1913 Ford Paint colors.... Should we add dark green to the list?

[James_Lyons-WV]

For years, 1913 Model T's were thought to be dark blue. Then, it became more understood that many of the later cars were black. There are many restored dark blue cars that were actually black from the factory, but were painted blue based on what was known at the time.

Last week, I purchased the early 1913 Touring that John Kelso offered up for sale. This car was restored sometime in the early 1950's and it was painted dark green. If you are in a lit garage with no sunlight shining on it, it almost looks black. I've crawled all over and under this car, and I cannot find any traces of blue or black paint. I can, however, find traces of old green paint - paint that appears to be older than the cracking green that was applied in the 50's. This made me remember a Model T Times issue from back in 2007 where Mark Eyre restored a car for "Doc" Wallace, and during the stripping process, no dark blue or black paint was uncovered - only old dark green.

In conversations with Mark and Larry Smith, both guys (who are much more experienced than I) have seen dark green 13's. But no solid documentation exists either way to prove Ford did this on purpose.

Talking with Larry this morning over text, he suggested that this would be a good topic for the forum. I couldn't agree more. So with that, let the opinions roll, and tell us what you've seen and learned.

[hull 433]

It's much more likely your early 1913 car was repainted very early on, either by its original owner during normal upkeep, or to refresh the car prior to selling in the used car market. Both of these were very common. The old surfaces were often sanded before repainting, and the early paints will be very close in general composition to those used by Ford and its body suppliers, making it difficult to determine whether its 1913 factory or 1914-16 refresh.

Its not impossible that Ford or its body suppliers might have experimented with alternate colors in 1913, but given the commonality of aftermarket repaints, its useful to consider the statistical likelihood of a repaint first.

Congratulations on your car, it is a very good one.

[James_Lyons-WV]

Stan - Thanks for the comment. And the accolades on the car.
The only thing that makes me wonder is that most repaints back in the day didn't worry about doing a nut-and-bolt type restoration. Meaning, if this car was painted in 1920, the painter wouldn't have worried about taking the car apart to do the job. There would be obvious traces in the deepest recesses of the original Ford color. That's the issue here. No where, can you find Blue or black. Even up under the seat perches near the gas tank, etc. where nobody in 1920 would have cared about paint coverage. So it makes you wonder if the green was a factory job. Either way, it's interesting.

[TWrenn]

Maybe someone ordered it green from the factory. I doubt Ford ever "offered it up" after having switched from the dark green in 1911 to the dark dark blue up until late 1913 when they all went black. Just my thoughts.

[Rich P. Bingham]

This is interesting, the possibility of a factory green 1913 T.
Recall that in 1913, Ford was not making their own bodies. Baudette, Wilson and Fisher were the main suppliers, I have read there may have been some bodies supplied by other, smaller coach builders. My question, were these bodies delivered “in the white” to be trimmed and painted in fhe Ford factory, or did they arrive painted and trimmed, ready for the body drop ? If the coach builders provided them completely finished, who is to say they were all uniformly painted dark blue ?

[Russ_Furstnow]

Jim's car is beautiful, and I know it will be a great car for him. Regarding the paint color, though, I don't think Ford painted any of thieir cars green as late as 1913. Reading Bruce McCalley's book, "Model T Ford, The Car That Changed the World" on pages 555 and 556, Bruce quotes a December 1913 Ford Motor Company Factory letter that details the various colors of paints available, and green is not one of the colors. Jim stated that the car was restored in the 1950's, and I know the imformation we have today was not available then. Personally, I really like the green and the color makes it unique and beautiful.
I hope this helps, Russ Furstnow

[TRDxB2]

Some interesting facts about engine numbers during that period that could reflect year- excerpts from the MTFCA Encyclopedia
Always a possibility of an engine swap at some time or an original built in the "confused" period.

Would be good to nail down the engine number to rule out being in the "confused" engine number period. Don't doubt the owner's model year just want to see where it lies in the date list

1911-1912 Engine Serial Numbers
Model T serial numbers for the period between October 1911 and January 1913 have created considerable frustration. The only data that was available had been Ford's published figures which have not been found to be very accurate.

Recently, however, the Research Center at the Henry Ford Museum & Greenfield Village located a substantial amount of material which has opened new vistas in the evolution of the Model T Ford. Included in this material are some, but not all, of Ford's account books covering this period. These books contain the name of the dealers, what they bought, when they paid, and the dates and serial numbers of the Model T's they purchased.

