Steves 15 parts and photos

[Dallas Landers]

Steve wants to fix his T. I started this post to help find parts needed and show photos of the car at this point. I will take more photos as needed.

[Dallas Landers]

[Dallas Landers]

[tdump]

Thank you for taking care of Steves car.
But, once the " legal" aspects of this disaster are dealt with and the car is legally free and clear for Steve to do his wishes, I hope a couple things are done.

1. Forgive me if this comes across wrong but I will say it so others that may be thinking it won't have to look like the bad guy.
There are those that will say, "oh the car is not worth repairing, and they will type 45 paragraphs about why.
I hope those folks will refrain from all that as this is a difficult time for Steve and this car is important to him. If HE feels the car is worth repairing, support his endeavors and keep the negative vibs out of it.

2.Would it be to much for some of the more internet savoy folks to make a Youtube channel out of this? The reason i ask is I think it would be a good way for the general public to become aware of old cars and their presence and the results of not paying attention for them while driving .Plus sponsors -- vendors could supply parts and gain advertising, It would also be good instructional information for those wanting to rebuild a car. Straightening the frame, I would love to watch a video on that or even help if I could drive to where the work was being done. I put 12 anchors in the floor of my shop for that kind of stuff but have never really learned how to use them.

I know a year or 2 ago there was a member here that crashed his TT and i woulda been scared of those 2 fenders but he hammered them out and didn't even paint them! So the talent is there, the parts are out there and the interest is out there.

[Norman Kling]

It's hard to tell just what needs to be repaired vs what needs to be replaced. If it were mine, I would start with the frame and if all the members are intact without cracks, and the rivets are still in and tight, I would check it for sag in the center and same length diagonally from corner to corner. When that is corrected, I would check the block and transmission for cracks and see if the engine will turn over with the crank. If OK, then I would likewise check the rear axle. I would replace the entire front axle and spring and steering parts, because they are very important to be just right. Then I would inspect very carefully the 3 wheels for cracked spokes or bends. If they are good, then I would either replace the entire front wheel or if all other components are OK, replace the spokes. I would also replace the radiator. Then I would carefully inspect all the sheet metal and top parts and windshield and either do necessary body work or replacement parts. The wood parts of the body should be carefully inspected and either replaced the entire wood frame or at least the broken parts. Then the upholstery and top.
Or the entire car could be replaced with one like it and any good parts left from this one would be saved for spares or sold to the highest bidder.
But it is not mine to choose, nor to even do the inspections or work.
Norm

[TWrenn]

It does take your breath away...Steve's lucky to be alive in my book.

[George House]

Good comments Mack Jeffrey and Norm. I heartedly agree.I see the LF headlight rim was found and attached. How about the 2 cowl lamp brass rims ? The somewhat rare hood former looks good. How about the turtledeck ? Thanks again Dallas

[RajoRacer]

Boy - Oh - Boy - our friend Steve was very fortunate indeed - you gotta believe in "Guardian Angels" !!!

[ModelTWoods]

I'd say find a similar car in unrestored, but restorable condition, and use this on for a parts car.

[JohnM]

That is painful to look at. There have been cars found half buried that were resurrected, Steve has a number of options and a lot to work with here. The best part is he appears to be on the path to full recovery.

[ThreePedalTapDancer]

I think once Steve has had some time digest the reality of what happened to him and his car, and is back at home, he will understand the daunting task ahead of him regarding fixing his car. But he is the Dauntless Geezer, so I offer my two cents. Do a complete inventory of what is still undamaged and still usable. Make a list of what is severely damaged or requires intense repair to be usable. Make yet another list of what is not repairable. Start with another fresh straight frame, and start rebuilding it from what you have in good parts and acquire what you need. The reality of fixing that body, with the countless hours of bodywork and panel replacement puts the possibility of a completely repaired car many months, even years away. I speak from experience, having restored several Ts from the frame up. That’s when a donor car begins to make sense.

[TWrenn]

I'd say find a similar car in unrestored, but restorable condition, and use this on for a parts car.

Well Ed's post just bounced mine out so I'll try again!

Talked with Dallas at length last evening. He said he thought he saw on the forum someone has a 15 chassis, no motor? Body? CRS strikes again.

