My Steering Dampener Idea

[Tonytiger75]

This is a project I've been thinking about for a while.
Allot of the roads where I live are pretty rough so I decided to install one of the steering dampener cylinders on my roadster. It worked well but soon began to leak and whenever I went over a bump the metal tube dust shield on the cylinder would make a crashing or ringing sound... I don't need any more weird sounds to worry about. So I had this old Houdaille type shock kicking around that still works just fine. I made a connecting rod and a clamp to connect it to the tie rod, welded up a bracket to mount the shock to the side of the frame. Someone already tried to tell me "That's just a band aid for bad bushings or misalignment"... Nope my bushings and alignment are just fine, this wouldn't help bad bushings, the only way it can work is if everything else is in good order, if there's any looseness in the system you'll still feel it at the wheel. One reason I know that is because while installing this I found the arm on my Left spindle had worked loose which is why I thought the other cylinder had completely failed, there was no dampening effect. I cleaned tightened and re cottered the spindle arm. Now, no clanging sounds and I can mostly let the wheel go on a straight drive and it almost drives it's self. I'm probably going to make one change by extending the connecting rod to reach all the way over to the passenger side near the clevis so the weight of the clamp isn't vibrating and working up and down near the middle. Actually looking at it again I'm probably going to delete the clamp and make a slightly longer ball joint bolt... whatever it's called... Bolt the stabilizer rod on the opposite side of the clevis where the steering rod connects.

[speedytinc]

There was a recent posting where the use of one of those screen door stabilizers.
What I learned was the extra strain on the tie rod has caused potentially catastrophic front end component failures.
I would think this snubber contraption could create similar failures.
You may have thrown a match into a can of gasoline with this post. We shall see.

[Scott_Conger]

I can mostly let the wheel go on a straight drive and it almost drives it's self.

and when it breaks the tie-rod, it WILL drive itself. Seen it twice and don't need to see it a third time.

Model T tie-rods are not designed to withstand the stresses induced by a dampening system and have been shown to fail after extensive duty cycles. Cars have wrecked and hobbyists have been killed when critical suspension components have failed. It is sobering to see it in real life and my choice is to not add risk on top of the inherent risks already associated with motoring in a 100+ year old car.

my motto is "when you need to be creative, do it on things that aren't apt to kill you"

[speedytinc]

If your T doesnt tend to track straight, check the toe in & caster.
I found for higher speed running additional caster helps keep a T straighter, less squirrely. I have 5/8" on 2 T's.
That's about twice stock spec. Never felt the need for a stabilizer.

[Tonytiger75]

I can mostly let the wheel go on a straight drive and it almost drives it's self.

and when it breaks the tie-rod, it WILL drive itself

seen it twice and don't need to see it a third time

my motto is "when you need to be creative, do it on things that aren't apt to kill you"

The tie rod clamp I made is far superior to the U- bolt clamp that comes with the cylinder you can buy. I made it with 2 pieces of 1/2" steel plate with a 5/8" hole drilled between them on my lathe. 4 5/16-24 bolts holding it together and the pin that connects to the 1/2" swivel joint welded to one side but stepped to bring it closer to center. It can be clamped good and tight but will never deform the tube of the tie rod. I know plenty of people who have the U- bolt clamps on their tie rods, never heard of any of them breaking a tie-rod. This is also an adjustable shock and I have it turned down petty low... It doesn't need a super powerful resistance to do it's job. It's not creating any more stress to the system than I would be if I were constantly adjusting against road conditions.
"when you need to be creative, do it on things that aren't apt to kill you" If the Right Brothers had that philosophy, we wouldn't know their names today.

[Tonytiger75]

If your T doesnt tend to track straight, check the toe in & caster.
I found for higher speed running additional caster helps keep a T straighter, less squirrely. I have 5/8" on 2 T's.
That's about twice stock spec. Never felt the need for a stabilizer.

Everything is set as it should be, I've driven it up to 55 MPH with the old cylinder. It never had an issue going straight without the cylinder It just makes it easier driving straight on some of the rough roads I have to deal with. A dampener would have no effect on tracking or improve performance of worn out parts. This is not intended as a band aid, it only actually works when the steering is in good order. So it actually could be a good indicator for when things are going bad, when you can't feel the dampening anymore something has probably loosened up.

[Tonytiger75]

There was a recent posting where the use of one of those screen door stabilizers.
What I learned was the extra strain on the tie rod has caused potentially catastrophic front end component failures.
I would think this snubber contraption could create similar failures.
You may have thrown a match into a can of gasoline with this post. We shall see.

