What the heck are these things?

[SamInStL]

My '27 Roadster has been faithful and bulletproof for years but last Thursday on the way back from the July 4th Parade it started making AWFUL noises. Ran good in high gear and the mag worked fine but when I pushed the clutch in it sounded like two items were scraping against one another, BADLY scraping one another!! It wasn't magnets because it slowed and eventually stopped when the vehicle stopped with the engine still running. When I pulled the transmission inspection plate I found 2 large pieces, and a few smaller pieces, of unidentifiable metal in the screen. I've been in and out of this engine many times but don't recall ever seeing anything[image][/image] that looks like this. Am I having a senior moment?? What are these things?

[Rich P. Bingham]

Please post your pix again.

[SamInStL]

This is frustrating--what am I doing wrong?[image][/image]

[Steve Jelf]

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[1925 Touring]

Are your images too big for the forum? You may have to crop them slightly to get within the size limit.

[Steve Jelf]

Are your images too big for the forum? You may have to crop them slightly to get within the size limit.

Yes. Usually the forum software will take pictures full size, but sometimes you have to reduce them a little. When that happens there will be a yellow triangle in place of the green check. Click on the triangle and the software will tell you what to do.

[South Park Zephyr]

This is what Sam is trying to post

[speedytinc]

Bolt on Rod oil dipper?
Maybe turn the long piece 90 degrees to give us an idea of width.

[South Park Zephyr]

Additional photos from Sam

[RajoRacer]

I don't know but it sure as hell shouldn't have been in the transmission !!!

[John kuehn]

Could it be the remains of the internal oil line or funnel? Looking at it closer there are 3 evenly spaced of what may have been holes or some kind of cut out areas? That’s what I’m trying to understand what it might have been mounted in the transmission area.

Can’t figure it out.

[speedytinc]

Doesnt look like a rod dipper.
Is it possibly a piece of tubing, maybe from the internal oil funnel.
Otherwise its not familiar.

[South Park Zephyr]

I was with Sam when this occurred, the sound seemed to me to be most prevalent when shifting in between low and high gear. Lots of grinding and thumping. Once it was in gear the noise was almost non existent. The car ran on mag several miles back to his house after the noise started.

[John kuehn]

Whatever it was it was mounted somewhere and doesn’t look like a typical T part. Some kind of aftermarket part for ??????? Some type of clamp for ?????
For what it’s worth the hole spacing is 3/4” on the mystery part. You can tell by the measurement of the ruler.

[TFan]

Cam bearing clip? Jim

[JTT3]

Check your Bendex.

[South Park Zephyr]

I’m at Sam’s now
The parts look to be part of a bearing race.
What is puzzling is the size.
He has a rebuilt generator maybe it has a front roller bearing?

[bowerss2]

Have you guys dropped the inspection plate on the pan to look for more stuff yet?

Is the metal hardened like a bearing race?
Or softer?


Doesn't look like any t part. Could be some fod that fell in when the trans cover was off at some point.

[Mark Gregush]

The small piece looks like part of a set of distributor points of some type.

[South Park Zephyr]

Pulled the generator and found theses scars on the gear.
Any thoughts/ ideas?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

All I see on the gear is normal wear.

In the original posting it was stated, "... I found 2 large pieces, and a few smaller pieces...". Are there photos of all the pieces?

[TRDxB2]

This pure guess but looking at the pieces. Could it be be round object, somewhat like a cam shaft bearing clamp, with the end closed by button rivets. From the measurements proved as a length (1.75 inches), as a circumference, would result in an inside diameter of approximately .55 inches. The inside of the band appears to be channeled as well.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

This pure guess but looking at the pieces. Could it be be round object, like a cam shaft bearing clamp, with the end closed by button rivets. From the measurements proved as a length (1.75 inches), as a circumference, would result in an inside diameter of approximately .55 inches. The inside of the band appears to be channeled as well.

What camshaft bearing clamp have you ever seen that looks like that? You know, it doesn't necessarily have to be a Model T part. Anything could have fallen in there. Maybe some sort of key ring?

[TRDxB2]

This pure guess but looking at the pieces. Could it be be round object, like a cam shaft bearing clamp, with the end closed by button rivets. From the measurements proved as a length (1.75 inches), as a circumference, would result in an inside diameter of approximately .55 inches. The inside of the band appears to be channeled as well.

What camshaft bearing clamp have you ever seen that looks like that? You know, it doesn't necessarily have to be a Model T part. Anything could have fallen in there. Maybe some sort of key ring?

I was referring to the partial shape

[speedytinc]

This pure guess but looking at the pieces. Could it be be round object, like a cam shaft bearing clamp, with the end closed by button rivets. From the measurements proved as a length (1.75 inches), as a circumference, would result in an inside diameter of approximately .55 inches. The inside of the band appears to be channeled as well.

Dont think so. The cam bearing clips are spring steel & buried in the block casting. They are continuous with no tabs or spot welds or buttons.
The bearing would have to fall out.

