1915 T - Low Power - Suggestions Needed

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:08 pm

Hi All,

New to the forums and looking for some advice

My grandfather has a 1915 T and it's been not been running very well at all (low power)..... in low gear we can get 8-10mph and *if* it we can get it into high it tops out at 18mph (full throttle and between 3/4 to full advance). Mild hill climbing is near impossible.

We are in the East of the UK ..... So no real hills to speak of.

So far we have checked :

* Coils are producing a good spark on a 12v battery
* Magnetio running improves things slightly
* Followed the guides around setting the timer at "just passed TDC" and advanced fully back on the controls
* Cleaned the fuel lines and sediment bulb / filter
* Cleaned the carburettor (Holly G) and fitted the composite float, no leaks

We are a bit of a loss, however as we attempted to fix and drive it more (in reality it's only done like 20miles this year) we have noticed it's smoking a lot more.

I brought a cheap compression tester to get an idea of how the valves / rings are holding up as I'm assuming at least one cylinder has low compression.

Main questions really are

- Does anyone have any advice on other things to look at ?
- What's the minimum passable compression for these (we don't want to drive far or fast, but need it reliable)
- I have seen that you can get aluminium pistons and hardened valve seats .... In the event of a rebuild are these recommended? (Again this car may do like 100-200 miles a year... So not many)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 4:20 pm

Are you sure all four cylinders are firing? Running on two or three cylinders certainly gives you reduced power. Do the screwdriver test. With the engine running, ground out each spark plug in order. If you ground a plug and it slows the engine, that cylinder is firing. If you ground a plug and it makes no difference in how the engine is running, that one is dead. A dead cylinder can be caused by a mechanical problem, but for me it has most often been in the ignition system. If you do find a dead cylinder, move its coil to another position in the box. If the problem follows the coil, that coil is your problem. If not, the coils are working at least well enough to fire the plugs. Other ignition problems can be a bad spark plug, a bad plug wire, or a wire loose somewhere.

Good compression in a Model T is 50 psi. 45 isn't bad. When you get down around 30 your engine is tired and needs work, especially if all the compression tests are not pretty close together. The closer the numbers are together, the better.

This may be a silly question, but are you advancing the timing after starting the car?

This may or may not be part of your problem, but it never hurts to check: https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:04 pm

So I think I have ruled out the ignition system

I followed that guide at 1st to re time the engine and didn't get many gains in terms of power, since then I have used the "straw in #1 cylinder to get to TDC on compression" method. Both end up in around the same.

We have moved the coils around and ensured that each spark plug is making a solid spark by popping them out and leaning them against a head bolt (all made a very solid spark on 12v)

I have also made a 3D printed JIG to test the coil boxes with a plug while outside the engine, used this to adjust the gaps on the boxes to get a decent result.

Grounding the plugs does make a difference on each cylinder however 1 and 4 make less of a difference (these ones also seem to have oil in the combustion chamber)

I'm guessing when I pressure test number 1 and 4 will be low

Post by **Pat Branigan Wisc** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 7:13 pm

A chance a nest in the muffler?

Post by **Humblej** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 7:30 pm

Shane, there is no way you can adjust the coils the way you did and expect any kind of improvement, and unfortunatly, you most likely made it worse. If the coils were not the problem before, they are now, plus whatever the original problem is too.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 7:59 pm

Unfortunately true.

The good news is that the process of elimination now has a solid and necessary place to start.

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:07 pm

One needs to use a device such as this in order to properly diagnose and adjust a coil box. Seek one out and you'll be back on the road quickly. Adjusting by eye/seat of pants intuition rarely successful.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:44 pm

A spark plug may fire every time outside the engine, but fire irregularly or not at all in the engine due to the effects of compression.

Fouling at # 1 and # 4 cylinder may indicate too much oil in the crankcase.
Be certain that the oil level is adequate, but not excessive.

Ignition problems may be the cause of the fouling. The coils can emit very impressive sparks and still be so badly out of adjustment that the engine will barely run.

An original type timer can be worn excessively or gummed up with old oil. Either condition will cause issues, which may not show up when testing at low speeds. Any kind of timer is subject to wear or oil fouling or other issues that will cause problems, especially when the engine is at operating speeds and loads.

