Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

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Quickm007
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Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Sun May 19, 2019 11:15 am

Hi,

I bought couple years ago at Hershey a Kingston coil box for my 1911 touring car with coils. But I do not know how the wiring inside the coil box is supposed to be from the coil box switch. The one I bought do not have any wires inside. So, I need to know how to install wires in the goal to switch from coils to Magneto accurately. Can someone send me pictures and Diagrams in the goal to understand how to fix that please?
Here couple pictures of what I have.

Thank you in advance for the help.

Kind regards,

Mario
coils 2.JPG
coils 3.JPG
coils 1.JPG
coils 5.JPG
coils 6.JPG
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
1914 race car project

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Sun May 19, 2019 11:15 am

coils 4.JPG
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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun May 19, 2019 11:43 am

Mario

I am the bearer of bad news...those coils are not going to fit in your coil box without considerable changes to the box. That box takes an earlier type of coils. You are showing the "Williams" style coil used from '14-'27
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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by HornsRus » Sun May 19, 2019 11:57 am

i have a set of 4 for that box.listed in ford book as 1911 only metal covered units.they are listed back in the classifieds.still $300.00.charley


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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Sarikatime » Sun May 19, 2019 12:02 pm

Talk to R.V. Anderson. He specializes in the restoration of the early coils and coil boxes. Frank


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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun May 19, 2019 12:51 pm

Buy Charlie's coils and send to RV for repair and you'll never have a moments trouble.
Scott Conger

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Sun May 19, 2019 2:15 pm

Here a picture of the coils inside the box and they fit perfectly. I don't know a lot about coils maybe I miss some informations. I'm open to learn more about it, partuclary in that case.
coils 7.JPG
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1914 race car project


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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun May 19, 2019 2:43 pm

Well, you do have quite a mix there. I had not seen the modification done to the coils which was obvious in the pictures, but did not notice. Someone has grafted new/wrong points on those coils? The correct coils come left/right, with offset contacts on the "front" of the coils so as to line up with the contactors in the coil box which you will see are not perfectly equal in spacing.

Take a look at this for information...you'll see there is quite a variety of coils that many folks are unaware of...
http://www.mtfca.com/coils/Coils.htm

Turn your coils around so that we may see the side that faces the porcelain posts/contacts. Need to see all 4 at once. Thanks.
Scott Conger

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by JTT3 » Sun May 19, 2019 2:48 pm

So let’s answer the wiring question first. If this is the box you’re talking about and it came like it looks now more than likely the wiring is connected in the box. There are slots and holes that are drilled in these older coil boxes that exit out behind the switch and connect inside the switch. Don’ fix it if it’s not broke. The coils you have pictured look more square than rectangular which leads me to a couple of thoughts. Can you take a picture of the bottom of your coils? Looking at the picture supplied leads me to believe that someone modified some coils to fit the box or modified the points to fit the coils. If the first is true you will need to look on the bottom to see if the contact is in the center of the coil or on the edge of the bottom so it will make contact with the spring in the bottom of the coil box, if the latter is true I noticed that the back of the points have been cut or at least it appears to me to be so. If the retainer thumb screws are used to hold the coil down it could change your spark. As Others have Said RV IS THE MAN ON EARLY COILS. REACH OUT TO HIM.

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Sun May 19, 2019 2:58 pm

Also I check the all 4 coils with my tool and they work properly. Here other pictures:
[attachme
coils 9.JPG
nt=1]coils 8.JPG[/attachment]
coils 10.JPG
Attachments
coils 8.JPG
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1914 race car project

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Sun May 19, 2019 3:04 pm

All coils contact points fit perfectly with coil box contact either.
coils 11.JPG
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1914 race car project


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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun May 19, 2019 3:06 pm

Well, you've made a liar out of me...sure looks like everything lines up.

OK, the center/off position of the switch should have a contactor under it that goes to the lower/bottom strip that forms the common connection on the bottom.

The driver's side lower porcelain post should have a wire routed from it to the switch that would correspond to the MAG side of the switch...meaning that when the switch is moved over to MAG connection, there should be continuity from the MAG porcelain post to the bottom of the case (all four coils) and NO CONTINUITY to the other lower (BAT) porcelain post.

Passenger side lower porcelain is the BAT terminal and all advice above is applicable to this side as well.

good luck! and sorry for the bad info, the last photo you just posted pretty much answers it for me (certaily helped!)...I just wasn't expecting to see modified Williams style points on what you have... :)
Scott Conger

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Sun May 19, 2019 3:15 pm

Hello Scott,

The Ford T world is a more complex world than it seems. I am a fan of the T Model since already 15 years and I learn everyday different component. Thank you for your feedback. I wish someone could share photos how the wires were laid inside the box of coils. :o
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
1914 race car project


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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun May 19, 2019 3:24 pm

The Ford T world is a more complex world than it seems
Yes, it certainly is! And just for completeness of backing out of my bad advice, I was thinking of Heinze coils which had left/right coils and for the life of me, the one photo of your box appeared that the spacing of the posts was unequal.