Joe Bell has a frame he's offering, and a front axle. Don't know I'd it is complete or just the axle. Easy stuff to find. I'm sure Steve's spindles are toast. I wouldn't trust them. Also 2 wheels...if Joe doesn't have them also maybe someone will donate a pair from Hershey.

The door looks pretty whipped and wood work is well...that's a whole different animal. Definitely not in my wheelhouse!

Before long I will canvass the coupla clubs around here to see what kind of help we can offer here, maybe even a place to "reconstruct".

[Dallas Landers]

I am at this point trying to get the thoughts out there like Tim said. Parys needed a place and willing help. I hope to get Steves computer repaired and to him so he can be incharge of our next move forward.

[George House]

…and I also offered a ‘15 frame early on

[Papa]

I think taking an inventory of what is good, what needs to be repaired, what needs to be replaced, is all that can be done for now. As much as we all want to help, this car belongs to Steve and it is up to him to decide how to proceed regardless whether we agree with his choice or not. Once he is on his feet and is ready to look at it then his process of determining what's going to happen can begin. Even if needs the whole winter to consider what to do. He is the boss and we need to wait until he tells us what's going to happen, how, when, and where. Patience...........

[Rich Eagle]

I agree with Papa. Who knows what the future will bring and what Steve will want to do. He's very independent and will have his own agenda regardless of how things were in the past.
Time will tell.
It's nice to think of the possibilities though.
Rich

[JohnM]

Papa knows best.

[A Whiteman]

1, forgive me if this comes across wrong but i will say it so others that may be thinking it won't have to look like the bad guy.
there are those that will say, "oh the car is not worth repairing, and they will type 45 paragraphs about why.
I hope those folks will refrain from all that as this is a difficult time for Steve and this car is important to him. If HE feels the car is worth repairing, support his endeavors and keep the negative vibs out of it.

Thanks Mac, that is a sensible post which I can't agree more fully with.

That is really the essence of the hobby, - if WE BELIEVE it is worth it, then it is - why else would we be driving these old machines after all?

Cheers
Adrian

[Michael Peternell]

My thoughts. I would leave it as is, with this on a trailer as an exhibit and Steve in a lawn chair talking about it. Would be an awesome display at any show or gathering! He can adopt a new runner to putz with. He'd be on the road sooner and have one of the coolest displays ever. It's only "original once " Now's the time to make it so. Just my opinion. This and $4.00 will get you coffee at most convenience stores.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

To me that’s a parts car. Get a decent donor and start shifting parts.

[Gen3AntiqueAuto]

I'm too far away I think BUT - if the car were brought here I would be happy to restore it for Steve AND put the entire process on youtube (as you know, it's what I do). I can't work for free (just had to come out of retirement 'cause inflation/bills/deathinthefamily) but if insurance is paying him (and they should), we get some parts donated (I have some here but not alot) - we can work out a deal so it doesn't come out of his pocket.

Thank you for taking care of Steves car.
But, once the " legal" aspects of this disaster are dealt with and the car is legally free and clear for Steve to do his wishes, I hope a couple things are done.
1, forgive me if this comes across wrong but i will say it so others that may be thinking it won't have to look like the bad guy.
there are those that will say, "oh the car is not worth repairing, and they will type 45 paragraphs about why.
I hope those folks will refrain from all that as this is a difficult time for Steve and this car is important to him. If HE feels the car is worth repairing, support his endeavors and keep the negative vibs out of it.
2.Would it be to much for some of the more internet savoy folks to make a Youtube channel out of this? The reason i ask is I think it would be a good way for the general public to become aware of old cars and their presence and the results of not paying attention for them while driving .Plus sponsors -- vendors could supply parts and gain advertising, It would also be good instructional information for those wanting to rebuild a car. Straightening the frame,I would love to watch a video on that or even help if i could drive to where the work was being done. I put 12 anchors in the floor of my shop for that kind of stuff but have never really learned how to use them.
i know a year or 2 ago there was a member here that crashed his TT and i woulda been scared of those 2 fenders but he hammered them out and didn't even paint them! So the talent is there, the parts are out there and the interest is out there.