Have you tried putting the car in "neutral", and then, with ignition OFF, try cranking the engine with the hand crank and feeling for compression? You should get two distinct compression events on each revolution of the engine, and they should cause about the same resistance to turning the crank. Two full revolutions will put each of the cylinders under compression.

Model Ts do not like thick or dirty oil. A 10W30 detergent oil will usually give good results in summer weather.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:52 pm

Oil smoke at the exhaust may be due to excessively high oil level, or stuck rings, or the engine being out of tune such that unburned fuel and oil accumulate in the exhaust manifold and smoke when the manifold gets hot. An overly rich fuel mixture due to carburetor issues or maladjustement can contribute to poor performance and excess smoke and fouled plugs.

Old, stale gasoline can cause a wide variety of problems that can mimic all sorts of mechanical, ignition, and carburetor problems.

Sticking valves can cause lots of problems. Stale fuel and thick, dirty oil can promote valve sticking as can rust or weak valve springs.

Bruce Compton · Post by **Bruce Compton** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:28 pm

Read Pat's posts again, lots of good advice. My guess is either a worn out timer, or a clogged exhaust system, assuming that the carb adjusts properly.

MKossor · Post by **MKossor** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:51 pm

One needs to use a device such as this in order to properly diagnose and adjust a coil box.

Adjusting coils by measuring average coil current as an indirect approximation of coil dwell time to fire spark was certainly a marked improvement over adjusting coils by sight or ear.

Today, however, modern electronics permits all 4 coils to be properly adjusted for equal and consistent dwell time to fire spark by actually measuring coil dwell time to fire spark. More information available here: www.modeltecct.com

Proper ignition timing is essential for smooth, optimal Model T engine performance

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 11:53 pm

Whether coils out of adjustment are the cause of your problem or not, I would have them checked and adjusted by a pro. Tuckett Brothers are only about 125 miles from you.

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:40 am

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 09, 2023 11:53 pm
Whether coils out of adjustment are the cause of your problem or not, I would have them checked and adjusted by a pro. Tuckett Brothers are only about 125 miles from you.

It actually went to them (the full car) about 2 years ago and they gave it a once over and it was still running pretty bad when we got it back / couldn't exceed 10mph in low gear on flat ground

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:51 am

Assuming I did make things worse with the coils, what's the best way (from home) to set the gaps to something that will work ?

I'll check the exhaust manifold this week

Will do a compression at the same time to rule that out

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:00 am

The obvious seemed to have been missed, if Tuckett's didn't get it running better and still an old cast iron piston engine, then it's just plumb wore out.

Post by **speedytinc** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 8:19 am

Do the compression test.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 8:25 am

...what's the best way (from home) to set the gaps to something that will work ?

Not only for this, but for maintaining a T in general, you should have the MTFCA Electrical System book and the other books in the series (Engine, Transmission, Axles, etc.) They tell you what to do in greater detail than you will get here or elsewhere online.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 8:42 am

10 MPH is about top speed in low, and there is rarely any need to go that fast in low gear.

The car should run 35 to 40 MPH in high, or more, on level ground.

It would take a very long time to wear a Model T out if driving only 100-200 miles a year. Engines do not wear when sitting in storage.

I would expect to find that this car has issues not related to wear.

Note that a Model T in excellent condition and perfect tune can be made to run very poorly simply by attempting to adjust the coils by ear.

The first thing I'd do with this car is to have the coils checked and adjusted properly.
Them make sure the timer and related wiring is in good order, and make certain that the coil box is also in good order. Coil boxes can develop issues that are not readily apparent.
Make certain that the fuel system is clean and supplied with fresh fuel. Be certain that the fuel tank cap is vented properly.
Spark plugs need to be clean and properly gapped. (Spark plugs do wear out. Consider replacing them)

Spark plug high tension cables can leak and short out, even if they look good.
Arrange the high tension plug cables so that they do not touch one another or anything else, so far as is possible.

The carburetor adjustment and spark control lever are provided to be used. Be sure you know how and when to use them correctly.

Even a well worn engine can usually be made to perform fairly well. Don't be too eager to tear into the engine before making certain that it is necessary.

Clutch and brake linkage adjustments are critical to proper vehicle performance, as are transmission band adjustments.
Be sure that these adjustments are within specification.

