Engine stuck already?

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Steve1920
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Engine stuck already?

Post by Steve1920 » Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:33 am

Hello all,

Any of you ever experience anything like this?

Two or three summers ago, I was asked by the owner if I could get his '13 Touring running. It was restored years ago, very nicely, with an engine/transmission rebuild, used very little after that and had been stored for a number of years up until I was involved. After the usual out-of-storage thrice over, a little tinkering, and then a pull-start (the arm and shoulder aren't what they used to be) out in the driveway, she fired up. It ran great, both the owner and I were pleased and then it was put it back in storage. Fast forward to a month ago, the owner wanted to start it and it would not turn over. He was disappointed and I was shocked! I've had many engines, both T's and others, set for longer than that and they never set up!

I borrowed an automotive endoscope from a friend (not the greatest quality picture viewing, unfortunately) but I didn't see rusty cylinder walls. I then put a little diesel fuel in each cylinder, put a jack under the crank and put just a little pressure on it, in the hopes that maybe it would loosen. I left the jack there for a couple of weeks but no luck. I would like to hope it is not stuck so badly that an engine disassembly will be required.

So, any ideas on what I could try to get it unstuck? Maybe this method? My grandfather used to tinker with all sorts of engines, and occasionally one would be stuck. As his very young and fearless assistant, I would either hold the engine steady or I would hold the piece of wood steady that he inserted into the cylinder as he repeatedly tried to hit the piston downward. Some broke free with very little effort, and some took a little more persuasion, but they would loosen up. Now, I have no idea what lubricant he put in the cylinders for that trick and I don't know which engines started up without issue or which ones had broken rings after the beating, but they turned over.

Should I pull the head and try doing that? Determine which ones are on the down stroke and start hitting? Gently, of course- not necessarily as wild as Gramps did. Or, is there another method I should try?

Any advice on this head-scratcher will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Steve


Norman Kling
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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:54 am

If you jack up one or both rear wheels with the brake off try turning the crank. If it turns the problem is in your high speed clutch. When you park with the parking brake on, it puts the clutch in neutral. The oil gets between the plates and sticks them. Parking with the brake forward in high gear with a chock under the wheels will force the oil out from between the disks and then when you pull it back into neutral it should work fine. If the weather where you live is very cold sometimes the clutch will also stick.
Norm


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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by speedytinc » Mon Oct 30, 2023 8:43 am

Lift one wheel, without plugs, Try turning the lifted wheel in reverse rotation in gear.(small chance of success)

Remove all the spark plugs. Figure which cylinder is on the down stroke. Adapt the plug for air pressure, apply 60-80#. If no movement, Put a jack under the crank handle on the up stroke. Lift the front end a bit via the crank & jack. Leave over night if necessary.
If you get some movement, it will probably be too stiff to hand crank. Drag start with 4 in the back seat for traction weight.
When you get it running, put a box fan in front of the radiator & let her run.

This procedure worked to get a locked up fresh motor to break loose & run in a roadster. 2 standing in the trunk, 1 on each side @ the rear of the running boards & 1 guy laying on the front fender to tune the carb. Quite a sight @ 10 o clock @ night. A cop saw us & had a good laugh.


Topic author
Steve1920
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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by Steve1920 » Mon Oct 30, 2023 9:59 am

Guy's,

There may be something wrong with the clutch, separate from the engine problem, and I'll explain why I think this. Here's part 2 of the story, which I should have included after seeing the replies.

Back when I got it running, I never got to high speed (thankfully!), only used low on the single lap around the owner's yard. The car was an absolute handful to drive due to reversed spring perches! So, the car went back up on jackstands (all four) immediately and I reversed them back, and that is where it has been since.

Here's the strange part. The potential clutch issue thoughts come from the fact that I can turn the wheels now, with the brake lever in the neutral or forward position and the engine does not turn.  That should not happen, correct? If the engine was not stuck, cranking it with the lever in high or in neutral with stuck clutch plates, the car would inch forward. It does not act like that would happen with the wheel movement I'm seeing.

I'm just thinking out loud here. Could there be a driveshaft or u-joint breakage that is allowing the wheels to turn but is locking up the engine? I don't know how that could have happened, it was moving under it's own power back at the garage, but I figured I'd ask.

More thoughts welcome on this!

Steve


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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:38 am

If you jack up both rear wheels, the engine should move with the crank regardless of what position the hand lever is in, IF the wheels will turn with the lever in "neutral".

Removing the hogshead cover and squirting Marvel Mystery oil over the bands and other internal parts may be helpful.



*Putting the lever in the high gear position and removing the spark plugs and rocking the car forward and backward as vigorously as possible may loosen a stuck engine. (Wheels on level ground)

I would mix a pint of Marvel Mystery Oil with 1/2 pint of acetone and put about half a cupful of the mix in each cylinder, then put the plugs in loose and let it sit overnight. Try the rocking procedure again, and if it's still stuck, add more of the MMO mix and repeat the overnight soak, then try again.*

If the engine frees up, turn it over with the crank several times with the plugs OUT to be sure it isn't so full of MMO that it can't turn.

