Early US Made Cars - What Are They? Can you Tell?

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:21 pm

Can you identify these cars?

The first one out should not be too hard ..... After all it is/was VERY famous and controversial!

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!!EDIT!!

Now that the post has been up for a while, WHERE DID THE PICTURES COME FROM?

The source of these interesting early cars is a book put out by the Smithsonian in 1957 titled 'Automobiles and Motorcycles in the U. S. National Museum'

There is an interesting bit in this book on the early Fords and the T as well.

It can be found on line by searching this in your browser. The book is free to down load: USNMB_2131957_unit

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:56 pm

That's the Selden car, the basis for the patent fight Henry Ford won.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:24 pm

Wasn't Elwood Haynes a very early US auto pioneer?

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:43 pm

Yes, that was the Seldon car.

OK, how about this car? (has a Ford connection too)

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Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Fri Feb 17, 2023 9:54 pm

Adrian,

Roper?

Post by **BobD** » Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:43 pm

Sylvester Roper's Steam Carriage.

Photos below taken at the Henry Ford Museum.

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:40 am

Oh pretty sharp!

Correct, the Roper with the Ford connection being its display in the museum.

OK, the next car is (and any guess at the date?):

Post by **Tony Delbianco** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 1:49 am

I believe that is the 1887 Copeland. Steam powered, built by Lucius D. Copeland. May be the only one made?

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 2:32 am

Bulls eye.
Lucius also built a steam powered bike:

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A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:03 pm

Today's car is:

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Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:22 pm

That looks like Charles E. Duryea in his third and most famous car. It was supposedly the first ever to be equipped with pneumatic tires. 1895

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:43 pm

1985? most likely 1895. If equipped in 1985 it would not be the first equipped.

Norm

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:47 pm

Thanks Norman. 1895, My dyslexia and poor typing overtook me. I have edited it to be correct.

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Sun Feb 19, 2023 3:13 pm

That was indeed the race winning Duryea in Chicago November 28, 1895.

Today's car would be a bit younger, but maybe not as much as you might think ..... :

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Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:08 pm

American LaFrance.

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:09 pm

I think that's a Simplex

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:12 pm

Erik Johnson · Post by **Erik Johnson** » Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:53 pm

Full description and some great pictures in addition to the one already posted by Dan Haynes of the Simplex in question:

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collecti ... mah_843059

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 2:52 am

Ohh you guys are good. Yes indeed its a Simplex from 1912.

Next please:

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:54 am

1903 Winton.

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:57 am

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:02 pm

I believe that is Elwood Haynes (October 14, 1857 – April 13, 1925).
Any relation?
On July 4th 1894, Elwood Haynes successfully tested one-horsepower, one-cylinder vehicle at 6 or 7 mph at Kokomo, IN.

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:08 pm

Yes, Rich, Elwood is a distant cousin. My people on both my father's and mother's side came from Kokomo. Unfortunately the family tree forks before Elwood's birth, so I'm not a descendant. All of his offspring are embarrassingly wealthy from his metallurgy (he invented stainless steel, cobalt steel and Stellite among others). I've been to the Haynes Museum a few times (his former mansion) and the docent asked if I was a relative. I replied in the affirmative and he typed in my grandfather's name and there he was, on the no-account, no-money limb of the family tree...

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:50 am

That was indeed a 1903 Winton, claimed to be the first automobile to trip across the US under its own power.

How about the following car:

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:02 am

That appears to be an early Franklin, around 1903.

Post by **Mark Nunn** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:25 am

I don't know what it is but there are a few versions of this car. These photos and those in my next post were taken in 1900 and 1901 in Omaha, Nebraska.

Post by **Mark Nunn** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:26 am

Next three photos...

Post by **Mark Nunn** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:39 am

Since there are three variations in the Omaha photos, the cars may have been made there. They are not the Omaha brand since that came along 10 or so years later. They could be Bacon, founded by Frank Bacon or Wolsely. That is not related to the more common Wolseley autos.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:56 am

Photos 2, 4, 5, & 6 of the steam cars look to be Locomobiles. The center tiller ones maybe 1900/1901. The side tiller cars would be a bit later. Photos 1 & 3, I don't know. Very hard to identify very early steam cars since a lot of them used the same suppliers for frames & engines.