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:15 am

Thanks for the suggestions I'll get more resources to test the coil boxes (or send them away to get looked at)

We checked the exhaust manifold this morning and can't see any blockages

Also did compression tests :

1 : 48psi (loads of oil pooling on top of the piston)
2 : 35psi (45psi with oil added via spark plug)
3 : 30psi (no change with adding oil)
4 : 30psi (40psi with oil added via spark plug)

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:27 am

How much oil did you add?
It's best to add no more than a small amount, about half a tablespoon, and add it to each cylinder in turn with the piston just past top center on the power stroke. Crank the engine a couple of rounds inmediatley after adding the oil, then test that cylinder for compression with the throttle open. Crank the engine several rounds and record the highest reading.

Adding too much oil can give a false result by occupying clearance volume, and adding oil with a valve open can allow some oil to exit via the valve and not reach the piston and bore.

You can get a good idea of the compression by hand cranking the engine and feeling the resistance offered by each cylinder as it goes through the compression stroke.

Make a note of the firing order to determine which cylinders feel weak. Begin with # 1 coming up on compression and count them off as you crank. Listen for hissing sounds at the oil filler opening, the carburetor, and the exhaust. Such sounds can indicate a leaking valve or leaky rings. Having an able assistant is very helpful.

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 12:07 pm

I added about 10ml to each, but like I said number 1 already had way more than that sitting on top.

Testing was done with the throttle fully open, checked each one three times (did 5 cranks on each test)

Hand cranking with the plugs in does indeed feel uneven (1 is needs more strength than the rest)

I didn't think to listen for leaking air through the oil filler.... Will try that one later this week.

But it looks like we will be sending the engine to a local ish company who has an engineer who specializes in model a and model t.

Some more history of the car I got from my grandfather

- it was imported from Texas about 14 years ago
- the gearbox / band arrangement / clutch where all rebuilt as they had been sitting with water ingress for a while
- magneto was refurbished
- the engine was never rebuilt, just cleaned (I think this is a key point)
- exhaust manifold was a refurbished part
- radiator was refurbished / re cored 2 years ago
- coils are "new" 2 year olds modern replacement parts
- we rebuilt the carb and cleaned the flue system about 3 weeks ago
- bands where replaced about 18months ago (hardly driven since)

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:32 pm

If you get the coils adjusted properly and the ignition system in order, you may find that this engine runs better the farther you drive it.

The trick is to get it to run on all four cylinders, then drive it on the open road at moderate speeds for dozens of miles, keeping a close check on water and oil supplies.

If it is suffering from stuck rings, carbon deposits, stuck or sticky valves, etc, any or all of which is a distinct possibility, driving it will often clear such problems up. If it does not, driving it will usually give some indication of what's amiss and how to go about correcting it. As mentioned, many well-worn engines are capable of giving good service, and besides that, your engine may not be significantly worn.

Post by **John Biggs** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:50 pm

I suggest you contact Richard at T Service who are based in Weston-on-the-Green in Oxfordshire.

They have a website ( https://www.tservice.co.uk/ ) and a facebook page.

They look after all my early Fords from 1904 to 1915 and have the highest standards.

Give Richard a call. 01869 351006

Regards

John

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:54 pm

John Biggs wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:50 pm
I suggest you contact Richard at T Service who are based in Weston-on-the-Green in Oxfordshire.

They have a website ( https://www.tservice.co.uk/ ) and a facebook page.

They look after all my early Fords from 1904 to 1915 and have the highest standards.

Give Richard a call. 01869 351006

Regards

John

Hah we contacted them today, unfortunately they where unable to work on this one (too much on at the moment) but they pointed us in the direction of https://www.belcherengineeringltd.co.uk/

They seem good and a bonus not that far from us

Post by **Moxie26** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:59 pm

You asked about initial point gap... That would be
O.030" to 0.032". between vibrator point and cushion spring point in closed position.... Cushion spring gap from bridge ...0.010" - 0.015" .... Necessary tension on the cushion spring and the vibrator spring need to be set physically according to electrical values. .... Only then can you accurately adjust all four coils to fire consistently.

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:04 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:32 pm
If you get the coils adjusted properly and the ignition system in order, you may find that this engine runs better the farther you drive it.

The trick is to get it to run on all four cylinders, then drive it on the open road at moderate speeds for dozens of miles, keeping a close check on water and oil supplies.

If it is suffering from stuck rings, carbon deposits, stuck or sticky valves, etc, any or all of which is a distinct possibility, driving it will often clear such problems up. If it does not, driving it will usually give some indication of what's amiss and how to go about correcting it. As mentioned, many well-worn engines are capable of giving good service, and besides that, your engine may not be significantly worn.