[Aussie16]

Thanks for the photos Dallas. Has it been confirmed that Steve's car was insured and if he is not paid out by the person at fault, his own company will cover the cost of the write off of the car and he gets to keep the wreck? If he gets a full payout for the car and keeps the wreck, he will be in a good position, at least financially, and have many options available to him.

[JTT3]

Just something I saw in the Central Coast T’s Sept news letter
The project is owned by Victor Ray Foster in CA.
15/16 Roadster. $2750
This is a project car! Missing parts includes, but are not limited to: top irons, bows. top, splash aprons, 3 fenders, minor engine parts, coil box lid, good rims and upholstery. Included is a rewound magneto coil, a usable brass radiator, a Kingston 15 carburetor needing rebuilding and assembling, and a 15 engine.
It has tapered rear leaf spring implying a 1915 car, but non tapered front springs implying a 1916 car. A trip to Bob's barn
might source usable fenders, splash aprons and other parts.

[fschrope]

I'm going to give my two cents worth here as I had a similar situation 42 years ago only mine was on a larger scale - a White Freightliner and a Norfolk and Southern train. I wasn't hurt as badly as Steve though. I came to about 3 hours after the accident and was awake enough to give the nurses and doctors my wife's phone number. Then I blacked out for a few more hours and was downright mean and crabby for almost a week. I think the hospital was glad to get rid of me.

BUT, the point of this is, I wasn't in my right mind for a couple of months. I wouldn't admit it, but now I realize it. Other folks - especially my wife - will admit that I wasn't very pleasant to be around.

When Steve said he wants to repair the car, I'm sure it believed it - when he said it. A couple of months down the line and after he sees the car, he may realize that it may not be practical.

So, what if a lot of well meaning folks donate a lot of parts now, and later on Steve feels the car isn't worth rebuilding. I'm sure he is the caliber of person that would feel some sort obligation to return the parts or somehow compensate the donors. I feel like it might put him in an odd situation. YMMV.

Just my thought and opinions. Take it for what it's worth.

Oh yeah, one more thing. After 42 years, I still remember nothing, absolutely nothing until I came to in the hospital. Nothing.

[mbowen]

It wasn’t “practical” to repair my 1955 Cessna 170B nine years ago, but I had it done anyway. It was parked at the time, and I wasn’t even there, so my thinking wasn’t clouded by injury. It cost about half again what it would have cost to replace it, but the emotional satisfaction when I flew it away 2-1/2 years later and the 500+ hours I’ve flown it since then has been worth it. My late Dad had found it for me and spent quite a few hours enjoying with me, and I raised my two daughters in it, so any other one just wouldn’t have been the same. Sometimes sentimentality just trumps practicality.

[Dallas Landers]

All good comments and valid concerns. Let me be clear about this. Nothing will be done to the car or parts collected until Steve can get on here and be in charge of his car. After talking with him I just wanted to put feelers out for parts and options for him. We talked about how great this group is and all the people willing to help. I hope in a week or so he can get on the forum and read all the posts about him and the car. That should keep him busy for a while.

[Dallas Landers]

John, that would be perfect for Steves project.

[Susanne]

All of this depends on Steve.
He mentioned he wants to rebuild her. I do understand it, and a lot of us have tanen something worse than his roadster and brought it back from the dead. His project, while daunting, is nowhere near impossible....
Of course (my opinion only) is once the project commences, dig out the good old black book and start the painful act of disassenbly, and figure out what is salvageable, what is repairable, and what isn't. I'm sure Steve knows this better than most of us, but until the car is apart you can't really make an assessment of what really is what. A lot of the time damage is hidden, and damage hides good parts.
Regardless, it is on STEVE'S timeline, not ours. Remember that he is probably one of the most knowledgable people around when it comes to T's, and I'm sure when the tine is right he'll commence with the fun (or ask others to commence it for or with him).
Meanwhile, I'm grateful that he is on the mend, and THAT is the most important thing for now. The car can wait...

[varmint]

Steve,
Our T should have never been treated this way and maybe we should have never tired to fix it. It has taken us 7 years to get to this point and it's still not running but we do what we enjoy doing and work together. Perhaps we won't finish, even though it would be nice to. We did all the work ourselves because merely having a T is just not enough. This weekend we heard the coils buzz for the first time together. That is the reward.