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:59 am

The first (top) three photos are of a Mobile steamer, the bottom three are Locomobile.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:29 am

photos 4 and 5 were truly "Horseless Carriages" They have the same dash as a buggy we have in our local museum.
Norm

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:49 am

Dan Haynes wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:59 am
The first (top) three photos are of a Mobile steamer, the bottom three are Locomobile.

Even photo #2, with the center tiller?

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:16 pm

The Stanley twins designed their car and, after they began production, sold the operation to two investors; Amzi L. Barber and John Brisben Walker. Barber and Walker began fighting almost immediately after they bought the Stanleys out and split the company with Walker splintering off with "Mobile" and Barber with "Locomobile".

Mobile and Locomobile cars were nearly identical with the exception of the patent leather dash boards; Mobile had a low one covering riders' shins, while Locomobile had a higher one reaching their knees.

Front tillers were seen on cars 1898 & 1899, after 1900 tillers were on the side of the cars.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:42 pm

Thank you Dan!

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:46 pm

What say you all on this steamer? Yes, you can look it up on the web, but don't cheat!

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:07 pm

My last post was indeed an early Franklin, a 1902 model. While you ponder Jerry's post here is another to think upon as well:

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:13 pm

That's a White steamer, 1901 or '02, made in Cleveland, OH.

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 4:04 pm

How about this one (spotted in the TT Accessory post in main forum): No shafts or obvious place to fit them, so not a buggy, I am thinking it is an early car?

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:20 pm

Sharp eyes Adrian ! I'm going to say it's a buggy. I wish resolution was higher to see detail, but there appears to be a fifth wheel under the front spring, and no evidence of a steering mechanism. Absence of shafts or a pole is not an indication it's not horse drawn. Shafts or pole were made to clip to the axle and be removable or interchangeable depending whether the owner was going to drive a pair or a single horse. On the other hand, I have not seen buggies with a "dropped" axle - maybe that's a clue that may identify an early horseless carriage ?? I'm tickled you picked this out of the TT post !

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:36 am

A thought did strike me, this may be the rear end of a buggy, which is why no obvious attachment points for the shafts are there? Well, it is fun to look at see what we can

Yes, it was a White 1901.

How about this one:

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Post by **Tony Delbianco** » Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:15 am

This one is a 1904 Columbia Electric...I'm removing myself from the competition. I think I have the same book as Adrian.

Mark Nunn...Can you tell me where you got the 3 photos in your second post "Next three photos"? If they are available on the internet, I would like to try downloading high resolution copies of them...They are great photos of a Locomobile Steam car...Tony

Post by **Mark Nunn** » Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:58 am

Tony Delbianco wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:15 am
This one is a 1904 Columbia Electric...I'm removing myself from the competition. I think I have the same book as Adrian.

Mark Nunn...Can you tell me where you got the 3 photos in your second post "Next three photos"? If they are available on the internet, I would like to try downloading high resolution copies of them...They are great photos of a Locomobile Steam car...Tony

Tony, I sent you an email with the details.

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:22 pm

Ahhh same book eh

Yes it is a Columbia. This particular car was used by the same owner (a doctor) from new until 1931!

Now for something different:

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A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:26 pm

Yes, this really was a car made in the USA. It is a 'Balzer' from 1894. The radial engine is the thing of note here.

Today's car is:

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Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:33 pm

I believe it's a Knox.

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:12 pm

A Knox it is, from 1899.

Today:

Wayne Sheldon · Post by **Wayne Sheldon** » Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:24 am

Charles Brady King! I believe his 1896 automobile. He was a friend of Henry Ford and beat Henry as the first gasoline powered automobile built and driven in Detroit by about two months (if I recall the details correctly?).

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:38 am

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:24 am
Charles Brady King! I believe his 1896 automobile. He was a friend of Henry Ford and beat Henry as the first gasoline powered automobile built and driven in Detroit by about two months (if I recall the details correctly?).

A replica of the Brady car is in the collections of the Detroit Historical Society.

Here is a video of it, in a parade, in Detroit, in 1956, commemorating the 60th anniversary of the automobile. Of special note, to me anyway, is the 1912 Overland following the Brady car and shown close up at 1:30. I am the current owner that car. I purchased it from the guy shown driving it, (Henry Stubner). I believe the older gent in the rear seat was Claude Cox, founder of Overland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s21gv_aBpY&t=171s

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:15 pm

I mistakenly posted the color photo of this 1899 California-built mystery car on another thread, but meant to put it here.