People can say what they want, they didn't build this and haven't driven with it and I doubt they have the skills to machine the parts I made for this. Objections are merely conjecture. This is no screen door cylinder.

[Tonytiger75]

I can mostly let the wheel go on a straight drive and it almost drives it's self.

and when it breaks the tie-rod, it WILL drive itself. Seen it twice and don't need to see it a third time.

Model T tie-rods are not designed to withstand the stresses induced by a dampening system and have been shown to fail after extensive duty cycles. Cars have wrecked and hobbyists have been killed when critical suspension components have failed. It is sobering to see it in real life and my choice is to not add risk on top of the inherent risks already associated with motoring in a 100+ year old car.

my motto is "when you need to be creative, do it on things that aren't apt to kill you"

If the dampener isn't smoothing out the typical darting of the Model T then You are, which makes for a much more tiring and stressful drive. So there is no real difference in stress to the machine just to the driver. The tie rod can withstand plenty of stress in a Straight line which is why I made everything run close to center of the rod. Most accidents I've seen with Model Ts have been caused by Other modern cars. I've also seen suspension component failure on completely unmodified cars, so what are ya gonna do?

[JTT3]

Tony I doubt anyone is doubting your skill or the material used, to me it’s more about, been there and done that & got the T Shirt too. It’s about having friends, acquaintances or hearing about accidents that have occurred over the years with period accessories or personally manufacturing or improving these parts. What that translates into is folks care about what happens to people in the community & that should be the take away. Be safe & have years & years of happy T ing. Best John

[Scott_Conger]

Tony, I'm glad you're an expert machinist, but I'll dare say that there are a few folks around who can pull off some pretty decent parts themselves...and have. I've just never known any of them to have the brass clackers to suggest that no one could best them at their own game, so congratulations for that one.

With a little research on the forum, you will find pix of tie-rods broken from dampers, and that's not conjecture. As far as stresses involved and the materials you're putting to the test, it appears clear that you are not fully appreciating what you're dealing with, but of course, feel free to believe you're a genius among stooges. You put your invention out there and now you've received some input from your inferiors. At least try to be sympathetic to our shortcomings.

Re-reading, I am understanding that your car darts and is tiring you out...if that is the case, then something is definitely wrong. None of my 4 cars dart or are in any way a hand-full to drive. Darting is usually a function of something binding - typically a tight shackle or a pinched spindle/kingpin and is more commonly found on rebuilt cars than worn-out cars.

FWIW - the input(s) you're receiving are meant in your best interest and the safety of all involved.

[TXGOAT2]

I have a 1927 T roadster on Ford wire wheels with 4.40-4.50 X 21 4 ply Vietnamese tires. I drive it on dirt roads and poor quality pavement and on good roads at speeds up to 50 MPH. It has never
exhibited shimmy or death wobble. It's easy to control under a wide range of road conditions on calm days or windy days with gusty crosswinds of 25-35 MPH at road speeds over 40 MPH. It does not have a steering damper and it does not need one. It has 5:1 steering and a 17" steering wheel. I keep the steering linkage and springs lubricated. I would not care to travel in reverse at high speeds in this car, but when going forward, it is very stable and predictable and does not demand constant steering correction. I run 24 to 28 PSI, cold, in the tires.

[Tonytiger75]

I have a 1927 T roadster on Ford wire wheels with 4.40-4.50 X 21 4 ply Vietnamese tires. I drive it on dirt roads and poor quality pavement and on good roads at speeds up to 50 MPH. It has never
exhibited shimmy or death wobble. It's easy to control under a wide range of road conditions on calm days or windy days with gusty crosswinds of 25-35 MPH at speed road speeds over 40 MPH. It does not have a steering damper and it does not need one. It has 5:1 steering and a 17" steering wheel. I keep the steering linkage and springs lubricated. I would not care to travel in reverse at high speeds in this car, but when going forward, it is very stable and predictable and does not demand constant steering correction. I run 24 to 28 PSI, cold, in the tires.

I have 30x 3.5 clinchers running at 60 PSI they tend to ride allot harder. I've had mine up to 55MPH didn't feel any different than 45. Again the dampener doesn't improve anything if the system isn't in good condition.

[Tonytiger75]

Tony, I'm glad you're an expert machinist, but I'll dare say that there are a few folks around who can pull off some pretty decent parts themselves...and have. I've just never known any of them to have the brass clackers to suggest that no one could best them at their own game, so congratulations for that one.