Issue is it's been to a specialist recently (they said it was OK as long as you didn't drive it far)

We have tried to do some short 10mile trips but each one ends in the car limping home in low gear as the car seems to just lack power to run on high gear on anything other than flat.

I'm going to go over some more of the suggestions here and see if I can improve it.

But it will probably end up with the engine going to be looked at and tested

Post by **JTT3** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:06 pm

If you fully close the needle on your carburetor and then open it up how many full turns do you set it at for cranking & running? Have you inspected the Venturi for any cracks?
Not an often event but I do agree with Pat on the 10 mph in low, I bet the motor & transmission are screaming.

Post by **John kuehn** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:25 pm

WHEN THE CAR IS RUNNING IN NEUTRAL IS THE ENGINE RUNNING SMOOTHLY?

Even if the engine is worn out the car ought to run a least 20 MPH on level smooth ground.
Also mentioned is the car is screaming in low and even if it’s smoking as you say it ought to run close to 30 on level smooth ground.

Have you had any experience driving a Model T?
Getting the car up to 10 mph in low gear is close to normal for a T and shifting into high.

A Model T engine is rated at 21 HP when it’s in good condition and that’s the HP rating from the factory.

So the question is have you driven a Model T other than this one to make a comparison too?

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:39 pm

JTT3 wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:06 pm
If you fully close the needle on your carburetor and then open it up how many full turns do you set it at for cranking & running? Have you inspected the Venturi for any cracks?
Not an often event but I do agree with Pat on the 10 mph in low, I bet the motor & transmission are screaming.

Its somewhere between 1 + 1/2 turn and 1 + 3/4 turn, seems to be the best spot (I think that's in line of what's expected of the G carburettor)

When we rebuilt the carb we checked the Venturi (looked good as new)

Issue isn't the speed in low (I know you should really ideally shifting up at less than 10mph) but with fully (or almost fully open) throttle and adjusting advance as the RPM picks up (from half way advanced to fully) the car can only just maintain 18mph on a flat. Any incline at all that quickly drops off and we are back in low.

Post by **Susanne** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:52 pm

BuzzBumbleBee wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:15 am
Thanks for the suggestions I'll get more resources to test the coil boxes (or send them away to get looked at)

We checked the exhaust manifold this morning and can't see any blockages

Also did compression tests :

1 : 48psi (loads of oil pooling on top of the piston)
2 : 35psi (45psi with oil added via spark plug)
3 : 30psi (no change with adding oil)
4 : 30psi (40psi with oil added via spark plug)

Your engine is tired. When you mentioned your compression (above) a lot of red flags show up. 48 PSI on #1 and pooling oil (!!!), 30-35 on 2 and 4 that can be brought up to compression, and #3 that has shot rings (no difference wet or dry). Tthat #1 is so far out of bounds That its saturated with oil as well makes me think it's barely (if at all) firing.

What is your oil level? You want it NO HIGHER than the top petcock, and ideally halfway between the top and bottom petcocks. You want 1 US gallon (4 quarts, or 3 3/4 liters) total.

Anyway, this on top of the induced coil problems... you should invest in an ECCT (or even a hand cranked coil tester) and reset your coils... the only thing "mechanically gapping" your coils will do is frustrate you, as it's not only the gap but the spring tension of your points.

Sorry I'm not closer, else I'd pop ofer and see whats all going on.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:55 pm

Does the engine have a fiber/composite timing gear?

They can fail and cause the cam to get out of time.

Bad insulation in the coil box can cause an otherwise perfect engine to run like a total junkpile.

Problems with coils and/or coil adjustment can do likewise.

A malfunctioning timer can seriously handicap a good engine.

Leaks at the intake manifold gaskets can disrupt performance.

A problem with the fuel supply, such as a pinched line, an added filter or restricted orignal type filter, or a fuel shut off valve that is not working as it should can seriously impair engine performance.

A Model T has no fuel pump, and they have very low fuel delivery pressure at best.
Fuel pressure drops off as the fuel level in the tank diminishes. A full gas tank may improve performance if you have a fuel delivery issue. It's essential the the air vent in the gas tank cap not be obstructed in any way.