[TWrenn]

John, that would be perfect for Steves project.

My gosh I just had a nice post and just got bumped out by Varmint this time! Dang this happens 30% of the time it seems! Others?

Anyway, yes, Dallas I couldn't agree more. Now I forgot half what I texted so in short, it's up to Steve, he'll need plenty of rehab first, winter's coming, he lives in the middle of the country in the middle of nowhere, so some of the issue will be finding qualified help, if he even wants it, to put it together. The "project car" would not be hard for him to handle alone quite frankly, not saying I nor others aren't willing to help. But getting guys together for many days, with driving to and from, etc. is not gonna be as easy as we think. If Steve decides early on about going the car that John T has found, we just hope of course it's still available, especially if he doesn't make up his mind for quite a while too.

[babychadwick]

Bring the car back. There is emotional attachment that will overcome logic any day. Leaving it as a wreck would simply be a reminder of the pain and loss every time it is looked at or thought of. Bringing it back becomes a triumph and success when thought of which is worth more than any dollar amount.

Having said that why not take the opportunity to improve things? I'm sure there are bits that were thought of that he wished were different at times. Maybe it's making it more absolutely correct for the year model (not sure if it's a 15 or 16). Maybe it's a change in the gearing or engine (overhead)? I think there is enough support here to not only bring it back but to bring it back better under his guidance.

[tdump]

sentimentality just trumps practicality.
I am glad a better word smith than myself typed that,but that is how I feel about this type thing.
It goes with most anything with me. No one in their right mind would repair this, but it was the first lawnmower my dad bought in 1964 second hand and the family used it I know up to 1980 ,Engine has been restored for years and the hold up was the wheels on the rest of it.
If something means anything to you, logic goes out the window.
You all have seen what my T's looked like at the beginning of their tenure with me. it wasn't as much the particular T meant something,it was the reason i built the first 1 that was important.then it went from there as to enjoying the challenge.
In Steve's case, his age is a factor to consider,he will want to drive it at some point. so the work would need to be done in a reasonable time frame

[NealW]

All good comments and valid concerns. Let me be clear about this. Nothing will be done to the car or parts collected until Steve can get on here and be in charge of his car. After talking with him I just wanted to put feelers out for parts and options for him. We talked about how great this group is and all the people willing to help. I hope in a week or so he can get on the forum and read all the posts about him and the car. That should keep him busy for a while.

Dallas, THANK YOU so much for all the work that you have done on behalf of Steve. You have gone way above and beyond regarding your visits to him and retrieving and storing his car for the time being. His accident is that nightmare scenario that all T drivers hope never happens to them.

I also think it is wonderful how many on the forum have contributed financially and offered encouragement, suggestions and potentially parts for fixing his car. I have refrained from commenting up to this point, but decided to share the following thoughts.

How insurance settles this may depend on what the "agreed to value" was on the car. Even if the value was high, I suspect that the car will be considered totaled and will offer to pay that amount. I suspect that the car will then get a salvage title, even if he buys it back. That will require more hoops to jump through including an inspection by the highway patrol to get a road title again in Kansas (of which I'm also a resident).

Steve and I belong to the same great MTFCA chapter, the Flatland T's of central Kansas. That underlined portion of our name is important. I may be the chapter member that lives closest to Steve, and I am an hour away. Many of the members are 1 1/2 to 2 hours away. The club has regular "work days" to help members with a given project, which is a great way to help and also a great way for less experienced members to learn how to work on a T. I have not spoken to any of the club officers yet, but I could see the club organizing a work event to help at some point. The reality is that those activities are not always the most productive, because you often can only have so many people working on something at a time. Having multiple projects being worked on at once would help, but if you have 10 people working for 4 hours on a Saturday, you will be very lucky to get even 20 hours of total work done. Being retired now, I would try to help more if I can.