With a little research on the forum, you will find pix of tie-rods broken from dampers, and that's not conjecture. As far as stresses involved and the materials you're putting to the test, it appears clear that you are not fully appreciating what you're dealing with, but of course, feel free to believe you're a genius among stooges. You put your invention out there and now you've received some input from your inferiors. At least try to be sympathetic to our shortcomings.

Re-reading, I am understanding that your car darts and is tiring you out...if that is the case, then something is definitely wrong. None of my 4 cars dart or are in any way a hand-full to drive. Darting is usually a function of something binding - typically a tight shackle or a pinched spindle/kingpin and is more commonly found on rebuilt cars than worn-out cars.

FWIW - the input(s) you're receiving are meant in your best interest and the safety of all involved.

Not saying there aren't plenty of competent machinist here but I've searched for all these photos of broken tie rods because of steering dampeners and haven't found One. I have found the same guy who doesn't like taking chances telling everyone about all the dangers but I doubt he could single point a thread on a lathe, he probably also thinks the only oil for a Model T Has to be Straight 30W Non Detergent with Henry Ford's signature on the bottle

The darting and tiring out part is because of the road conditions where I live... They're often pretty rough, also I go on allot of rural roads that are crowned pretty high, keeping it straight on those is a workout which was alleviated by installing the commercially available dampener.

I can see why some might have broken tie rods from dampeners...It's not the dampeners it's the U- bolt clamp provided with them that is crap. It's very easy to over tighten them and deform the tube. My clamp is 2 pieces of steel plate with a tie rod sized hole drilled between them .625". I'm also planning now to delete the clamp and connect up to the front side of the clevis where the steering rod connects... turning a new steering rod ball with a longer shoulder and thread on the other end to accommodate my rod end swivels.

[TRDxB2]

There was a recent posting where the use of one of those screen door stabilizers.
What I learned was the extra strain on the tie rod has caused potentially catastrophic front end component failures.
I would think this snubber contraption could create similar failures.
You may have thrown a match into a can of gasoline with this post. We shall see.

The steering dampener (hydraulic steering stabilizer) in the recent posting is not a screen door stabilizer. It is one designed for the intended use, was used on a VW and other cars as well

t dampner.png (63.79 KiB) Viewed 5900 times

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another period correct option - will return the wheel to the neutral position - spring dependent

[TXGOAT2]

"I have 30x 3.5 clinchers running at 60 PSI they tend to ride allot harder. I've had mine up to 55MPH didn't feel any different than 45. Again the dampener doesn't improve anything if the system isn't in good condition."

Running any lower pressure with the clinchers is not an option.

You might enjoy your car more given the poor road conditions if you installed "balloon tires".

Ford wire wheels with 4 ply tires work pretty good on a T, and you have a wider choice of what pressure you run. They're easier to balance, reduce unsprung weight, are easier to keep running true, and easier to service.

I'd definitely want 5:1 steering gears and a 17" steering wheel.

Carrying weight as low as is practical helps, too. A T with a light body can do with one less leaf in the front and rear springs. That gives a little more compliance in the suspension and a slightly lower ride height.

Hydraulic shock absorbers (dampers) at all four corners can increase roll stiffness and help keep the tires in contact with the road. They can be added without destructive modification to the car.

[aDave]

Hi Tony,
Good Luck with your idea.
Although you didn't specifically ask for opinions from the group in your initial post, others (more experienced than I ) have given their opinion of your device. Another respondent wrote that the opinions expressed to you were intended to keep you safe, sound and continuously enjoying this hobby. Please accept my post with your good health in mind.
True, there have been what some in their day might hav been called "daredevils - your reference to Orville and Wilbur, but no one is calling you that - they are just relating some personal experiences in the hope that you are not injured.
One of those who has had a lot of Model T experience had this to share on another thread:

"The damper will keep the steering from sudden jarring. Think about a flexible system of levers that ultimately end at a very stiff, damped union.

The damper is attached to a very unyielding point; the axle. It is also attached to a very flexible lever; the tie rod. Every time the tie rod moves against the damper, because of the angle the damper assumes toward the tie rod, the tie rod is forced to flex as the damper resists it's movement.