Makeshift fuel lines, or original equipment lines, may not work properly due to being improperly routed near sources of heat, such as the exhaust system, or routed in such a way that air can be trapped in them, which can interfere with fuel delivery.

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:59 pm

John kuehn wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:25 pm
WHEN THE CAR IS RUNNING IN NEUTRAL IS THE ENGINE RUNNING SMOOTHLY?

Even if the engine is worn out the car ought to run a least 20 MPH on level smooth ground.
Also mentioned is the car is screaming in low and even if it’s smoking as you say it ought to run close to 30 on level smooth ground.

Have you had any experience driving a Model T?
Getting the car up to 10 mph in low gear is close to normal for a T and shifting into high.

A Model T engine is rated at 21 HP when it’s in good condition and that’s the HP rating from the factory.

So the question is have you driven a Model T other than this one to make a comparison too?

I haven't driven another in ages however my cousin (who is the main driver for most days out) has driven a few more.

My process for driving is :-
1: pull away with 1/2 advance and 1/4 throttle
2: gradually increased throttle to full, and advance as the RPM picks up (pushing advance a little forward maybe to 3/4)
3: when speed is adequate (I'm guessing 8mph ish) push leaver forward
4: as low disengages back off throttle to 1/4 or less and back advance back to 1/2
5: once in high quite quickly increase throttle to keep accelerating

This works to get into high of a flat road, however it tops out at 18mph and any type of incline will unfortunately bring that way down. To the point of needing to shift down.

I know the T needs to be in low to climb real hills, however when I say mild incline I mean ..... Mild

I'll try get a video this weekend of how it's driving

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:08 pm

Susanne wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:52 pm

What is your oil level? You want it NO HIGHER than the top petcock, and ideally halfway between the top and bottom petcocks. You want 1 US gallon (4 quarts, or 3 3/4 liters) total.

The oil is at a level it flows out of the bottom tap and not the top (maybe 1-2 drips from the top of the car has been moved recently)

Ill get hold of a proper coil tester ASAP

We will probably get the cylinders honed ect and new rings (as it should have been done on the original rebuild) it kicks out sooooo much smoke at the moment (not surprised with the amount of oil in #1)

I'll also try and get some pictures of the tops of the pistons

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:10 pm

That sounds like good driving technique.
Your car is not performing as it should.
The question remains: Why isn't it?
If you have compression on all cylinders, which you do, they should all perform, more or less, if everything else is working reasonably well.

I've run many badly worn engines with very high oil consumption that ran nearly as good as new as far as power and driveability.

I would want to make certain what is causing the engine to malfunction severely before trying to do an overhaul.

If you have ignition and or fuel system issues, which have not been ruled out, putting a totally rebuilt engine in the car using the same peripherals will get the same results you are getting now.

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:16 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:55 pm
Does the engine have a fiber/composite timing gear?

They can fail and cause the cam to get out of time.

Bad insulation in the coil box can cause an otherwise perfect engine to run like a total junkpile.

Problems with coils and/or coil adjustment can do likewise.

A malfunctioning timer can seriously handicap a good engine.

Leaks at the intake manifold gaskets can disrupt performance.

A problem with the fuel supply, such as a pinched line, an added filter or restricted orignal type filter, or a fuel shut off valve that is not working as it should can seriously impair engine performance.

A Model T has no fuel pump, and they have very low fuel delivery pressure at best.
Fuel pressure drops off as the fuel level in the tank diminishes. A full gas tank may improve performance if you have a fuel delivery issue. It's essential the the air vent in the gas tank cap not be obstructed in any way.

Makeshift fuel lines, or original equipment lines, may not work properly due to being improperly routed near sources of heat, such as the exhaust system, or routed in such a way that air can be trapped in them, which can interfere with fuel delivery.

Unsure about the timing gear, will have to investigate that one.

The timer is basically new it was replaced when the coils where.