I sincerely wish I had one for you to look at to see the wiring, but don't :(

Have hope...someone will provide evidence for you... :)
Scott Conger

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by DanTreace » Sun May 19, 2019 3:38 pm

This is much later coil box, with switch on the box, but wiring should be similar to what Scott posted, the common is the lower strip in most coil boxes. Yours may have individual contacts wired together? instead of strip. The wiring in these later years would be In the base wood piece, running in slots in the wood base.

Off, BAT, MAG should be wired like photo. Or contact R.V. Anderson, he will know for sure! email: rvmodelt AT netsync DOTnet



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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by R.V.Anderson » Sun May 19, 2019 4:36 pm

Just got back from Luray, as most of you guys on the Forum should have. Great little meet that is on the way up. For its proportionate size, I believe it has more early parts than Hershey or Chickasha. Y'all owe it to yourselves to CHECK IT OUT.

It looks like Mario has set of home built coil units that someone put together using KW style points.

Dan's photo shows the general plan of the switch wiring except that the "common" connection to the spring contacts in the box bottom is at the top of the switch rather than the bottom.

The '11-'12 style Kingston box bottom is a two piece affair, unlike the earlier '09-mid-'10 box that had a one piece bottom. The two piece is much easier to wire. The panel through which the springs protrude has grooves to hold the wire. The BAT connection is on the passenger side. Its wire is soldered to the terminal bolt and is then threaded through the terminal bolt panel and out through a small hole just above the bottom panel. It then runs through the wire grooves to the switch panel, then up through a hole drilled through the length of the panel to the hole behind the switch where it exits the wood and then is attached to the switch contact on the BAT side with a small terminal screw. The MAG wire does the same in all respects, just on the other side of the box and switch.

When I get unpacked from Luray I will post some photos.

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by HornsRus » Sun May 19, 2019 5:21 pm

mario, i moved the coils to the top in parts.charley

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Sun May 19, 2019 5:23 pm

Thank you gentlemen. This forum is awesome because of people like you, always helpful to make this hobby so interesting and pleasant. I’m impatient to see pictures. Thank you for the help, it is really appreciated.
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
1914 race car project


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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by R.V.Anderson » Wed May 22, 2019 10:42 am

Here is a new Kingston coilbox. The first photo shows the recess on the box underside where the two pieces that make up the bottom fit into. On the side closest to you, you can (faintly) see two holes out towards the box sides. (They are each located just inboard of the outermost grooves for the terminal spring ends.) Those holes are drilled at an angle and they intersect with the lowest holes on the engine side of the box, the MAG and BAT terminal bolt holes. The wires for those bolts are soldered to them, and then they thread through those angled holes and come out of them where you see their ends in the photo. The wires then go into the narrow grooves in the panel that you see in the next photo; the BAT wire heads off toward the right and the MAG toward the left, looking at the bottom of the box as shown. The wires follow and lie in the grooves, making two right angle turns as they head towards the switch side of the box. Once they get there, the wires go into the holes you see in the first photo on the side furthest from you, where you see the three holes that are somewhat close together. The BAT wire goes into the hole on the right and the MAG goes into the hole on the left. From there they both head up into the switch wire holes where they exit the box and are connected to the switch. The center hole (of the three) is for the "common" wire, one end of which goes to the coil springs in the box bottom. The other end goes directly up into that center hole and exits the box through the uppermost switch wire hole, where it connects to the switch at its uppermost terminal. To be safe, I always cover the wires in the grooves with a strip of electrical tape to prevent shorting with the "common" wire.

When assembling the wired box, you have to pull the wires tight as you go. It's very easy to "pinch" a wire and this leave a bit of it exposed, which you definitely don't want as it could cause a short.

Hope this helps.
Attachments
box 2 003.JPG
box 2 004.JPG


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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by R.V.Anderson » Wed May 22, 2019 10:49 am

One important note: The '09 and '10 Kingston boxes (along with the '10 JB box) have the BAT and MAG wire connections REVERSED from the normal. If the boxes are wired correctly, the MAG terminal connection is on the PASSENGER side of the box and the BAT is on the DRIVER side. Early switches read BAT-OFF-MAG rather than the usual MAG-OFF-BAT.

Many a magneto has been "killed" by a modern restorer who hooked up the coil box in the usual way.

By 1911, ALL coilboxes' connections were the more customary way, with the MAG on the driver's side and the BAT on the passenger's.

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Wed May 22, 2019 11:36 am

Thank you for the valuable information you provide to me. It is really appreciated. I have no idea how the wires were done and that make me nervous about my new magneto I have done. So how I remove the bottom without damaged any wires? It’s look I have hot potatoes on my hand… :|
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
1914 race car project


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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by R.V.Anderson » Wed May 22, 2019 12:11 pm

You can remove the bottom by backing out the 8 screws holding it in place, then, holding the coilbox so the terminal screws side is toward you, carefully lift the bottom as you tilt it away from you. If the wires break, they need replacing anyway due to corrosion. However, if you have an 1911 box with the large round bakelite switch, it most likely has the conventional wiring. If you have an ohmmeter, you don't need to remove the bottom to check the connections. Just take out the two screws that hold the switch cover on. Now use the ohmmeter to check for continuity between the MAG terminal and its connection at the switch. Repeat for the battery side. Since the wires are short you should get just about a 0 ohms reading (a dead short). Any substantial resistance shows corrosion in the wire(s), requiring replacement. If you replace one you should replace them all.

