1914 can you help identify what corrrect

[Rata Road]

I purchased this 1914 sight unseen and it finally arrived today. I gave it a wash, ran it up to temp then drained/flushed the radiator, changed the oil, oiled and greased the bits you should and now I am keen to see how much of it actually is correct.
Motor isn't, wheels, coil box etc.
Little history known, restored in 2007 then into a museum, that closed down 2013 when an old gent purchased it but had little use.

I'll start with the rear end.
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[Rata Road]

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[Kerry]

In the 1913 model year, the frame changed to a longer rear cross member for the body mounts, yours is earlier than a 14 frame and should have forged body brackets that are missing from yours. Being in NZ is it a USA import or Canadian T?

[dykker5502]

Being in NZ is it a USA import or Canadian T?

Believe canadian. Always keep in mind that things abroad may not have been made the same way and at the same point in time as in the US.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Kerry vE, Look closer at that frame! The side channel rails do not reach the back edge of the rear cross member. They stop about midway of the rear cross member, with a riveted in place bracket to attach and stiffen the rear cross member (like all 1914 through 1925 frames). It appears to be a later frame with the ends cut off. There are no cast end brackets for mounting the body to the frame. They would be difficult to attach with the side rails too short for them to sit level upon. The replacement wood structure has wider than correct sills on the side to sit onto the outer edge of the frame rails and the cut short cross member. I can't see where the bolts are to hold the body on.

Only nine photos opened for me to see them, with a number of "attachment" notices indicating something didn't come all the way through the "net".
Most of the photos that opened are of the rear end. It appears to be mostly 1914ish. That style rear end was actually used for over two and a half years, beginning in July of 1912. They ran well into calendar 1915 on the late to market early 1915 style open cars. Back in the early days of our hobby, before hundreds of owners "corrected" their model Ts to prevailing opinions of the day, it was common to find the 1914 style rear end under original 1915s built as late as May of 1915. A close friend years ago had a June of 1915 very original car that the previous owner had changed out the 1914 style rear end. However, I suspect that by June, any T with the earlier rear end would have been an exception, not a common occurrence.
What obviously is not right on that rear end is the radius arms/rods. The back end of them are the "long cut" style used only the last two years of production, basically 1926/'27 only. Those are a bit over an inch shorter than the 1910 through 1925 radius arms, and generally cannot be used on earlier rear ends without some sort of finagling. But the other end doesn't show in any of the photos I can see.

That is about all I can tell you without seeing more pictures.

[Kerry]

Yes, looks to be cut and wrapped around and welded.

[Allan]

One rear wheel is also has a demountable rim/tyre assembly, not available until 1919-20. That is no bad thing as far as serviceability goes.

Previously, a photo showed a moth-in-law seat on the back of the car these were not available post 1012, The 13 and onwards cars had a turtledeck.

Allan from down under.

[Aussie16]

Rear radius rods appear to be 1926/27 model year type? A strange combination on a 1914?

[Original Smith]

One of your shackles is backward. The other is ok.

[Rata Road]

It was apparently sold new in New Zealand so yes its Canadian built.
Thanks for your feedback so far.
So the rear axle itself sounds period correct, that's a start!
Yes Alan it is the Mother-in-law I posted earlier. I realize this has been added as a fun factor.
I'm guessing there will be lots of incorrect bits like the brake rods.
All wheels are demountable.
What does the "T2852" on the Diff head area tell us?
I can take any other pics you might want to help with clarification.

Now for the front end -

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[Rata Road]

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[Rata Road]

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[kmatt2]

As had been pointed out the frame is a later frame with the rear crossmember cut off. The two holes in each side of the crossmember rear face, are for the spare tire bracket mounting , available starting in 1919. The rear radius rods have the bigger fork of 1926 - 27. The rear wheels look to be Kelsey type demountable with the removable lugs also starting in 1919. The tapered rear spring leaves’s don’t fit together well and may be from several springs. Many Model T’s on club tours have been keep on the road over the years using parts available to the owner and provide many hours of enjoyment on tour. Go over your new car keeping in mind tour safety and reliability first and correct 1913-14 parts second. Oh by the way the body appears to be a 1913 style with the larger doors and the forward folding windshield and the straight windshield brace rods .

[Rata Road]

Thanks Kevin.
I agree and will target a reliable runner over period correct but it will be nice to know going forward.
I'll get to the body pics later.

[Allan]

Re the front end, The tie rod is a later edition, with the adjustment at the ball end. Your should have the ball integral with the yoke, the adjustment being at the other end.
The kingpins and tie rod end bolts are the later type having the flip up oilers rather than the threaded in oilers like the spring shackles.
Some would argue that a 1913 bodied car should have different front fender brackets, which are round clear to the mounting flange. Your are the later type.
I have never seen the spring clips like your on an early tapered leaf spring. Usually they pass under the spring, with the bot through a rolled end on the spring leaf.

Others may see different things.

Allan from down under.

[nsbrassnut]

Some more observations.

Front fender irons and headlight mounts are the later type. V shaped mounts. Should be the flat base with a square flat on the inner radiator side of the fender iron. Headlight irons to match.

And you probably already noticed the modern muffler.

If the core of the body is original, it would likely have a F XXXXX body number stamped on the front seat wood base front rail. Canadian bodies were built by Fisher Canada in 1913.

Drive Safe
Jeff

[nsbrassnut]

And doesn't look like any standard Ford Canada body for 13-14 either. Doors look like '13, but the body sills are not right for '13 style bodies.

And the picture of the underside doesn't show any proper metal body mounting brackets bolted to the body sill.

[Wayne Sheldon]

The body may (does?) have the door style similar to the typical 1913 runabouts, however the body tub is not like the typical Ford produced tubs. It is more like the rear seat of a 1912 slab side touring car, or possibly even 1912 torpedo roadster. But I don't think they are exactly like those Ford part either.
Given that it was originally delivered to New Zealand, it could have been a "Southern custom" built by local carriage builders of the day. Makes a good story anyhow.
I would suspect the entire body is a recreation by a past restorer. But without very close examination I cannot be sure of that. It looks better than most similar attempts that I have seen. So I would recommend running with it and enjoying it. Make it safe, touch up the chassis paint issues with some spray cans, then drive it often as I know you like to do!
One addition (minor) detail I notice, is that the "top saddle" "L" brackets appear to be the longer touring car ones rather than the slightly shorter roadster/runabout versions. There is an about three to four centimeter difference between the roadster and touring "L" brackets. The touring ones let the top set lower so that the larger stack of bows and cloth would not sit higher.

[Rata Road]

Great info guys,

Thanks

[Rata Road]

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[Rata Road]

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[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Are those later style spindle arms being used for top saddle supports??

Does it kind of look like a 1913 Touring body that's been cut down?

Be careful of that steering gear box. The cover can't possibly be holding on by more than a couple of threads.

[Rata Road]

Good spotting Jerry I was going to check out the steering box today. Slowly working my way through it all.
Yesterday I flushed the radiator again, repacked the front wheel bearing, drained the fuel tank and made new fuel lines, removed the trans cover and fitted a screen and adjusted the tail-lamp bracket. I put some Kero in the tail lamp and lit it last night. Pleased with how well that glows.
Also went for my first test drive in it and was really happy how it goes. Lovely quiet motor and the car rides very nice.
I see it has wool bands, they seem to work well especially the brake for some reason.
Anybody know anything about that brand of horn? Looks like "Nonpareil"

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[Rata Road]

Do you think the transmission matches the era of the engine which is meant to be a 1918 but the engine number implies Feb 1920.
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[speedytinc]

Looks like you have a 26-7 wide brake drum with a narrow band on it.
C pins holding pedal cams is going to need replacing. Low band has quite a bit of wear.

[TRDxB2]

Do you think the transmission matches the era of the engine which is meant to be a 1918 but the engine number implies Feb 1920.
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If hog heads for starter's were introduced for 1919 & later models then this looks like one of them. Then not a 1918, more in line with a 1920

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If it as the ears the 1926-27

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Also as Wayne explained about the rear radius rods - pictures of the differences

[Allan]

The coilbox with the slanting lid is later than 1916. The upholstery is way too full. The buttons resemble the original trim, but the stuffing makes it look much more padded than original. It will compromise front seat room.
The wooden handles on the spark and throttle levers may be an indication that the column is earlier than 1913. The levers may be straight rods on the ends to take the hard rubber knobs used on early columns. Either that or some vandal cut off the original flattened ends.