Unless you have done it yourself, I don't think many people realize how much work it is to fully restore or rebuild a Model T. Yes, they are simple, but it is still a lot of work. I have fully restored a 1915 runabout (like Steve's) and a 1911 touring car. I wasn't retired when I did the 15, and it took about 10 months of work (plus 3 months off for winter and waiting for the engine/axle to be finished). As my wife can attest, I spent almost every evening and a lot of Saturday's working on it. The 1911 took 8 months of almost full time work after I retired last year. In both cases I did all the body work, painting and upholstery. All those take time. The 11 I also did the engine and rear axle, which hopefully in Steve's case won't need work. Neither car were in as bad of shape as Steve's car, and in both cases I had at least 500 hours or more in the restoration effort for each car. Based on what can be seen from the pictures, I suspect that Steve's car will need the "tub" replaced as well as most or all of the body parts. Unless new fenders from Rootlieb are obtained, any used ones will likely need some restoration work. Steve has mentioned before that he thinks that his 15 is a "salad" car, so replacing parts that weren't original anyway doesn't affect the car's value.

I shared the details in the last paragraph just to provide an idea on how much time fixing this car will likely take. I also learned how physically demanding doing a complete rebuild/restoration is. I consider my self to be in very good shape, but even restoring these cars while in my late 50's was at times very tiring and I was often sore. I can't imagine doing it in my 80s!

Neal

[Gracie'sDad]

I'm not a betting man but if I was I'd put money on Steve being "back in the saddle" before you know it.

[Mark Nunn]

John, that would be perfect for Steves project.

...he lives in the middle of the country in the middle of nowhere, so some of the issue will be finding qualified help, ...

It seems to me that Steve lives relatively close to McPherson College. Maybe their restoration program could help get Steve back on the road sooner.

[TWrenn]

Mark that is actually a heck of a thought as well as good news. Think of all the value so many could achieve from that approach...several college kids get excellent hands on experience, while at the same time a sobering message about safe driving, as we know so many are distracted these days resulting in wrecks like this. Steve could no doubt work side by side or at least supervise. And of course he'd get his beloved car back probly sooner than by other means. Worth looking into.

[tdump]

Mark that is actually a heck of a thought as well as good news. Think of all the value so many could achieve from that approach...several college kids get excellent hands on experience, while at the same time a sobering message about safe driving, as we know so many are distracted these days resulting in wrecks like this. Steve could no doubt work side by side or at least supervise. And of course he'd get his beloved car back probly sooner than by other means. Worth looking into.

DItto,dang good idea there!

[babychadwick]

The solution to helping out is simple. Divide the work, let a club/group/person take on a job whether it's rear end, transmission, front axle ect. You could have many people all over working at the same time on different parts. Then it's just a matter of transport, inspection, and assembly.

[JTT3]

Well we could do a “Steve Jelf bake sale”, ha . Contact his club and ascend on Jelf’s place, tackle the major items in a few day’s camping out or occupy a hotel near buy. Just Spitballing here but could be fun. Just have it set with a core group & volunteers to tackle sections of work and bring items with them to complete the section of the build they self assign to. I think many of us have seen the quick builds at some major events. This one would hopefully be more precision but man what fun. What would be amazing if the engine is in good shape after inspection, then a lot of the battle is won. Pipe dream….. Maybe the goal he has is to save everything & repair everything as others have stated more eloquently than me. Perhaps the college repairs the sheet metal, wood and what ever else they could do, then the bake sale. Maybe he’ll rename his T Grace once back on the road again. What ever happens I hope this is something we will all be proud of. Best John

[Bob McDaniel]

I need to post this while I'm thinking of it so forgive me if I am jumping the gun but we are scattered all around the country with different skills that can fix anything so I can picture Steve's car back on the road fast if we can just get the parts from place to place. If someone is willing to donate a part like the frame but it is 2000 miles from wherever it's needed we can pass it from person to person if someone is headed in that direction and has room to haul the donated items. It would also be a good way to put faces to some of the names here for some members who have never met outside the forums.

[tdump]

Well I had been contemplating rejoining Mtfca and after what happened to Steve and being reminded of the quality of people I am interacting with I just rejoined.
Not often you find people that are willing and offering up parts and help to people that may need them.
I have read several good ideas here and likewise,i am far away from Kansas but still yet,this coulda been me that got hit. And I can't help but feel like I would receive similar support.

[1925 Touring]

Is anything going on at Hershey to help Steve?