam area?

Another talking point, would a Model a flywheel (turned down to a loaded T flywheel weight) bolted to a T crank work? I know the crank is shorter, and I’m not even sure the crank flanges are the same, (will check that later today) If they are, could a spacer of the distance needed be used between the flange and flywheel be used? Or would potential problems arise from that?

[Stephen1915]

Just read an original advertisement for the Fronty crankcase in question here. I just noticed they say a “crankshaft extension” is included. That answers my question I suppose, again assuming the flanges are the same. But the question of long term use of a spacer in that area makes one wonder if there would be any issues I’m not thinking of?

[TXGOAT2]

My experience with multi-disc clutches has been limited to motorcycles, old and new, and a Model T. All of them have had drag, more or less, regardless of adjustment, lubricants, technique, etc. A single plate clutch is best for a sliding gear transmission, using the smallest diameter disc that is adequate for the application.

[Les Schubert]

I would seriously consider connecting the T transmission brake to the T clutch mechanism to make getting into low and reverse easier when stopped. The concept was common in the early days of Semi’s , especially prior to synchromesh. I would just use the narrow cotton band that only put enough drag on when the “Clutch (low pedal)” was fully depressed. This would certainly improve the ability of reliable use of a T type clutch with any sliding gear transmission. Especially when the rest of the T transmission has been eliminated.
My Volvo transmission was planned to be used with a T 4 wheel drive conversion. I won’t be proceeding with that project!

[Les Schubert]

The drawback of doing a “Dry type clutch “ configuration is that a “alternative oiling system “ usually required. Certainly on both of the ones I have shown that is the case. The 4 speed has a VW pump on the back of the camshaft. The automatic has a Datsun B210 oil pump in place of the generator.
So using a “accessory transmission “ behind the T ball cap and eliminate the T transmission but incorporate a “clutch brake “ may have some merit.

As usual Lots Of Ways To Skin The Cat!!

[TXGOAT2]

Using a heavy gear oil in the auxilliary and a light oil in the T might make the drag manageable. For less power loss, I'd think an oil pump and a V8 type clutch and flywheel would be best.

[Stephen1915]

Thank you guys! Anwsered most of my questions. Les, I am going to start another thread about the Datsun Pump, I have read every past forum and none show how they are plumbed or oriented. I would like to install one!