It is a nice looking car, and if it performs well, just drive and enjoy it. If the body is a recreation, changing all the other bits will not fix that. I'd make changes as needed, but leave functioning bits as they are.

Allan from down under.

[John kuehn]

The car was built up by the looks of it with a few later year T parts. The average old car hobbyist wouldn’t notice it unless they looked close. If it runs well and drives well I would enjoy it as it is. It is a Model T with Model T parts. In the Model T era and later people would use T parts from a later T because most parts you could get to fit. When you began to drive it you’ll soon know if you need anything repaired.
Enjoy the car the way it is and have fun!

[Rata Road]

Thanks for your input so far everybody.
Sounds like lots of bits from different years used over time. It doesn't concern me as its a nice looking car and drives very nice and I didn't pay much.
It has an aluminum bonnet with no flutes. Will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the front body when I post them. After that I should have a clear understanding.
Getting thru all the areas I want to check, tomorrow I'll pull the rear wheel bearings and do what's needed. Its handy when you own several T's as every part I've needed to replace so far I had on hand.

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[Rata Road]

A more questions if you dont mind on the guards-

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Thanks

[Wayne Sheldon]

What was the question?
The ends of your fenders appear to be more rounded than most of the brass era fenders I recall seeing. Maybe that is a Canadian thing? I don't know.
I would need to go to where mine are to be sure, but I think the rivet spacing on yours looks shorter than my early 1915 front fenders. I don't know for sure, but I did some researching when I restored my fenders a couple years ago. My early 1915 front fenders had had the mounting brackets taken away, most likely to be used on reproduction fenders. A very common practice over here as many repro fenders are sold without mounting brackets.
After searching awhile for original mounting brackets for my early 1915 front fenders, and not finding any, I decided to make my own. To that end, I bought a reproduction rear fender from a 1914, that someone had used an original mounting bracket on it. The fender had been damaged in a minor fender-bender, and replaced with another new one. So I got the damaged repro with an original four rivet bracket on it! After careful measuring and some research, I decided the bracket on that fender was close enough to use on the front fenders (maybe someone can tell me now that I screwed up?).
Using the original from the damaged fender, I made two very close to the original brackets, and riveted them onto my fenders that needed them.
Although I made my copies out of angle iron, just like yours are, the original one I have was bent over flat steel with a clean, round, fold. Not quite like the sharper squared edge of the middle of the angle iron.
Again, maybe that could be a Canadian thing. Angle iron in those days was commonly available for manufacturing and construction needs. A Canadian supplier could have maybe made their smaller quantity out of available angle iron. Although, I suspect those were likely made in recent decades. Certainly not a detail to be very concerned about.

[TRDxB2]

Currently on eBay from Canada
https://www.ebay.com/itm/266374145905?_ ... %3A4429486

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From Langs

[Rata Road]

The question was if the guards looked period correct. Like you say being Canadian perhaps things were different.
I have 2 doors and I can squeeze in the drivers door if I have to, that's a Canadian advantage.
I'm taking it for a "warrant of fitness" check today which I need so I can renew the Registration. Hopefully all my work for the last 4 days going over everything has payed off.
I do enjoy working on Model T's plus it helps when everything I found wrong I already had new parts for on hand.
Once it is road legal it will be time to clean brass.

Thanks for all your time and feedback guys.

[nsbrassnut]

Hi All

Unfortunately, those are not original Canadian fenders. The Canadian fenders in the 13-14 period are known as "double bead" fenders with an additional raised bead around the outer edge. A picture of the front of a '13 Canadian fender is attached for reference.

Its far more likely that those are reproduction fenders such as Rootlieb ones. And the front fenders appear to be the '13 pattern without the raised cross bead part way down the back slope.

And the latches on the doors are later style from the '20's. The '13 latches have tall handles that come up through a top cap on the door and the '14 style is straight and doesn't have the twist and bend that can be seen in the picture.

I also took another look at the doors on my Canadian '13. The ones on this car are not factory Canadian Ford 13 doors. The shape is similar, but not correct in the overall shape or structure.

The car is cute and will be lots of fun to drive.

But on the authenticity side, unfortunately its very challenged and has only a handful of actual '13-14 Ford T parts present.

So go have lots of fun with it and don't think about the other stuff too much.

Drive Safe

[Rata Road]

Thanks Jeff

What you say is what I intend to do. Its a fun car.
Thanks for your guidance.