Starting issues

[Fisher400]

Hello,

I am having some starting issues with my T. I bought the car and it was in static storage so some of the backstory is unknown. After changing all fluids ect I am trying to chase down the starting issues but am running out of ideas. Engine cranks, wants to catch but won’t . If I jump it with 12v, it usually fires right away, does a slight surging at idle but when warmed up it runs great and drives great.With the ruckstell it hums along at 55 and would keep going. It’s the initial start that is giving me trouble and I would rather not rely on a 12v jump pack each time I want to start.
Here is what I have and have done:
-26 engine, model a crank, aftermarket cam, high compression, hard to hand crank with plugs in
-Rajo BB
-American Bausch 448 distributor
-timed, ground strap attached to generator as per instructions
-Mallory 6v coil from early 30s, works
-Winfield SR downdraft: rebuilt, float adjusted and adjusted as per instructions. When running it responds great.
- hand pump 1.5 pressure using fuel filter with regulator and pressure gauge
- new 720cca 6v battery
-new braided ground strap and clamp
- correct 6v cables on positive
- all contact points cleaned
- engine/ starter grounded to frame with dedicated braided strap

I always try starting on a full battery, rear jacked up.
Procedure is fuel pressure to 2 psi, wait about a minute to let the bowl fill, choke on, fully retarded, throttle about half way, crank about 5-7 times. Turn on ignition and try to start. I try not to crank long but 5 rotation intervals. Carb weeps fuel from vents and you can smell fuel. After trying this for some time, if I connect the 12v pack, it will usually catch and run.

Any ideas what I am going wrong here? I thought maybe I am not getting enough fuel at start up to catch? Maybe squirt some fuel down the carb before initial start up?

I would rather not waste money but I could replace the plugs, wires, capacitor and points and try a new 6v coil… only thing is when it runs it’s runs well so I assume it’s OK.

I see others with T’s that fire immediately and mine just fights me, but when it runs it’s wicked fast. Any ideas what may be the issue? Thanks!

[speedytinc]

First thought from your description is too much choke. Flooding.
My rajo motor with v8 carb only needs 1 choke revolution once the fuel pump stops.(up to pressure)

[Fisher400]

Thanks for the input, it’s worth trying to ease up on the choke. I was thinking stock T choke process maybe.

[speedytinc]

My stockish 14 takes 2-3 1/4 turns full choke. Ign on & 1/4 turn to start.
When warm, no choke, 1/4 turn to start. When off for a hour or so, usually 1/4 turn choke.
This is the final established procedure for this T.
Before I came to this, 4-5 1/4 chokes didnt reliably start. I might have to spin it. I figured I was over choking.

Just sayin. Your procedure may be different.

[RajoRacer]

I'm running a very similar set up to yours and my SR doesn't appreciate much choke AT ALL ! I am running a 12 volt system - the 6 volt doesn't appreciate the compression either !

[Fisher400]

Great input! I am going to try less choke. I choke less than previously but maybe I need to drastically choke less. Each one is different and this T has enough changed to make me chase my tail…

Rajo racer- I think high compression is fighting me here. I am trying to avoid going to 12v so my plan was to make sure 6v is on top shape (grounds, cables connection starter) and then if that’s still an issue maybe consider an upgrade to 12v. Any thoughts on cheating with an 8v battery?

Any Winfield SR advice or tips for set up? I have mine to stock with some slight adjustments but the surging at start up and idle has me thinking something is off. Occasionally I will get a back fire from the carb. It’s random but sows the seed of doubt that will have it set up just right. I figure start up issues first then fine tuning it!

[speedytinc]

Certainly controversial here. I run an 8v in one T. Its a high compression flat head.
I am a fan of 8V batteries,

[RajoRacer]

What condition is the starter in ? Clean brushes, bushings/bearings in perfect alignment & snout bushing within serviceable limits ? Our co-admin on this site is a starter guru & can set you up with a 12v. starter IF need be.

Most any Winfield can be a bit finicky but up here in the PNW, moisture is an issue - I run a heat stove off my header right down the throat of the SR - won't hardly run without it.

[TXGOAT2]

When you connect the 12 volt battery, are you connecting it only to the ignition, or to the whole system?
As far as I know, there is no universal procedure for starting Model Ts. Beyond that, yours has significant modifications. A downdraft carburetor usually requires less choking than a stock carburetor would. If your carburetor has an accelerator pump, it may not need any choking. High compression will aid starting, assuming the starter and ignition are in good order. A high lift cam may affect starting, and might require faster cranking and more spark advance than a stock engine but I doubt that's a factor unless the cam is extreme Excessively late timing will make starting difficult. Since your car is modified, adjustments to the timing control linkage may be needed.