Now the practical application: Recently a gentleman drove a T from coast to coast. During his journey, the tie rod cracked at the damper's attachment point. It was discovered by a good samaritan who was in the process of performing other vital work to put the car on the road after an unrelated breakdown. The tie rod was welded. Several days later, the driver broke down near me, with a burned out rod, and I repaired his car, as well. I found the damper attached adjacent to the weld on the tie-rod and was so alarmed at it's effect against it, I strongly urged him to remove it to save the tie rod from breaking again. I did not prevail with that suggestion and the damper remained on the car, as the driver felt better advice he had received, was to keep it in place and that it would carry the day. Several days later the tie rod did indeed break, in half, adjacent to the weld, right at the attachment point, and if not for the fact that he was slowing down entering a town, his trip would have ended permanently. The tie rod was replaced and the damper went where I felt it belonged several days prior. His stated opinion was the car felt as good or better than any time prior when the damper was in place. All of this is captured in photos, emails, and ultimately, the book he wrote about his adventure."


Again, Good Luck with your idea, and I wish you good health. Be careful, though, as that idea has had some unintended results.
Happy Easter,
Dave

[TXGOAT2]

The point has been made repeatedly that a Model T in good condition does not need a steering damper, and is better off without one. It's a valid, proven point. Your car; your choice, but consider that any steering damper will add unsprung weight and will add friction to the system. Under some conditions, it will re-direct normal road forces in ways the steering system and its parts is not designed for. It adds potential failure points to a critical system.

Adding a steering damper that is mounted between the frame and the tie rod might not be a good idea. I'd think it would cause the car to self steer as the axle assembly went through its normal and considerable range of motion relative to the frame as the car went over road irregularities

[Craig Leach]

Hi Tony,
The idea to connect the steering dampener as far to the right is a good idea with the dampener mounted to the frame. Ford did that to
minimise bump steer. I will assume that is why the shock absorber style is mounted to the front axle. I run a panard bar on the front of
my speedster it may not be needed but I feel it makes the car more stable on a fast corner. That may be as important as the function
of the part. As long as a modification dosn't do anything to compromise the function or safety of the car and makes you more comfortable
then it's completely acceptable IMHO. How many times do you see a Saint Christapher hanging from a mirror or a plastic Jesus on the dash.
Technically they obstuct the drivers vision but I don't remember ever hearing of one causing a accident or injury. I for one appreciate the
effort to make something using period parts as opposed to newer technology. I'm concerned that a steering arm was loose and not noticed
until the dampener failed. We need to pay more attention to this stuff. How often do we lube & inspect the hole car? I could go on but the
wife hid my soap box. Everyone be carefull OK.
Craig.

[TXGOAT2]

A conventional steering box will make a T steer much like an A.

[Les Schubert]

Pat
And your post is why I am playing around with making some copies of the era Ross Cam and Lever accessory steering box for my T’s

[TXGOAT2]

"The idea to connect the steering dampener as far to the right is a good idea with the dampener mounted to the frame"...

I believe you'd want to make the link between the Houdaille and the drag link as close to the same length as possible, and have them run at as close to the same angle as possible. I'd think also that you'd want to adjust the Houdaille to a fairly low damping rate to keep a good steering feel and avoid too much torque on the frame rail.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

If the Right Brothers had that philosophy, we wouldn't know their names today.

I guess I haven't heard of the Right Brothers. Who were they?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

If the dampener isn't smoothing out the typical darting of the Model T ...

A typical, well maintained Model T, does not "dart".

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

The steering dampener (hydraulic steering stabilizer) in the recent posting is not a screen door stabilizer. It is one designed for the intended use, was used on a VW and other cars as well
t dampner.png

Frank,

How is it that a stabilizer for a VW, and a bunch of other cars as well, has been "designed for the intended use" as a Model T Ford stabilizer?

[Tonytiger75]

Hi Tony,
Good Luck with your idea.
Although you didn't specifically ask for opinions from the group in your initial post, others (more experienced than I ) have given their opinion of your device. Another respondent wrote that the opinions expressed to you were intended to keep you safe, sound and continuously enjoying this hobby. Please accept my post with your good health in mind.
True, there have been what some in their day might hav been called "daredevils - your reference to Orville and Wilbur, but no one is calling you that - they are just relating some personal experiences in the hope that you are not injured.
One of those who has had a lot of Model T experience had this to share on another thread:

"The damper will keep the steering from sudden jarring. Think about a flexible system of levers that ultimately end at a very stiff, damped union.

The damper is attached to a very unyielding point; the axle. It is also attached to a very flexible lever; the tie rod. Every time the tie rod moves against the damper, because of the angle the damper assumes toward the tie rod, the tie rod is forced to flex as the damper resists it's movement.