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Wed May 22, 2019 9:39 pm

Hi R.V.,

My 1911 Coil-boxes' connections were on the customary way, with the MAG on the driver's side and the BAT on the passenger's.

I also check the Ohm resistance and it’s look great. I also check the resistance on each coils and they look good either. What is your recommandations about adjusting early coils. I will post a picture of he tool I used usually.

Kind regards,

Mario
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1911 Touring
1914 race car project

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Wed May 22, 2019 10:48 pm

coil tester.jpg
coil tester.jpg
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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by R.V.Anderson » Thu May 23, 2019 4:58 pm

Unfortunately, because of their designs, the only sure way to calibrate the early coils is with a hand cranked coil tester. The so-called "buzz box" style of "tester" will not work for them. You can use it to find out if it works and to set the amp draw but that's it; you won't be able to check for proper operation on the magneto or to check for the double sparking that is the bane of these early units. Coils with new points are highly prone to this. The armatures are essentially sheet metal which is usually loaded with stresses that must be worked out before they can perform their best. The best way to do this is to drive the car to break them in, realizing as you do that an occasional, irregular "hiccup" from the engine is normal and will disappear in time. Because of this, I set up newly rebuilt or reproduced coils on the tester and ignore occasional, irregular double sparking. Steady or constant double sparking, however, is not acceptable and the coil will need its points re-set or in rare instances replaced before the coils are released to the customer.

None of this is available to users of a "buzz box."

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Fri May 24, 2019 9:34 am

Thank you. I will try to use it this summer and I will send you my coils and coil box in the fall to make sure both works properly for next year. I have been working on my restoration project for my Ford model T 1911 for the last 8 years and I am looking forward to driving with my car this summer.


I have more than reached my limit of patience. I am very excited to go for drives. I did everything myself except coils and the coil box which my knowledge is limited on this area. :)
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
1914 race car project


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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by R.V.Anderson » Fri May 24, 2019 11:06 am

I will be happy to help you and your T. If you are eager to drive the car perhaps you could install a later metal box and coils while you are waiting.
Send me a PM for my mailing address if you need it.

rvmodelt@netsync.net

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Tue May 28, 2019 9:11 am

Thank You R.V. I will try to start my engine this week-end or the one after and see what happen. I will let you know what I experienced. ;)
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
1914 race car project

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:05 am

Hi R V. Unfortunately the coil box didn’t work as well. I’m a bit discouraged. I was so enthusiasm to start my engine after 8 years of hard work restoration. Please send me a PM about your complete address, I will send you my box and coils in the goal you able to make them working as well. I will postpone the resurrection of my dear 1911.

I’m close to cry because I can’t use anything else of that kind of coil box because my firewall is set up on that way. I will pray if you can restore it soon.

All the very best.

Mario😢
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1914 race car project


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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by R.V.Anderson » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:16 pm

Hi Mario: PM sent.

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:11 pm

Hi R.V.,

Also send you an an email. Coils and coil box on their way to your home.
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1911 Touring
1914 race car project


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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Larry » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:44 pm

I have a couple questions regarding an 09 Kingston coil box I am restoring for a project and thought I would ask them here instead of starting a new thread.

1.) The coil terminal thumb nuts are unique to the 09 Kingston box. Some of the suppliers sell a reproduction of that nut but I can find no reference to a second nut.
My question is: Was there only the one nut used on the 1909 terminal end or was there a second nut as on the later boxes?

2.) RV makes the following comment above:
“Many a magneto has been “killed” by a modern restorer who hooked up the coil box in the usual way” with the battery connected to the passenger side switch terminal and the magneto connected to the drivers side As opposed to the battery connected to the driver side terminal and the magneto connected to the passenger side terminal on the early cars.

I have run across several T’s over the years where people have accidentally reversed these wires either in the switch or at the firewall. The only problem with this was that the car would run on battery when the switch was on mag and on mag when the switch was on battery. I have never found a magneto destroyed because these two wires were reversed.
Am I missing something here?

Thanks in advance,
Larry


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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Larry » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:23 am

Bump

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Re: Need help for wiring Kingston coil boxes 1911

Post by Quickm007 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:16 pm

I would like to take the time to thank's R.V. Anderson to take a look on my coils and coil box. He fixed it rapidly, He's a really nice gentlemen and make the hobby so fun and also make the MTFCA community so cool. I'm really happy to be a MTFCA members and I appreciated the all help and advice I received it.

Also hope Larry will heard either good advice.

All the very best

Mario
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
1914 race car project

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