Acetone can damage paint, so use care.


TXGOAT2
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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:45 am

With the rear wheels off the ground and the lever all the way forward, it may be possible to turn either one or both rear wheels without the engine turning, due to the differential. It's VERY unlikely that any driveline parts broke during the previous time you drive the car around the yard.

With both rear wheels on the ground and the hand lever all the way forward, rocking the car forward and backward will put considerable torque on the engine, which may loosen it.

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Humblej
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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by Humblej » Mon Oct 30, 2023 11:12 am

Steve,
A running engine that has become stuck could be damaged by brute force. A stuck bendix is probably the only thing I would rock the wheels to free up, and it sounds like this engine does not have an electric starter so that does not apply. A tight engine and insufficient lubrication will lock up an engine, being rough with it by using a jack under the crank handle or pounding on a piston with a block of wood and hammer may bend a connecting rod, damage a bearing, or score the cylinders and pistons. If it were mine, I would pull the engine, take it apart, inspect, lube and put it back together, if it were some else's I would wish him well and get him in touch with the local club for help. It is one thing to help someone get a car out of storage and running, it is a different thing all together to try to free up someone else's stuck engine. Getting your fingerprints on this at this point may leave you liable for any problems that may happen in the future from a flat tire to a broken crankshaft.


Jerry VanOoteghem
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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Mon Oct 30, 2023 11:49 am

Steve,

As others have suggested, check for the possibility of a stuck clutch. It's very common and easily tested for by jacking up the rear wheels and seeing if the engine will now turn over when the stick is either in neutral or all the way forward, in high gear. Always do the easy stuff first! ;) There's always time to do the P.I.T.A. :x stuff later, if need be.

If it is a stuck clutch, run the engine for a while, with the rear end still jacked up and the wheels spinning, and the front wheels well chocked. Once the oil heats up you can then try applying the brake to see if the clutch can be coaxed into releasing. (Don't rev the engine with the wheels spinning freely.)


Norman Kling
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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Oct 30, 2023 11:53 am

Another possible cause of the problem would be an internal water leak into the cylinders. This could happen by a head which was not torqued after warming up for the first few times the engine is warmed after the gasket has been replaced. Or a crack between water jacket and cylinder could cause it. If the engine which is already tight sets for a month, it could rust a cylinder or ring which could stick the piston in the cylinder.

Since the high speed clutch did not work the first time you drove the car, that is the most suspicious thing i would suspect the clutch is stuck either internally due to wear or due to oil stuck between the disks. Since the weather is cooling off, if you used high viscosity oil it might have thickened causing the problem.
Norm

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babychadwick
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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by babychadwick » Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:38 pm

Steve when you say the wheels turn without the motor turning in high (lever forward) is that individually, together, or opposite direction? I'm confused on your reversed spring perches. I know the forward would reverse axle camber and those are not typically easy to remove but the rear???

It is possible for the rear wheel to turn thru the differential with a broken drive shaft.
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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:50 pm

If you're not in a hurry (winter is coming) - dump some "unsticker liquid" - Kroil, MMO atf acetone, whatever down the plug holes and fill the engine pan up too. Jack up a rear wheel, do the hand crank at 8oclock on a log thing again, throw it in high, and wait. I assume you established if it will roll around in N or not. Another idea is drag it across the lawn and pop the clutch.

Alternative is pull the engine cause if that doesn't work, most likely something is broken.

I'm one state away if you need help.
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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by su8pack1 » Mon Oct 30, 2023 9:19 pm

I just had a similar experience with my 1925 Roadster last week. With the key off I turned the crank over 3 times with the choke out. Then with the key on battery I hit the starter, one click and then nothing. Several more attempts sounded like the battery was dead. I tried the crank and it was stuck, even standing on it did nothing. I'm thinking maybe starter, so I pull off the Bendix cover and the Bendix gear is stuck fully engaged. Removing the end bolt with the pin still would not get it loose, so I had to take the other bolt off the spring and still nothing. I then pilled the starter and as I tilted it the Bendix gear came loose, and the engine was free and could be cranked over. Starter and battery good.
I sent the Bendix to Lang's for repair.

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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by Craig Leach » Mon Oct 30, 2023 9:37 pm

Some stuck engine notes. You can make a socket that will go in place of the crank ratchet that will let you turn the engine both ways and give
you more leverage than the crank handle. Pull the drain plug to see if there is water in the crankcase. Most likely if there is it found its way past
a piston ( crack in block or head, gasket leak or seep) With the rear wheels off the ground the engine will not turn & there was no water in the
crankcase that might rust a band to a drum then it most likely is a stuck piston or valve. All the lubricants suggested are good I like PB Blaster
but it smells pretty strong. When I store a engine if it can be run it is run till it is @ operating temp, cooled down, water/coolant drained, plugs
pulled & cylinders oiled, turned over, plugs back in & sealed up. Every orifice pugged to prevent moisture, bugs & dirt from getting in. On a
Model T don't forget the throttle rod hole , both sides. I have a friend that was charged with freeing up a M-F that had been stuck for decades.
He tried everything he knew with no luck, when a gentleman of great experience told him to mix dish soap & water 50/50 & poor it into the
cylinders till full & Waite for two weeks & try it again he said it took some effort but turned over he cleaned out the cylinders & it started with
little effort. Changed the oil & it was a runner( this is hear say but ???? )
Good Luck.
Craig.