I'll do some more looking at other parts of the ignition system (insulation, cable routing ect)

I am pretty confident that the fuel system is OK, the line runs "down hill" avoiding air locks, carb has been cleaned and rebuilt and cleaned all lines / filters. (Also more fuel in the tank doesn't help performance)

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:29 pm

Your coils are out of adjustment
your compression is good enough for the car to run very nicely but not pull an airstream trailer
your bands were replaced and may well have either tight adjustment or bent out of shape if simply stuffed through the little door on the cover - this can seriously impede running and pose a serious risk of damage if they are binding and are Kevlar
your carburetor has been rebuilt but no mention as to whether or not you really understood how to adjust the fuel level at the jet (and if you are using a repro float, your fuel level is almost certainly wrong
Cast Iron pistons have no oil control ring - oil sizzling and pooling at the spark plug is perfectly normal with an old engine and is only an indication of less-than-perfect threads in the head and the oil that is getting up there is simply poofing out - Champion Spark Plugs were designed (per the manufacturer) to be able to shed oil and avoid premature fouling from oil...does anyone think that old engine is going to heal itself after 100 years and not get oil up into the combustion chamber even if it did when it was new?
your compression will all but certainly come up with running since your car has been dormant so many years

I own a T with low compression, cast iron pistons, oil that poofs out a plug and I wish I could take you for a ride to show you how spectacularly such a car can run

You are far to early in the trouble-shooting phase to even CONSIDER pulling the head. Let me save you the trouble: It's black and oily inside and there are no post-it notes in there that say "this is what's wrong".

FWIW - there are new coils available commercially that are not worth a damn. Maybe you bought them and maybe you did not, but "adjusting" the gap has now knocked them out of adjustment. You will not know their quality, nor their ability to fire with regularity until they are properly tested. I carry a ferro rod and pocket knife and can make a spark, but I cannot reliably make a car run with it.

As far as worrying if a fiber timing gear has gone bad, that's just ridiculous, so don't worry. It either turns and the car runs, or it doesn't turn because it is stripped and consequentially will not run. The car runs, so nothing you've typed indicates a bad timing gear

No one was born knowing this stuff so there is no shame in asking about it but be very choosy as to what advice sounds reasonable and what doesn't. Disclaimer: I am not immune to error, have given my share of less than stellar advice and do not profess otherwise. When I do and it's pointed out, I acknowledge it and offer an apology if it's due.

get the coils looked at
get someone to verify carb setting
renew wiring if it's old/crusty
rebuild the coil box and key switch
verify your band adjustment

the car is going to run, and the more it runs, the better it will run. And with the plug sending out spritz of oil, the car is unlikely going to rust.

good luck and have fun

Post by **JTT3** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:47 pm

Shane you typed something that caught my eye. What fuel filter are you talking about? The stock one made by ford, which is nothing more than a brass or steel bulb screwed into the bottom of the fuel tank that has a fine brass screen inside that the fuel passes through going directly to the carb or do you have additional filters? This is an aside, for the miles the T is driven in a year. I don’t see how you could have so much oil in the #1 cylinder. If it’s the rings the oil wouldn’t accumulate I’d think but you said it had a lot of oil in the cylinder. I’d certainly try to draw as much oil as I could out of #1 with a suction pump or a large syringe with a small tube attached and run down the spark plug hole.

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:55 pm

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:29 pm
get the coils looked at
get someone to verify carb setting
renew wiring if it's old/crusty
rebuild the coil box and key switch
verify your band adjustment

the car is going to run, and the more it runs, the better it will run. And with the plug sending out spritz of oil, the car is unlikely going to rust.

good luck and have fun

I take a hit on the coil adjustment being a bad idea

I'm going to be taking a good look at the ignition system, I'll also set the coils back to what they where when we got them (I added some marks on the screws on the 2 I changed .... Luckily they are still there)

=========

This was my process of setting the carb (please highlight issues):-

1: set the flood to 3/8" when upside down (measured between the carb body and the float on the opposite side to the valve)

2: assemble and put on test jig with fuel

3: observed the level of the fuel at the bottom of the jet "pan" dunno what the real name is

4: I had to adjust the float slightly to ensure the low running tube was just covered by the fuel level

When on the car wound out the needle adjustment by 1+1/2 turns engine started (adjusted out slightly more as it seemed to be running lean when in low gear / high throttle)

========

Also the bands are the type that can't be serviced with the hogs head in place, so that was removed to fit the new ones (I'll verify these as well)

This is a massive learning curve for me (picking up information from my grandparents 70+ ) as I go so all information is appreciated

Post by **frank_w** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:58 pm

Hello,
you already got a lot of good advice, and maybe you already checked that, but still just to make sure: Did you check valve clearance..?
Regards,
Frank

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:59 pm

JTT3 wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:47 pm
Shane you typed something that caught my eye. What fuel filter are you talking about? The stock one made by ford, which is nothing more than a brass or steel bulb screwed into the bottom of the fuel tank that has a fine brass screen inside that the fuel passes through going directly to the carb or do you have additional filters?