The only thing I can think of is those accessory horseshoe attached oil funnels. There is welds to the tubing that kind of fit.
Doesnt visually fit to be an oil slinger, which would only be on a magnet-less motor.

[Matt in California]

It looks to me like a cotter pin. Perhaps a large one from a main bearing?

[Norman Kling]

I have never seen anything like that on a Model T engine or transmission. So it is not a necessary part and not needed. Kind of like Marvel Mystery oil. It runs on regular oil so why the mystery? Sometime in the past someone had an idea for an "improvement" which is just another cause for trouble. Throw it out or mount it on the wall.
Norm

[Mark Nunn]

Could that be part of a Patterson speedometer drive?

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/5 ... 1439205405

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/1 ... 37856.html

[Allan]

Not likely a Patterson drive part. The internal drive gear is two half circular brass pieces, the pickup gear is fibre and the shaft is about 1/4" solid rod. The rest is external.
Allan from down under.

[Poppie]

All, Those pieces of steel are the part remains of the 4th crankshaft main bearing ball cage, You may get away with a new universal joint ball cap if you can recover all the bits and pieces. Have fun....Neil.

[Allan]

That could well be the answer Neil. It may allow the car to still drive, albeit a bit noisily. The bits could have been right through the whole pan to be mangled like that.

Allan from down under.

[Poppie]

Its a Model T Allan,
As built by Ford it will get you home on 3 Coils and as proven with this problem, with 3 main bearings....n

[John kuehn]

I don’t think it’s part of a 4th main bearing cage. The diameter would be too small for that.
I still think it’s some kind of aftermarket part or what’s left of it. The only way to know for sure is to take the engine apart or at least the pan cover and see if any pieces are laying in it.

[bowerss2]

I don’t think it’s part of a 4th main bearing cage. The diameter would be too small for that.
I still think it’s some kind of aftermarket part or what’s left of it. The only way to know for sure is to take the engine apart or at least the pan cover and see if any pieces are laying in it.

I agree. Bearing cages are hardened, and tend to shatter, or break a lot of stuff if they end up getting pulled into gears. I'm guessing that is some FOD that got dropped into the transmission case when the inspection cover was off, or maybe some sort of aftermarket doohickey.

If it were me, id drop the inspection cover on the pan, clean it out, inspect what I could visually, go magnet fishing for anything else and after that if I didn't see anything scary, and it ran fine I wouldn't worry about it.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I don’t think it’s part of a 4th main bearing cage. The diameter would be too small for that.
I still think it’s some kind of aftermarket part or what’s left of it. The only way to know for sure is to take the engine apart or at least the pan cover and see if any pieces are laying in it.

I agree. Bearing cages are hardened, and tend to shatter, or break a lot of stuff if they end up getting pulled into gears. I'm guessing that is some FOD that got dropped into the transmission case when the inspection cover was off, or maybe some sort of aftermarket doohickey.

If it were me, id drop the inspection cover on the pan, clean it out, inspect what I could visually, go magnet fishing for anything else and after that if I didn't see anything scary, and it ran fine I wouldn't worry about it.

Totally agree!

[Allan]

"Bearing cases are hardened." Some may be. Some are bronze. Others are nylon. Many of the ones I busted as a kid to get the balls were certainly not. All they do is keep the balls spaced around the races, which are hardened.

Allan from down under.

[Oldav8tor]

I think Frank is onto something as far as the physical configuration of the piece - doesn't tell us what it came from unfortunately. Drop the cover, see what you find and be sure to report back.

These century old cars never cease to amaze and confound.....

[SamInStL]

SUSPICION CONFIRMED! It was a disintegrated ball bearing 4th main. The small pieces pictured earlier were probably part of the oil seal and the larger mangled circular piece is the outer cover found today after disassembly. I gotta believe that bearing started life with more balls than that but how they got out is a mystery. The space around the u-joint is loaded with schrapnel but I feel lucky that the problem seems to be confined to the 4th main/u-joint area and not the rest of the engine. I still can't figure out what was rubbing what to make that awful noise so I'll post updates if necessary. Also, sorry to take so long between posts but honey do's have bumping rights.

[Allan]

Glad you found it Sam, and pleased for you that the damage may well be rather confined.

Allan from down under.

[Peter Martin]

@ Neil Martin, diagnosis confirmed...

[Craig Leach]

Glad you found that before you became a member of the two piece crank club. Loosing a Fourth main can be a bummer.
Craig.

[South Park Zephyr]

Sam sent these to me, since his computer isn’t letting him post the pictures

[Poppie]

ALL,
As per the attached photos, it shows where the pieces of steel (ball bearing cage)came from as per my post July 10 . The lower photo shows the rubber covered seal that was forced (including with the other bearing pieces) out between the bearing / uni joint housing and the clutch pressure spring securing cup. I would assume that that is where the screeming/grinding noise came from.
It is also interesting to note, and the reason to tack weld the bearing to the shaft, Strange set up....Have fun....n

[Allan]

Neil, it may be a sleeve to bring the shaft diameter up to the bearing size that was tack welded in place. Certainly a strange set-up.

Allan from down under.