Factory photo:

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Recent photo of the only known survivor of the make:

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:49 pm

Osen and Hunt Auto Factory, San Jose, 1900.

"William Hunt is seen in the motoring cap and bowtie."

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Mon Feb 27, 2023 6:41 pm

I'm always taken by old factory/shop photos. What a great sign ! Wish we could read all of it - ". . . Don't bother the men "

Osen & Hunt is intriguing ! I wonder how much of their record has survived? The machines on the factory floor don't appear to bear similarity with the present day machine and it's snazzy parasol, but the passenger looks elated !

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:22 am

That is a great workshop picture.

Today's car is:

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Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:13 am

Rich Eagle wins. It is the last known Osen & Hunt and it is in remarkable shape and took surprisingly little to get it running again after nearly a century. Nearly all components of the chassis are still in the original nickel plate. The smiling passenger is, if I remember right, the then-mayor of San Jose, while the driver is none other than Dapper Dan Erceg, better known here for his membership in the Speedster Hall of Fame.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:06 am

I just tuned into this thread...fabulous!

thank you Adrian and others who have contributed

Post by **Mark Nunn** » Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:31 pm

These photos dated 1899 and 1906. They look like the same car. Do I believe the dates?

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:48 pm

No comment on the car Adrian posted ? Or is that also an Osen & Hunt ??

Post by **Mark Nunn** » Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:32 pm

Rich, I had to do a search for that one. It was made in 1899 by Carl Kelsey and Sheldon Timey

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:45 pm

Looks like the same woman in the car posted by Mark Nun, but the clothes are different The Man standing in the white coat in the first picture looks like the man on the left in the second picture. Not sure about the other man or men. Tires mounted in front on second picture. I think it was the same car and same woman but 3 different dates and places.
Norm

Post by **Mark Nunn** » Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:57 pm

The view from this angle should nail down the manufacturer.

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:59 pm

Rich B., Adrian stumped me - I didn't have a clue as to the ID of the tricycle.

Am lovin' the Winton pics, though!

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Tue Feb 28, 2023 6:14 pm

Mark, thanks for identifying the tricycle. Like Dan, I'm also really enjoying the Winton photos. What a "tell", the name "Winton" inscrbed on the tonneau handle !

Thanks for these, I do believe that's the first picture of a rear entrance tonneau Ive ever seen that gives a good feel for scale ! I have never seen one "in real life". Mighty amusing, the sign that says you can go either direction to get to Marlboro ! Kind of the antithesis of "You can't get there from here !"

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:34 pm

Dan Haynes wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:59 pm
Rich B., Adrian stumped me - I didn't have a clue as to the ID of the tricycle.

Am lovin' the Winton pics, though!

It was a "one off" example.

Post by **Mark Nunn** » Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:17 am

Here are a few more of the Winton for Dan. The first is at the Flatiron in NYC.

What is the car on the left?

I thought the aftermarket (?) rear spring snubber was interesting with leather straps.

Erik Johnson · Post by **Erik Johnson** » Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:24 am

As you are probably aware, rubber bumpers mounted above the axle to limit spring movement and prevent the frame from completely bottoming-out wasn't uncommon on brass automobiles. My father's 1910 IHC Model F roadster has them above the rear axle, from the factory. I've also seen them on other cars including a friend's 1912 EMF.

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:14 pm

Wow, some great pictures coming out of the wood work!

My last car was a Kelsey-Tilney from 1899.

And today:

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:22 pm

Looks like a Franklin!

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:18 am

Indeed, a 1902 Franklin.

Heading back to three wheels we have:

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Post by **Craig Leach** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:06 am

1900 Gasmobile Runabout.

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Craig.

A Whiteman · Post by **A Whiteman** » Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:36 pm

The last tricycle is a Long from about 1880.

Now for the source of these interesting early cars: A book put out by the Smithsonian in 1957 titled 'Automobiles and Motorcycles in the U. S. National Museum'

There is an interesting bit in this book on the early Fords and the T as well.

It can be found on line by searching this in your browser. The book is free to down load: USNMB_2131957_unit