Now the practical application: Recently a gentleman drove a T from coast to coast. During his journey, the tie rod cracked at the damper's attachment point. It was discovered by a good samaritan who was in the process of performing other vital work to put the car on the road after an unrelated breakdown. The tie rod was welded. Several days later, the driver broke down near me, with a burned out rod, and I repaired his car, as well. I found the damper attached adjacent to the weld on the tie-rod and was so alarmed at it's effect against it, I strongly urged him to remove it to save the tie rod from breaking again. I did not prevail with that suggestion and the damper remained on the car, as the driver felt better advice he had received, was to keep it in place and that it would carry the day. Several days later the tie rod did indeed break, in half, adjacent to the weld, right at the attachment point, and if not for the fact that he was slowing down entering a town, his trip would have ended permanently. The tie rod was replaced and the damper went where I felt it belonged several days prior. His stated opinion was the car felt as good or better than any time prior when the damper was in place. All of this is captured in photos, emails, and ultimately, the book he wrote about his adventure."


Again, Good Luck with your idea, and I wish you good health. Be careful, though, as that idea has had some unintended results.
Happy Easter,
Dave

The Angle difference between the commercially available damper is one thing I have eliminated. Mine runs directly in line with the tie rod and I have also moved the clamp all the way over to the passenger side for now and made a longer rod to reach it so the weight of the clamp isn't vibrating in the middle of the tie rod. I intend to make a modified ball joint with longer shoulder and threads to go through the clevis attaching the steering rod as normal with the dampener rod on the front of the clevis. The clamp on the other cylinder is also garbage, U bolts against a flat plate... Cheap to make but can deform the tube and create stress fractures if tightened to hard. My clamp is completely different.. 2 half inch plates with a 5/8" tie rod sized hole drilled between them, 4 bolts to clamp it together, It could be tightened till the bolts sheered off and the tube wouldn't be deformed.

The Wright Brothers weren't dare devils, they were scientists who approached aviation from the view of an inherently unstable bicycle controlled by it's rider... Vs everyone else at the time thinking of an inherently Stable Ship.

[Tonytiger75]

The steering dampener (hydraulic steering stabilizer) in the recent posting is not a screen door stabilizer. It is one designed for the intended use, was used on a VW and other cars as well
t dampner.png

Frank,

How is it that a stabilizer for a VW, and a bunch of other cars as well, has been "designed for the intended use" as a Model T Ford stabilizer?

It's designed as a steering stabilizer which can work on any vehicle... VW distributors weren't "Designed" for Model Ts either, but they've been adapted...

[Tonytiger75]

If the dampener isn't smoothing out the typical darting of the Model T ...

A typical, well maintained Model T, does not "dart".

Better tell Lang's... That's how it's advertised.

[Tonytiger75]

"The idea to connect the steering dampener as far to the right is a good idea with the dampener mounted to the frame"...

I believe you'd want to make the link between the Houdaille and the drag link as close to the same length as possible, and have them run at as close to the same angle as possible. I'd think also that you'd want to adjust the Houdaille to a fairly low damping rate to keep a good steering feel and avoid too much torque on the frame rail.

Yes, I have moved the clamp and made a longer rod to reach over to the clevis, I intend to eliminate the clamp and make a new ball joint for the steering rod with longer shoulder and threads so I can attach to the front of the clevis at the same point as the steering rod. I have the shock set pretty soft, it doesn't need much.

[Tonytiger75]

The point has been made repeatedly that a Model T in good condition does not need a steering damper, and is better off without one. It's a valid, proven point. Your car; your choice, but consider that any steering damper will add unsprung weight and will add friction to the system. Under some conditions, it will re-direct normal road forces in ways the steering system and its parts is not designed for. It adds potential failure points to a critical system.

Adding a steering damper that is mounted between the frame and the tie rod might not be a good idea. I'd think it would cause the car to self steer as the axle assembly went through its normal and considerable range of motion relative to the frame as the car went over road irregularities

I have moved the tie rod clamp to about 2" from the clevis on the passenger side, I intend to eliminate the clamp when I have time to make a new ball joint for the steering rod with longer shoulder and threads so I can connect to the exact point as the steering rod but on the front of the clevis. Any suspension height difference is moving 90* to an aprox 4' long control rod with ball joint swivels at either end... No different than the original steering rod, so no likelihood of "self steering"

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

The Right Brothers weren't dare devils, they were scientists who approached aviation from the view of an inherently unstable bicycle controlled by it's rider... Vs everyone else at the time thinking of an inherently Stable Ship.