Of course the date of sale to a customer is not necessarily the date the engine (or the car) was assembled, but generally it is quite close. Unfortunately, for us, Ford did not assemble engines to chassis and chassis to bodies in a strict numerical order so there are cases where the serial number versus the sales date is quite different from the actual date of engine manufacture. However, as in the 1909-1911 data published in the Model T Encyclopedia and the Model T Ford books, at least we have a ball-park figure far more accurate than the figures Ford published during the Model T era.

Even more interesting is the uncovering of the "B"-numbered engine information contained in the dealer account books. Previous literature has mentioned the fact that Ford made 12,247 B-numbered engines "during fiscal 1913 in Detroit." Apparently these engines were built in the late summer and early fall of calendar 1912 and seemed to have gone into the bulk of the cars assembled between October January 1913 (1913 models). It also seems as though these engines were placed in a pile and were installed in a chassis in a random order, apparently whichever number was easiest to take off the stack.
'''''
''''' continue reading from the link https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/11-12Ser.htm
a very long list of engine number by year/month are listed at the end of the discussion

[Chris Instness]

I have no evidence to say whether 1913s were ever green or not, but I have always thought this one looked good in green.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Religion? Politics? Who was involved in the JFK assassination? Even UFOs?
Some subjects just rile people up and seem to define some people. FACTS are not always a hundred percent true. Publications recent or from a hundred years ago may not be accurate? But trod upon some people's beliefs and watch out!

The antique automobile hobby has always had its share of fad beliefs, misleading legends, and bad habits. Ironically, incorrect colors is one of those bad habits. Popular opinion seems to have a way of rolling around, changing this way and that, then meandering back through where it has been before. Although I do not consider myself a "purist" in the purest sense of the word? I have always believed that most antique automobiles should restored back to colors at least close to ones originally used on the given automobile. Brass era, nickel era, and pre-war have all succumbed to fad colors. White on cars that never were, two-tone brown on cars that never were, even silver and purple blew through the pre-war cars a few years back. Fifteen to thirty years later owners wonder why nobody wants to buy their horrible looking car. (Two-tone brown was a legitimate option on a number of automobiles through the years, and if properly done on an appropriate car looks great!)
Over on the AACA a couple days ago a purplish-pink and cream 1920s Packard touring car was being discussed. Two weeks before that it was it was a Marmon touring car painted Halloween orange and cream. There are hundreds of wonderful antique automobiles that could be incredibly beautiful if only the people restoring them had chosen appropriate era colors.
Maybe it should be "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"? But the fact is that restoring to an appropriate color will appeal to a lot more hobbyists than choosing some weird off-the-wall combination than most hobbyists would want to be caught dead in.
But much of that is wandering into drift territory.

I have always often found myself opposing "prevailing opinion". Back when I was a kid getting into this hobby, a lot less was actually known about our beloved antique cars, and especially the wonderful model T. I remember being told things that even as a kid I did not think could be correct. And while most people in the hobby were trying to find the "best original car" they could buy in order to restore it? I thought those nice original cars should have been preserved, and cars that needed restorations were the ones that should have been restored. Today, I am even more convinced that I was right and a lot of other people were wrong.
Today, there aren't enough solid original cars to look at and see "what was". But I remember a lot of cars I personally saw. And I remember some cars that were heavily discussed at club meetings.

"Fast Frank" was well known and respected by many people. He often spoke of the 1913 touring car he had restored years earlier. I never saw that car myself, but Frank and I discussed it on several occasions. He painted that 1913 touring car red! He was adamant that it had been red originally, and red was what he painted it because that was what it was originally.
Now, I think we all know that cars were repainted for all sorts of reasons way back in the days. Some people wanted other colors, the era paints did not hold up well out in the weather, keep the car nicer for just another year or two? Lots of good reasons. Local harness and carriage shops would paint cars, and lots of people painted their own cars. But is that the right answer to all the many cars out there that appear to have been other than the recorded common color?
As I said, I never saw Frank's red 1913 myself, however, from what Frank has said, and what several people that I have met and spoken with about that 1913, close friends of Frank's that did see the car before it was restored, and saw the car apart before and during the restoration? In several deep recesses of the car, under upholstery that would not in any likely way have been removed in earlier years? That car was red.

Is that actual proof? No. But it does raise some questions.
This question of were some 1913s originally painted a very dark green has been around for a very long time. And it seems to keep coming up occasionally. Around fifty years ago, our local model T club discussed this question on and off for several years. And that lead to some personal experiences for me.
Three different times, at meets, swap meets or shows of one sort or another, I got up close and personally saw three different 1913 model T touring cars in very original condition, that all appeared to have been originally very dark green. I got to look under the floor mats. I got to look under the seat cushions. On one, I got a very good look behind disintegrating original upholstery that almost certainly had not been exposed since the car left Highland Park! That car was green before the upholstery was installed.
Unfortunately, as nice as that very original car was, I know for a fact (later discussed at a club meeting, I did not know the owner personally), that that car was receiving a full frame off restoration two years later. (It should have been preserved!)

The truth is that we may never know whether or not some 1913 model Ts left the factory in green? Or did some 1915 to about 1918(?) center-door sedans and couplets leave the factory in a very dark blue? The currently available records appear to be ambiguous. Some records do suggest that nothing of the sort ever happened? Maybe?

One thing for certain. The model T Ford may be the ultimate icon for the advent of mass production. But Ford never did make certain that each and every one was exactly perfectly alike!

For me? If I see a nice 1916 model T couplet in a dark blue, or a 1913 model T in a pleasantly dark green? I will smile and accept them as a possibly correct anomaly. But I still don't like to see too many model Ts painted incorrect colors. While anomalies may be a legitimate part of history? Part of the charm of the black era model Ts is their color. Kind of an odd their lack of color is what is so colorful about them thing?

But that is me.

[Dan Hatch]

Here is something I picked up at Hershey years ago. I got it for the wheel. Back then getting wood fellow wheels done was almost impossible. Could not bring myself to strip it.
Shows colors for aftermarket paint.

[James_Lyons-WV]

Russ/Wayne/All.... Thanks for the comments and opinions. Keep them coming.

This is the second 1913 I've owned. I bought it because last year, I sold the first one I had bought and I regretted it the minute it rolled down the driveway. Fortunately, I know where it is and it's in good hands. Anyway, I bought my first one almost 15 years ago. When I got it, Larry Smith and I had many discussions about it regarding color. It had been restored in the 1970's, but only a cosmetic paint job and much of the undercarriage was left untouched. The car was painted black. In any event, I decided to replace the crappy vinyl upholstery with nice leather from Classtiques so Larry told me to carefully check the inside of the tub for the original dark blue color. When I got the upholstery out, there was no blue paint to be found. The car was never blue. It was black. I rolled it out into the sunlight to see what that did and it did nothing to that black paint other than show me just how un-blue it was. What does all this tell me? I don't know, other than for all the documentation we see that lists paint colors for the 13's as blue, there sure are a whole lot of black 13's out there.

The jury is still out on this car. I have no intention of doing anything drastic. I like the green, but even more, I like the fact that it is an older "freshening" of an unmolested car. The original KW coil box is there along with the original Dodge-bro's components. It also has the reinforcements on the inside of the rear door sills and the original 4-ball carburetor. Not only that, it runs perfect. So I intend to spend the coming months studying the car and looking for evidence of what color it was originally. Regardless of what I find, it will probably stay as you see it, and will be driven and enjoyed.

Speaking of blue, does anyone have some nice photographs of an unrestored blue car that is in nice shape and has large amounts of blue paint left? I've never seen one.

[TrentB]

“The Customer Can Have Any Color He Wants So Long As Its Black: A Study of the Materials and Methods Use to Paint the Model T,” The Vintage Ford, vol. 32, no. 6 (November-December 1997) pp. 26-41.

[rickd]

My two cents. The 1913 car was less than two years removed from the 1911 models that had a limited offering of a green color. The Encyclopedia Car Description section for 1911 describes this green color. I think it is likely during this era that buyers of the 1913 found green attractive and asked their Ford Agency to deliver their new 1913 in green. Did the body builder, Ford, or the Ford Agency paint it green? I don't know but Henry was focused on costs and standardized applications of that 1913 dark blue so I think it could have been done at the body builder or Ford Agency level.

Too often we hang our hats on certain historical documents that say green was not available in 1913. Period. Then every so often another 1913 shows up that appears to have been originally painted green. