Play within the steering column

[Bill Robinson]

Thursday 10.26.23....I am editing this topic- DO NOT heat the rivets just prior to installing it in the column for peening. WHY? We discovered that the internal assy that the rivet penetrates is made from brass. Phillip's assy was still shiney and easy to tell what it's made from brass, where mine was all tarnished, black, and looked like old steel. A HOT steel rivet and brass might not get along.

A Model T friend and I have similar problems. Both T’s are 1927. The steering column holds the steering quadrant and they are held in place by 2 steel rivets. On each of our cars there is excessive play (wobble) of the quadrant within the column. This play creates excessive play in the steering wheel. They both drive well but some tours do not allow a Model T on a tour if the play on the steering exceeds 2 inches, and we both tour, so we need the do-the-fix and replace the rivets.
We plan on using a rivet bucking tool on one end of the rivet and a pneumatic riveting gun to to the work.
Here is my question- Is the any advantage to heating the rivet?
Pro’s and Con’s please.
See the picture which was borrowed from a post made by Dan Treace back in 2012

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

You don't need to heat the rivet. I would also not use a rivet gun for rivets that small. It's very easy to do cold, with a hammer and proper rivet sets. You'll also have better control by using a hammer. Be sure to upset both ends of the rivet enough to make the head bend over, deform, to match the angle of the column tube.

You might find that just replacing the rivets may not help much. Very often, the column housing is worn or stretched or even cracked, allowing the gear box to be loose. Do I see a small crack in the column tube you show? Many folks insert shims between the gear box stem and the column tube. Others have added material to the gear box stem by brazing and filing to a snug fit with the column tube.

[Humblej]

The Ford Service Manual paragraph 758 describes assembling a steering column and what to do if the rivets are loose. Ford recommends using a taper pin instead of a rivet. I tried the taper pin method but was not happy with it so drilled the rivet holes out for a larger size rivet and installed cold. That worked for me. As Jerry noted, the rivet head is not on a flat surface and it takes a lot more effort to seat the head on an angle.

[John kuehn]

When reassembling the gear box to the column it needs to be a good snug fit to begin with. If it’s not you need to use shims or maybe the column is cracked or slightly stretched. It doesn’t take much for a loose gear box fit.
The rivets hold the parts in place and don’t really make the parts go together tighter but very little if any.

[jab35]

Bill:
One thing I found helpful in doing this rebuild was to construct a cradle to support the column and buck both rivets, I used steel bar and created a 'V' to match the angle of the tube and drilled two shallow divots to support the rivet heads. With the cradle in the vice things are supported and aligned and you can easily peen the rivets, cold, and have a good repair. Good luck, jb

[RajoRacer]

This is one task that really helps having another person hold & steady the column. I do them cold & have made bucking forms. As other have eluded to - the gear case needs to be quite tight in the housing.

[Bill Robinson]

This is where I am now on my column. With the steering assembly removed from the car and in a vise with rubber jaws, I have found that a previous owner had attempted to fix the sloppiness. His work made my job of disassembly tough, to say the least. Take a look.
See the blobs of weld (obviously mig or tig). There was a blob in all 4 "corners" of the oval housing that the inner assy fits in. I think the purpose of these welds was either to tack the inner to the outer or possibly to act as shims to take up space.
It didn't work and 2 of the welds came loose when I hammered the steering shaft back.

Now, look at this next image- column flipped over. Someone has either hammered a small chisel or screwdriver between the tube and the part that puts friction on the timing/throttle rod, thus bending the tube towards the inner assy, then adding another blob, in hopes of not needing any shims.

I'm meeting with Phillip tomorrow to examine has column and to come up with a plan.

[ModelTWoods]

I don't know what would cause the steering gear case to "freeze" up in the steering tube, but the original in my grandfather's 27 coupe has. Back in the 1960's, when my Dad and I restored the coupe, we wanted to remove the steering gear case to have it and the spark and throttle rods, chromed. We carefully ground the heads off the rivets and used a drift punch to push them out. We expected the steering gear case to come loose with minimum effort, but, Wrong, try as we might, the steering gear case wouldn't budge. We tried everything short of a slide hammer on it. So we painted the case and rods and put the steering back together WITHOUT replacing the removed rivets. The car saw limited miles over the next 15 years before put into storage when my Dad passed. The mileage during those 15 years might have been as little as 500 miles, but the steering case never budged. When I did a freshen up restoration on the car, I replaced the original steering column with one that had been completely restored, correctly. I still have the original, though.

[John kuehn]

If you intend to keep the present column tube it may be time to make a thin sleeve all the way around the inside of the column that can be placed inside the column about the length of the gear box. Maybe you could use some 24 or thinner gauge sheet metal that you could get to fit. Maybe you could get it fit at least on one side.

[Bill Robinson]

Terry- what caused mine to freeze up was the friction from the welded blobs and the spot where the chisel lapped the tube onto the inner assy causing the part to slide out.
John- I haven't measured the gap yet, but I'm guessing it to be around .010". That equates to .020" wobble in the internal assy, and probably 1 full inch play in the steering wheel.

[Allan]

A shade tree fix involves grinding a hacksaw blade so it will fit between the column housing and the steering box casting. The thinned down blade can be driven in and snapped off flush. Done on the underside, it is not noticeable. It is well worth a try as an interim measure, that may just become a little more permanent.

Allan from down under.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

The thing about using shims is assuring they can't eventually slide down into the tube. Then you're back to where you began.

[Bill Robinson]

Today, we inspected Phillip's column. We found some cracks in the outer tube that were causing almost 3" back and forth play in his steering wheel. We found a total of 6 cracks. They have been welded and ready for the welds to be ground down tomorrow.
My column had no active cracks, but there is one that has been welded at some time in the car's past.

[OilyBill]

Well, you can see what all the riveting and welding do to your steering column.

My personal opinion is that Ford's use of rivets on different assemblies, especially ones that may need service, such as the steering column, was extremely poor judgment. There is absolutely no point in repeating that poor practice when you put the steering column back together.

I did not re-rivet the steering column on my 1914 Runabout when I took it apart for restoration. I lined everything up, and tap drilled through the rivet holes. I think I got a good 10-32 thread on all 4 holes.

When I reassembled the column, I put the upper steering block in place inside the tube, installed the spark/throttle bracket (brass casting) outside the tube, and secured it all with round-headed bronze screws. Plenty tight, no movement or shifting or wiggle, and if I ever need to take it apart again, it will be simple and do no damage.

If the inner block or the outer spark/throttle bracket HAD gotten some wiggle room due to deterioration, I would have explored cutting and installing thin brass sheet shim stock to remove any excess play, and then used "Loc-Tite" during assembly to insure no further movement in the future. Take the time to make sure that any shims you install, also register with the screw holes, so they are locked in place and cannot shift as well.

Rivets in axle housings? Yes, that's fine! Everyone in the automotive industry has done it for over 100 years, and it has worked very well. Rivets ANYWHERE ELSE (Except running board brackets or chassis assembly points) are a bad idea. They were a bad idea then, and they are a bad idea now. I removed the solid pins in my spark and throttle rods, and replaced them with spring pins when I put them back together as well.

I won't be hammering and chiseling and driving and punching and drilling at odd angles when I work on my steering column. It will be strictly careful disassembly work, repairs as required, and then equally easy reassembly work for another 100 years of the car's existence.

The sharp person will also note that I mentioned that i used BRONZE screws. These are NOT BRASS SCREWS. Just like for your magnet retainers in your spinning flywheel, you should be using BRONZE screws, from a marine supply house, which are TWICE the strength of Chinese BRASS screws from your local hardware store. If you use bronze screws in your magneto assembly, you have a MUCH reduced chance of screw fracture and magnets coming loose and damaging the inside of your transmission case or engine block.

Just my two pfennigs. Other opinions may vary.

[John kuehn]

Years ago when I worked on my first Model T steering column I took it apart by driving out the two column pins. The gear box had gotten loose in the column and needed tightening up.

Not knowing any better and not to trying to keep it “original” I installed two full length screws through the two holes and tightened them up the nuts. It worked easier and better in my mind and stabilized the gear box.

I was thinking this works better than the two pins that needed to be braded. . And it did.

A few years later I did install the “original style pins. But I have to say using full length machine screws sure seems a “better idea” . I guess Ford was thinking it was cheaper using two brad to fit pins. But what do I know! And yes I know two screws with nuts may not look as neat as the pins but the 4 shorter machine screws as Oilbill mentioned would be a “much better idea”.

[Bill Robinson]

Report! Phillip and I got the internal wobble issue that was on the upper end of the 2 steering column resolved. On each column, we replaced the rivets near the steering wheel. We first tried a pneumatic gun type hammer and a bucking bar but we weren't satisfied with the results. So, we we used a heavy hammer, a 3/8" punch and a vise as an anvil. Things went really well. Neither column has any internal wobble now and both cars drive great. Thanks to all who offered help! This is definitely a TWO MAN JOB!

[Phillip]

Big thanks to Bill for the welding and work on my T steering column. Wife and I went for a good ride today and the T drove great. Thanks also for all the input for fellow form members.
Phillip