WRIGHT Brothers...

[Tonytiger75]

"I have 30x 3.5 clinchers running at 60 PSI they tend to ride allot harder. I've had mine up to 55MPH didn't feel any different than 45. Again the dampener doesn't improve anything if the system isn't in good condition."

Running any lower pressure with the clinchers is not an option.

You might enjoy your car more given the poor road conditions if you installed "balloon tires".

Ford wire wheels with 4 ply tires work pretty good on a T, and you have a wider choice of what pressure you run. They're easier to balance, reduce unsprung weight, are easier to keep running true, and easier to service.

I'd definitely want 5:1 steering gears and a 17" steering wheel.

Carrying weight as low as is practical helps, too. A T with a light body can do with one less leaf in the front and rear springs. That gives a little more compliance in the suspension and a slightly lower ride height.

Hydraulic shock absorbers (dampers) at all four corners can increase roll stiffness and help keep the tires in contact with the road. They can be added without destructive modification to the car.

Yes I have thought about switching to balloon tires, they would be more correct for a 25 but then that pesky issue of Money always gets in the way... I don't have enough...Some day... My clinchers have been holding up very well though and i kind of love them after I figured out how to mount them correctly I haven't had a flat on the road in more than 18 years. My one flat several years ago happened in my garage when I parked it after a drive, came back next day to find the right front flat. I had rolled over an upholstery tack that probably fell out of the car from the door or something.

[Tonytiger75]

The Right Brothers weren't dare devils, they were scientists who approached aviation from the view of an inherently unstable bicycle controlled by it's rider... Vs everyone else at the time thinking of an inherently Stable Ship.

WRIGHT Brothers...

Wright... I'm staying up to late

[Barry Loucks]

Jerry, the Right brothers were wheel rights, Left and Right. They had a sister, Wobble, and a cousin Out of Round. Mom was Clincher, Dad was Demountable.
Surely you heard of them

[Henry K. Lee]

Well the Wright brothers did come to a conclusion on not to mount anything on a linear tube as it would cause premature fatigue. The center link is very strong if not restrained or limited to anything other than it's ends. The seam (not welded) on the bottom becomes the relief of twist and vibration in the design. The drag link follows different rules under primary vs secondary forces. Modern vehicles with stabilizers use forged components which are solid so vibrations are minimal with multiple components, radial tires, springs, etc. Also in the forging design process, they use small bends call "deflectors" and flat spots. There are no "Experts" just experience with specialties. No sense in reinventing the wheel or becoming a statistic.

Hank

[Tonytiger75]

This is the clamp I made, now shifted to the right side so it's not bouncing around and working on the middle of the tie rod.
I intend to see about making a longer tie rod yoke ball so I can get rid of the clamp and attach to the front of the tie rod yoke.

[Art M]

If you insist on continuing this project, i recommend examining the use of rubber bushings at the mounting points. They would further reduce the initial impact, much like the bushings on modern shock absorbers and stabilizer bars. Thirty five years ago, I spent a lot of time optimizing vehicle suspensions with bushing and spring rates. The durometer of the rubber has a big influence on the ride and handling of a vehicle.

Soon, someone will be fitting stabilizer bars (sway bars) on the front and rear model t axles.

[TXGOAT2]

You'd probably need a stiffer frame to get much benefit from sway bars. Around 1940, though Ford was still using the transverse spring/cross steering chassis layout, the springs were a lot longer and had longer shackles to allow more flexing. Ford added front sway bars and a front Panhard rod to keep the car controllable. The frames and bodies were also far stiffer. The frame on the T functions much like a third spring.

[Craig Leach]

Wow this has gone off the rails!!!! We seem to have a high oppinion of our oppinion. Some times I wonder how we exist as a group when we
can only dissagree. Maybe that is why some only deal with the model T ford club of facebook??? I was under the idea that the forum was to
exchange ideas & help each other out not to prove who was the smartest or most knowlegeble. Sorry I found out were the wife hid the soap
box.
Craig.

[AdminJeff]

Wow this has gone off the rails!!!! We seem to have a high oppinion of our oppinion. . Sorry I found out were the wife hid the soap
box.
Craig.

VERY Well stated. It's seems like this thread is the purists against the not so pure. Being of "unpure" status, I will add my not so pure $0.03 to all this banter.

