Unrestored 1909 Model T auction ending 6/17/23

[NealW]

I saw this listing recently for an auction in Missouri that among other cars, has this unrestored 1909 Model T listed. Engine S/N 9894.

https://bid.wheelerauctions.com/auction ... s/14799604

[ThreePedalTapDancer]

Now that’s a neat project. However, I’d have to see underneath to see frame, pan, hogshead. It’s missing a lot of hard to find parts like the one piece front axle too. Was it in a fire or stored dry? This would be an in person looksee before putting in a bid. It looks like another 9-10 chassis next to it? This might be a good buy if you can grab both?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Check out lot #74 also! And, the Model N.

[ThreePedalTapDancer]

Yep looks like a separate 09-10 chassis. Look at the one piece spindle front end. Open valve engine too. Bid at 120 bucks!

https://bid.wheelerauctions.com/auction ... s/16099231

[TrentB]

The Model N is intriguing, but somewhat puzzling. It appears that someone converted it to thermo siphon (I wonder how that worked out for them) by removing the water pump and connecting the water pipe directly to the radiator. An original water pump appears to be on the seat, so perhaps someone was thinking about converting it back. What is especially puzzling to me are the round step plates. Only the very first Model Ns had round step plates. Most production Model N Fords had rectangular step plates. Nothing else on the car suggests that it is an early Model N. The front axle is later production (the earliest Model Ns had front radius rods that were attached to the front axle with studs and nuts, not unlike Model T produced before 1919. The front radius rods on later production Model Ns were attached to the front axle with rivets, which is the case on this car.

I should mention as well that the oiler appears to be of the style used on 1907 Model Rs. And of course it has the wrong coil box.

In summary, it is anybody’s guess exactly when this Model N was built.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

An original water pump appears to be on the seat, so perhaps someone was thinking about converting it back.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess

Trent,

I believe that what looks like a water pump is instead patterns and a match plate(?) to cast new ones.

[rnwilliams]

I just stopped by and looked at these cars on the way to Manhattan for the National Tour. That 1910 touring is pretty rough. Missing a lot of correct parts. Don’t know a lot about N’s but it looked pretty nice. Quite a few other model T’s there to sell.

[Hap_Tucker]

I would like any of the cars or trucks from that auction

Note, I think the car advertised as a 1906 Model N Ford probably has a modified or reproduction body. Below is a photo of that cars seat area:

Below is a photo showing Rob's N #3 seat when the upholstery was out. You will notice there is NOT a wooden partition between the bottom cushions or going up the backrest:

N_body_photos_003.jpg (37.2 KiB) Viewed 5234 times

Below you see the very square appearance of how the auction car's seat section fits on top of the platform that holds the seat up off the floor (look on the left side of the photo :

Comparing that to the few other N's I have seen the other N's appear more as shown in the photo below (#312 engine if my notes are correct):

And Trent sometimes the more I look at the photos etc. the more confused I get. The Model N # 5362 sold a few years back see: https://www.bonhams.com/auction/22174/l ... e-no-5362/ also appears to have had a "round step plate" -- beats me? Perhaps Ford was using up the old step plates from the earlier cars? Maybe something else?

Round Step Plate 5362.JPG (56.6 KiB) Viewed 5234 times

I believe the bulk of the car will make a nice Model N Runabout. Reproduction bodies used to be available and may still be. And I believe the drawings for the 1907 and later Model N Runabouts (not the earlier 1906 bodies that were a little different) are available from the Benson Ford Archives.

Whoever wins that lot -- the Model N -- hopefully will join the Early Ford Registry.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

[Mike Lebsack-Iowa]

I attended the auction yesterday. Incredible amount of NOS Ford items including full sets of fenders still in the Ford shipping crates, predominantly Model A and 32 Ford. Very well attended. The 1909 car did have an early block, September 1909 I believe. It had a 2 piece pan and later hogshead. Spindles were later 2 piece. Rear axle was later 6 rivet that appears to have braze or welded rivets on at least one half. Had one piece drive shaft. 1915 coilbox I recall. 1914 steering column. Aluminum body seemed pretty sound. Active bidding brought $19k.
The other early chassis was probably the better deal. Had engine number in the 20,000 range. Had correct nice one piece pan, correct hogshead, had 12 rivet clamshell but I think it was a one piece drive shaft and correct radius rods. Had correct front axle and spindles. Steering column not on chassis but I think there was. 1911 or 12 column laying near by. Brought 18K in very active bidding. Both engines were not stuck.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

How much did the Model N bring?

[Mike Lebsack-Iowa]

Model N had a few very active bidders and sold for $27K.

[Mike Lebsack-Iowa]

There was a pattern that looked like an N waterpump laying on the seat as mentioned before. Hood was off car but the car and hood looked pretty sound. I am no authority but seemed like a nice car at a decent price for an N.

[KWTownsend]

Mike-
Any pics?

[Mike Lebsack-Iowa]

Sorry, no pictures, my hands were full of hard to find parts I guess. Herb Iffrig was there, he may have taken some.

[rnwilliams]

Does #9894 August 30, 1909 not make that a 1910 touring. There were very few 1910 parts on it. I was really surprised with what it brought.

[Mike Lebsack-Iowa]

In my opinion, you kind of needed to buy both packages but $37k put it out of the realm of reason when you consider what you “might” find in the end. I am aware of two other early open valve T projects that are much more complete, correct, and sorted out at a price substantially less than this combo. For the folks that sold the cars I feel they did well overall for some pretty nice original automobiles.

[Hap_Tucker]

For Mike,

Thank you for the updates!

For Ricky,

Summary: According to Bruce McCalley, "Ford referred to the cars built after August 1, 1909 as “1910” cars but common usage today is to call the cars built within calendar year 1909 “1909” models."

That is similar to when the Ford Mustang was first introduce and was sold in Apr 1964. New owners called them 1965 Mustangs. But collectors today often call them 1964 1/2 Mustangs.

Additional details:

From Bruce McCalley's On Line Encyclopedia at: https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1909.htm he has:

ENGINE SERIAL NUMBERS:1 to 309, calendar year 1908; 310 to 14,161, calendar year 1909.

MODEL YEAR DATES: October 1908 to July 31, 1909. (Ford called the cars built after July 31 “1910 models.”)

But under the 1910 listing at: https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1910.htm Bruce wrote:

MODEL YEAR DATES: August 1, 1909 to November 1910, approximately.

Note: Ford referred to the cars built after August 1, 1909 as “1910” cars but common usage today is to call the cars built within calendar year 1909 “1909” models.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

[rnwilliams]

Thank you Hap.
The family was very nice to meet. I glad they did well.

[Rich Eagle]

It would be wonderful to see some nice photos. Maybe the new owners will show some. I enjoyed what I saw and hear of them here. Thanks for all the input.
Rich

[Herb Iffrig]

I was at the auction on Saturday. The cars were as Mike said. The Model N was serial number 76. The number was stamped with the correct looking font for the numbers, but it was under the front inspection hole of the engine. If I remember right, I have seen others under the rear inspection hole cover. The car with the 1909 block was an aluminum touring body. The body was dilapidated but rebuildable. There were a few spots where corrosion had eaten through the aluminum panels.
I was glad I went. I got to see a lot of neat things and hang out with some friends I don't see everyday.

Herb

[frontyboy]

It appears the aluminum body 09 is on the way to Ray Wells for wood work.

just sayin'

frontyboy

[Rich Eagle]

That is nice to hear. As I said, it would be nice to see more good pictures.
Rich