So it's the mesh on the outlet of the bulb, we cleaned the sediment bulb and the mesh with a soft toothbrush and clean petrol..... Tho the filter on this is more like very fine perforated Aluminium than woven brass

BuzzBumbleBee · Post by **BuzzBumbleBee** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:00 pm

frank_w wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:58 pm
Hello,
you already got a lot of good advice, and maybe you already checked that, but still just to make sure: Did you check valve clearance..?
Regards,
Frank

Not yet, looking at the advice it's probably worth another loot at the ignition and fuel system.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:22 pm

what you're describing is good methodology so far

you'll get this thing whipped

and yes, they are definitely a big learning curve

another variable which can be baffling and frustrating is that what was often believed to be "gospel" in the 1960, '70's and 80's is now known to have (in come cases) been riddled with error. Elders who have been IMMERSED in the hobby and around others while maturing in the hobby have had the opportunity to shed the error and embrace what is now known to be true. Elders who worked alone in their garage all that time, relying on scant available information may still understandably believe things which are not always true or helpful. Learning what is true and helpful vs things that are not, and then Getting past that in a respectful manner can be very difficult. Always judge advice with a careful eye and make use of the best info presently available. There are lots of useful items available, with the only warning I can give is that carb manuals printed in the 1980's do contain some hammer-and-chisel advice (a term I'm sure you've run into before), so again be mindful of everything you read.

Post by **JTT3** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:33 pm

Wait a second Scott are you saying mixing 25% diesel in your gas won’t loosen up the rings while you drive it?

Good advice my friend.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:40 pm

In this situation I would not spend the £400 or more for an ECCT or the likely £500 to £600 or more for a good HCCT. I would have an experienced professional test, possibly rebuild, and adjust the coils. If it turns out that you later take on rebuilding coils regularly, that's the time to invest in the test equipment. For coil service that's not likely to be needed again for years, the aforementioned experienced pro is the way to go. Don't worry. There will be other opportunities to spend hundreds of pounds.

I agree with Scott about pulling the head or otherwise tearing into the engine. That should wait, if it's really necessary, until all the easier measures have been tried.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:41 pm

JTT

wait...what??

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:56 pm

Fiber timing gears can cause issues short of total failure. In the case of a certain 1956 Chevrolet 6 cylinder, performance dropped off a little, but the 70 mile trip continued. Performance continued to decline as the miles rolled by, and as the destination was approached, the engine began to knock. Once shut down at journey's end, the engine would not restart.
It turned out that the fiber timing gear had begun to fail, and evidently slipped a few teeth without ever completely stripping. The knock proved to the the #1 rod, which had starved for oil due to fuzz from the timing gear obstructing the oil pump screen.
Replacing the timing set and the #1 insert put the ragged old car back on the road for another few thousand miles.

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:08 pm

The engine has enough compression to run as good as it is. it needs a rebuild.

Post by **George House** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:14 pm

Scott: John just didn’t have a ‘tongue-in-cheek’ emoji to insert next to his “25% diesel in gas tank”

Been Here Before · Post by **Been Here Before** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 8:05 pm

Certainly a lot of advice.

I suggest that if you are mechanically inclined , prepare to replace the rings and possibly the piston(s) as needed. Resurface the valves and repair the motor mechanics. Check main and rod bearing whilst repairing.

The motor can be kept in the frame and not removed.

See the section on Ford Supplement here:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Dy ... frontcover

Then go back and sort out the ignition.

Contrary to all the expert advice the "Buzz Box" Tester kept the Model T operating long before the ECCT or the finding a shop with the HCCT.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 8:16 pm

Contrary to all the expert advice the "Buzz Box" Tester kept the Model T operating long before the ECCT or the finding a shop with the HCCT.

yep

poorly

Note to Shane:

opportunities to evaluate good advice from bad advice abound on the Forum - and paradoxically, you tend to learn far more from following bad advice than following good advice...it's just a more painful and expensive trip

Virtus · Post by **Virtus** » Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:41 am

Shane, I can highly recommend Rod Viveash in Northamptonshire to check and calibrate your coils. My 1921 TT starts easily on the handle and runs evenly since he set up the coils.