Frame identification

[NPorter56]

Hi - I picked up this frame with a TT truck chassis last week. Was wondering if this frame is a very early t frame as it has no "ears" on the rear cross member (frame on the right). Other frame has the rear cross member cut off. It seems to be in good shape and still has some paint on it. Let me know what you think.
Thanks. Neil

[Wayne Sheldon]

Without looking closer, or a few more details? I can't be certain, but it does appear to be a mid 1913 or earlier frame.
While a lot of people have altered later frames to pass as pre1913, making them look right isn't easy. Yours looks right from what I can see. The channels are full length, and do not appear to have been messed with. And the rear cross member has the smoother surface. There are some interesting differences under and inside the rear cross member, how the end and corners are boxed and attached which cannot be seen in your photos.

[NPorter56]

Thanks for the info. Here are some more pictures. I don't have any model T's (just a TT truck) and certainly nothing this early so I will most likely just sell this frame if I can figure out what year it is. Let me know if you need any other pictures. Neil

[KWTownsend]

It's hard to see on my phone, but it look to me that the frame includes holes for the stamped firewall brackets as well as the forged brackets and includes the bolt holes for the post 1916 design fenders.

YMMV

: ^ )

Keith

[TRDxB2]

This will narrow it down -
Ques 1 = NO;Ques 2 = NO;Ques 3 = NO; Yes 1910-1913

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[NPorter56]

Thank you. Great info. Neil

[Norman Kling]

I wonder whether it was made for a right hand drive? Notice the brake quadrant is on the opposite side.
Norm

[TRDxB2]

I wonder whether it was made for a right hand drive? Notice the brake quadrant is on the opposite side.
Norm

That would do it.

[Allan]

The handbrake quadrant is on the left side!
There is no hole drilled in the side of the frame for the third bolt for the forged rear body corner bracket. There are holes in the rear cross member and the corner gusset to indicate that a spare tyre carrier could be mounted. I can't see the four holes needed to mount a muffler with the pressed steel bracket the early cars used. This leads me to think it is a later frame that has been played with.

Allan from down under.

[TRDxB2]

I wonder whether it was made for a right hand drive? Notice the brake quadrant is on the opposite side.
Norm

That would do it but its on the left side

[NPorter56]

Here are some pictures of the frame rails. Neil

[Norman Kling]

I looked at it again and you are right. It is on the left side.
Norm

[KWTownsend]

I see holes for both forged and stamped running board brackets as well, so definitely a later frame that was modified.

[NPorter56]

So am I correct that this frame is 1913 or earlier since the rear cross member is flush to side frame rails based on the above frame chart??
I see no evidence of frame modifications on the rear cross member area. Neil

[Allan]

Neil, the square end rear cross members have a forged bracket on the corners for the rear body mounting. These brackets have two bolts through the top of the frame and a third through the side. That frame does not have the third hole in the side. Somewhere there has been some modifications made to a later frame. Check out the other points made which indicate that there are later features on this frame.

Allan from down under.

[Wayne Sheldon]

OKAY!
Allan, I thought I could see the third hole on the side of the frame rail, although the angle didn't clearly show it, I gave it that benefit of the doubt. HOWEVER! I was bothered a bit by some too many holes in the frame. Again, not uncommon for frames or chassis that have been repurposed as power saws or field wagons. Once the flipped over underside of the rear cross member was posted, I said to myself "Uh, no, I gotta go out and look closely at mine, but that doesn't look like I remember it".
So I just came in from the little barn where my 1913 speedster is currently kept. The "different brackets" inside the rear cross member that I alluded to in my first post? Are exactly like I remember them, and they are not in this frame!
Just to be clear, my 1913 speedster does not have a perfect 1913 frame. What it has is someone well before I got it did a very nice job of welding a cut off rear section of a real 1913 or earlier frame onto a front section of a somewhat later frame. Personally, I would hesitate to use such a welded frame hidden under a full body and behind fenders and side aprons. But this 1913 speedster in the first place leaves the nicely welded area in full view, and in the second place, the speedster body has a substantial enough base that even if the welds were to crack and break, the body base itself would adequately support the chassis for many hard miles.
As a reference point, the rear cross member area is virtually untouched since it left the factory (except for the replacement bolt-on body hanger brackets). All other brackets and rivets all appear to be original!

Given that the OP's added photo of the underside of the rear cross member does not match my reference, I have to change my opinion and say all things considered, it appears to be a later modified frame. Albeit one someone made some effort to look nice and correct in that rear corner.

While it would not be as valuable as a genuine 1913 or earlier frame, I would imagine that many people would like to have it for an "assembled" early brass T project. As long as no serious defects, bad welding or other, are found upon close inspection? A little bit of pretty-it-up and correcting some of the obvious later/wrong holes could be a good frame for a less than really proper early brass T.

For whatever all that is worth.

[Allan]

Wayne, an often missed characteristic of "modified to look like" early cross members is the uplift on the outer ends of the rear cross member. The vertical faces are somewhat narrowed on the ends to accommodate the bracketry/folded tabs on the frame rails, so the bottom line of the cross member edge is lifted at the ends. That is why I asked to see a photo from the rear. There was a new old stock rear cross member advertised on the forum a few months ago which clearly showed this. Did the early cars ever have a spare tyre carrier?
I agree that with care, knowledge and attention to detail a pretty fare copy of an early frame is possible.

Allan from down under.

[DanTreace]

This chart is rather handy for frame rail i.d. as the square holes for the little carriage bolts varied over the years.

The frame in the OP is modified as noted. Have done similar with building my faux '09 using a fairly well used later frame, cut off the rear crossmember ends, welded up the spare rim holder holes, and added holes for butterfly bracket mounts.

chassis assembled April 06.jpg (59.47 KiB) Viewed 1749 times

Close up of another's work, bit more noticeable.

Rear early frame from underside.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Dan T's last photo shows the "different bracket" I alluded to in my first post, which my sort-of partially real and partially not 1913 frame has. Note how it extends on the inside back or the rear cross member toward the center almost five inches. It has two rivets which can be seen from behind the frame and might fool someone thinking they could be the spare tire bracket rivets. However, they are not from the spare tire bracket, and are in slightly different locations. The OP's underside photo shows rivets there, but the attach nothing. Whoever altered the frame likely put the rivets in to fill the holes.
Look a bit more closely at Dan T's picture and notice that rear bracket is larger than can be entirely seen, "L" shaped and folded over from the vertical rear to the the horizontal above the lower horizontal frame rail. It intersects the rear cross member, frame rail, and corner bracket, to add strength and stability to the whole rear of the frame.

Now, a question I would have? I know my frame, and several others I have looked at had the bracket inside that corner with the couple rivets visible from behind. However, frames were ordered in batches, and maybe from more than one company? Did all the mid1913 and earlier frames have that bracket? Or did some maybe not have that bracket?