I have been running a modest "shock based steering stabilizer" on my T since I bought it 6 odd yrs ago. It was one of the very first things I designed and put on my car. Luckily I hadn't been poisoned by unpure thinking... I just had experience to go on, and my experience driving my T down my driveway was not good. A lot of it had to do with braking with only rear brakes (Rocky's) thus putting more weight on the front end while headed downhill. The resulting effect on the steering geometry was amplified substantially and very unpleasant, bordering on dangerous.

The unit from Langs (and perhaps others) is a an absolute joke and I do NOT recommend it at all. To be fair, I have the perhaps very unfair advantage of previously designing complicated steering mechanisms and power steering retrofit systems for several very high performance Porsche 911 race cars, and can say unequivocally that the modest damper system I put on my T helps immensely, especially when driving downhill on a very steep, long, bumpy road which is how I left my previous house every day. It was brutal driving down that road. And yes, I had meticulously checked all steering geometry with my laser based steering geometry setup, which again, most of you don't have access to. I had also replaced all bushings and gone through and rebuilt the entire steering system. I even replaced the steering shaft and gears with the higher 5:1 ratio instead of the std 4:1.

If properly positioned and supported, there is very little extra "stress" on the components in play and it virtually eliminated the steering wheel jarring when hitting modest bumps. The geometry of the T front suspension is "good enough" in most cases, but in my use case, improvements were well worth the time invested and resulted in a much improved AND safer driver experience.

As always, your mileage will vary considerably.
AdminJeff

[Bryant]

Can anyone see the pictures? I just see a box that says I am unauthorized to see the image.
Bryant

[Allan]

Were the Right brothers cousins of the Righteous Brothers?

Allan from daown under.

[JTT3]

This is the image of Tony’s modification, it does appear to be a substantial mount & nicely done. That said my concerns are not with the workmanship but rather the long term experience within the club of these devices.

[Scott_Conger]

So far, in this thread, I've been told that I'm not up to the machining and design genius of the OP and thus have no right to comment on the damper idea, and that original parts broken by such devices either didn't really happen or at least happen only to stupid people, and not smart ones. Most recently, I and others have been indirectly maligned as being essentially 'mean spirited' for voicing concerns based on experience and eye-witness accounts, and that relaying advice to reconsider or at least be very careful in its execution is why folks migrate to Facebook where only smiley-happy-faced encouraging replies can be found (or so I'm told).

Not so many years ago, a beloved hobbyist was killed due to the failure of an ill-designed period accessory and at the time, it was recognized and loudly voiced that all such devices should not only be removed from cars but DESTROYED...such was the furor and fervor regarding the failure of ONE SINGLE DEVICE. No one has been killed by the multiple known tie rod failures associated with dampers that I am aware of, and so, I expect that is why no such alarm is raised with them. It's a classic case of emotions ruling over facts, I suppose.

If our forum is intended to be a snuggly place where we only sing Kumbaya, do not warn the unsuspecting of hidden dangers, and those with the full experience that a life well lived brings (that used to be called "Wisdom") are summarily dismissed as "old Farts" (regardless of their age), then perhaps it is true that this Forum is indeed not the place to be. Maybe we can call it the "Facebook Effect".

EDITED ADDITION: Not previously mentioned is the effect on other parts when violent upsets from the road are no longer absorbed throughout the entire system (as well as the driver's wrists), and now all subsequent shocks are essentially isolated to just a few parts which now bear the brunt of the beating. The tie rod (bolt) fastening point has an alarmingly small amount of thread as designed and is frequently beaten out on original cars. How much worse will that stress be when it is no longer allowed to be damped out through the steering system and is now totally focused on 1 or 2 relatively flimsy components? When you alter one part of a suspension or steering mechanism, you are altering the entire system and rarely are down-stream effects considered by hobbyists. When these points are considered and alterations are executed with skill and engineering, the results are impressive. There are plenty of examples of well thought out designs within the pages of the Forum. When they are not well engineered, the results can be spectacular, and not in a positive way. Those, too, have been examined in the Forum if one takes the time to look.

I will conclude with the point that all the mean-spirited, Debbie-Downer, unappreciated advice has resulted in the OP moving the linkage point from the center of the flexible tie-rod to a more sturdy location. That's just awful, isn't it?

[TXGOAT2]

I believe a damper device can be safely engineered.

However, I maintain that it is not necessary.



I would suggest installing more compliant tires, lighter wheels, and setting up the entire chassis to the best advantage.

Better riding wheel/tire assemblies (late model Ford wire wheels and 4-ply "balloon" tires) offer better traction and reduce road impact stresses on the entire vehicle while upgrading ride and handling and simplifying tire service and reducing tire expense. Some improvement in accelleration and braking would also accrue from reduced rotating mass at each wheel.

Adding the improved, late design front axle, springs, steering gears, and steering wheel will make a substantial contribution to improved ride and handling.

[TXGOAT2]

I'd put a 1/8" radius at each end of the block where it contacts the tie rod/drag link and chamfer all square corners.

[TXGOAT2]

What I see here is a lot of ideas and information being exchanged, along with some experiences, good and bad.

Personally, I have no issue with any of that.

I don't "do" Facebook or MTV or the Hallmark Channel. I'm probably missing something, perhaps comic relief. However, I can get that at no extra charge by watching MSNBC.

[Ben77]

So far, in this thread, I've been told that I'm not up to the machining and design genius of the OP and thus have no right to comment on the damper idea, and that original parts broken by such devices either didn't really happen or at least happen only to stupid people, and not smart ones. Most recently, I and others have been indirectly maligned as being essentially 'mean spirited' for voicing concerns based on experience and eye-witness accounts, and that relaying advice to reconsider or at least be very careful in its execution is why folks migrate to Facebook where only smiley-happy-faced encouraging replies can be found (or so I'm told).

Not so many years ago, a beloved hobbyist was killed due to the failure of an ill-designed period accessory and at the time, it was recognized and loudly voiced that all such devices should not only be removed from cars but DESTROYED...such was the furor and fervor regarding the failure of ONE SINGLE DEVICE. No one has been killed by the multiple known tie rod failures associated with dampers that I am aware of, and so, I expect that is why no such alarm is raised with them. It's a classic case of emotions ruling over facts, I suppose.

If our forum is intended to be a snuggly place where we only sing Kumbaya, do not warn the unsuspecting of hidden dangers, and those with the full experience that a life well lived brings (that used to be called "Wisdom") are summarily dismissed as "old Farts" (regardless of their age), then perhaps it is true that this Forum is indeed not the place to be. Maybe we can call it the "Facebook Effect".

Sorry for the off-topic, but your post touched me. As a newcomer, I want to believe this is a snuggly place. Despite some toxic answers, I like the OP's project and what advice has been given here. I'm new to this, so I'll happily follow the process.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The teacher from Texas is here. I am a big fan of cars, particularly the Ford Model T. I like to explore the history of technology development by humanity, so I write for https://studymoose.com/free-essays/technology to help students understand this topic better. "Education is preeminently a matter of quality, not amount" - Henry Ford

[speedytinc]

I dont come here to feel "snuggly" I come here for the open, direct exchange of ideas & knowledge. (done respectfully)
The world is already too full of political correctness to not upset all those marshmallow snow flakes that contribute little more than oxygen consumption to society.
We are all better off for the wide variety of experiences from some very talented people who freely spend the time to impart it.
Despite its few flaws, this forum is a valuable resource.

Just my humble opinion.

[TRDxB2]

.................................Jeez!

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

... If our forum is intended to be a snuggly place where we only sing Kumbaya, do not warn the unsuspecting of hidden dangers, and those with the full experience that a life well lived brings (that used to be called "Wisdom") are summarily dismissed as "old Farts" (regardless of their age), then perhaps it is true that this Forum is indeed not the place to be. Maybe we can call it the "Facebook Effect".

Sorry for the off-topic, but your post touched me. As a newcomer, I want to believe this is a snuggly place. Despite some toxic answers, I like the OP's project and what advice has been given here. I'm new to this, so I'll happily follow the process.

What the OP intended to do had some potential safety repercussions. How "snuggly" would it be to say, "isn't that clever", and let those safety concerns slide? Even through his rebuttals, the OP modified his thinking and revised/improved his design. There were no "toxic" answers here, only answers that were driven at protecting the safety of the OP, his passengers, fellow motorists and the hobby in general.

As to your singling out Scott's posting, you'd do very well to pay heed to his wisdom as it has been proven out time & again on this forum. As a newcomer, you may not know that. If his words are more emphatic than "snuggly", it's because his message is an important one and he doesn't mince words when he intends to make a point.

On a personal note, if I read the word "snuggly" once more on this forum I'm gonna choke...

[tdump]

What about the tie rod fails? Is it because the tube is hollow? or old ? or?
Could a solid tie rod be engineered and replace the old 1 and not be damaged by the dampner?