A starter that is dragging or a weak battery or both can make starting very difficult, yet the engine may run perfectly once started.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I would turn on the ignition from the "get-go", instead of only doing so after 5 - 7 revs. I would also just "goose" the choke once or twice.

[Fisher400]

Great input here. Car does not have a hot air connection, just open carb and is on a very nice homemade intake.

Regarding the starter, that is on my list to check. I noticed the terminal post was loose and I suspect I may have over tightened it when I cleaned the connection as there is no other explanation for a rather loose terminal that was tight. I was going to pull the starter when the car is truly off the road this winter but with the starter out, this would be the time to decide to keep it 6v or 12v with the starter out.

When I jump it, I put 12v on the whole system. 12v to positive terminal and ground to a large nut on the rear crossmember. As soon as it catches I turn off the jump pack and remove.

The sr does have the accelerator pump and it works. Maybe I should have the throttle 1/4 open when cranking rather than halfway if it pulls too much fuel in.

Regarding timing, I have it in the stock position now, set up at fully regarded position . I have read about some setting fully retarded at the mid point on the control and then that gives them adjustment to advance but also further retarding adjustment… not sure if this would help me here.

Thanks for all the input!

[Allan]

When applying tension at the starter cable terminal, you should use two wrenches. A thin one holds the lower nut on the terminal while you screw the top nut down on the cable terminal. That way you are not screwing the terminal on the busbar in the starter. You will need to re-solder the connection.

Allan from down under.

[Susanne]

I had a rather strange but effective starting ritual when the car had been sitting a while. Gas off, battery on, pull each cylinder to TDC and let the coils buzz for a few seconds each (I used to call it warming up the glow plugs, probably more like burning the oil off the ends)... Key off, Gas on, wait for the gas to flow, Pull through choke 3 times - DO NOT OVERCHOKE! Winfields (which I've run a few) do NOT like too much choke! Gas down 1/4, spark either down exactly two notches (battery) or 1/4-1/3 (mag), give it a spritely tug over compression, and she fires. IF NOT... you've flooded it...

Throttle WOT. Key (usually) on Bat (tho you can do it on mag, and I have, it involves spinning, and people are deathly afrraid of that), and pull it over "spritely" until it coughs. Repeat until she starts to run (95% of the time), or until you've killed it (the OTHER 95% of the time ) . Once it catches, get the spark down, the throttle up, and the car over on mag.

IF you've really drowned the poor beast, pull the plugs, and pull it over, WOT, and then let it air out. Reassemble, "buzz" each plug (as above) abd likely while you're doing that you'll hear the happy "Chuff" of a now more agreeable motor.

A friend (we called him smokey) used to hold a lit lighter over the open spark plug holes, a trick he said he learned riding harleys, and as the overrich fuel mix ix expelled the lighter catches the mix and evacuates the cylinder (and occasionally the hair on his hands, arms, and occasionally face)... There were variations on this theme - A relative used to try "burning" the ends of a spark plug with a lighter or match... Never seemed to work well (I figure it was the time spent while the engine breathed out naturally), I referred back to my "put it on mag and warm up the old glow plugs routine (above)...

You can ALSO use the aerosol "bearing peening juice" (eg Starting fluid) but be careful, this stuff has been known to break far mightier engines than your lizzie... also it dries out your cylinder walls, good for the flooded condition, bad for cylinder wear. Also it tends to show you the awesome flame thrower capabilities of the mighty Winfield Carb, either making a wonderful light show down by your exhaust pipe or starting an unintentional bonfire of your eyebrows and hair, and lighting all the gasoline now sitting in your right engine cover (I *knew* there was a reason not to let leaves, rags, and crap accumulate over that hole) giving you that warm, christmassey feeling of a yule fire under that nice float bowl full of gasoline..... and giving you a chance to exercise your fire extinguisher. (And no, I did NOT take pictures). But I digress...

BTW and a side note Halon extinguishers are supposed to be bad for the environment, but so is a burning gasoline fire, and the halon leaves no evidence, er, mess.... I choose my losses. Just an observation... Also it doesn't hurt to carry a spare set of plugs, a necessity from my old 2 stroke motorcycle days - And of course, for a T, Just made that next pack Champion X's (They Satis-fire) - The longer lasting, smoother firing Spark plug - until you can clean the old plugs.

[ThreePedalTapDancer]

Winfield adjustment procedures here:

https://www.nwvs.org/Technical/2104WinfieldSR.pdf

[RajoRacer]

If your starter stud is "loose", that's the first & most likely main problem attempting the 6 v. start up !