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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by Moxie26 » Mon Oct 30, 2023 9:44 pm

Danny, by jove, you have solved his problem!!! . . Very similar circumstance happened with a friend's 26 touring, and a blessed miracle came about after the starter was removed.....


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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by speedytinc » Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:21 am

There is no mention that this "13 touring" has an electric start.
Otherwise, a bendix issue would have been a good guess.

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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by Susanne » Tue Oct 31, 2023 3:56 pm

Here's the strange part. The potential clutch issue thoughts come from the fact that I can turn the wheels now, with the brake lever in the neutral or forward position and the engine does not turn. That should not happen, correct? If the engine was not stuck, cranking it with the lever in high or in neutral with stuck clutch plates, the car would inch forward. It does not act like that would happen with the wheel movement I'm seeing.
That's a HUGE clue. If you can move the car in high but the engine doesn't turn, something islocking up the engine/transmission, and the clutch stack is so loose it's allowing the plates to slip, allowing the car to move. Maybe the clutch came apart, a magnet is locking up the flywheel, or engine internal damage... but no, if you're in high, and the engine is siezed etc., the wheels should also be siezed up. It confuses me a bit why it would gradually lock down, unless you broke a crank or lost your main and now have a magnet to coil interference issue...
I'm just thinking out loud here. Could there be a driveshaft or u-joint breakage that is allowing the wheels to turn but is locking up the engine? I don't know how that could have happened, it was moving under it's own power back at the garage, but I figured I'd ask
Could be part of the issue - you could well have a broken U joint etc., but that would not be locking up your motor. Or your clutch fingers came dislodged (spitballing here) and they're not only allowing your clutch to remain disengaged but also stop the rotating mass of your crankshaft/transmission from turning.

So. From here (don't hate me) I'd pull your inspection cover if not your hogshead. Makes ure everything is in the right place. Also check to make sure you don't have magnet/coil interference. But the slipping clutch to me is a huge clue - may or may not be related to the motor seizure. But with the hogshead off you can inspect everything from the 4th main to the flywheel... You *might* get "lucky", tho even with that kind of luck you're still looking at some work...

I know not what you hoped to hear, but yeah, something is fishy in fargo. Give an eye tooth to see it in person.


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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by speedytinc » Tue Oct 31, 2023 4:08 pm

Check the low pedal & clutch linkage. Set according to the T1 manual. A look under the transmission cover is a good idea, quick & easy.
After a re-read with the "perches backwards", the quality & knowledge of the restorer may be in question.


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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Tue Oct 31, 2023 6:39 pm

The last engine I had to get unstuck was caused by water leaking into #4 Cylinder and in effect rust welded piston #4.

Removing the spark plugs gave a clue to the problem.

Removing the head gave access to the problem.

Several different solutions were added to #4.

Then a 3 inch round stick of firewood was inserted and hit with a large hammer.

The piston loosened up.

The leak problem was repaired.

The head and spark plugs were replaced and the engine ran well again after a short time to warm up.


Topic author
Steve1920
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Re: Engine stuck already?

Post by Steve1920 » Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:24 pm

Wow. A lot of replies to try and reply to!

The bendix is not the issue because it's original- no electric start. The spring perches have nothing to do with the engine problem. I mentioned them because the reversal of the fronts prevented me from attempting to drive the car in high, so I have no idea if the clutch is "working" as it should while underway. The jack I have under the hand crank is not exerting enough force to do any damage. It is providing just a slight amount of upward pressure. I was pulling up on the crank by hand for all I was worth and was picking the front of the car up more than the jack is. Water intrusion from a leaky head gasket could certainly do it. My Centerdoor had a bad head gasket when I got it. It had a slight bit of rust in one of the cylinders. If that had set any longer like that, I would have had a bigger problem- like a stuck engine!

The next chance I get (which may be this year, but might be in the spring, because the owner heads for warmer weather this time of year) just to confirm, I will attempt again to turn the rear wheels with the lever in different positions and note the results.
It's up on stands now but getting it back on the ground and trying to roll it will be another test. Like I said, something seems off, which leads me to believe the car may have both a clutch and engine issue. It sure would be nice if it broke free by rocking it in high. However, I'm not scared to do a little tapping with the wood block. It would still be nice to have that trick work vs. a complete removal and disassembly.

As mentioned, this has been a head-scratcher. I thank everyone for the advice and suggestions on this so far!

Steve

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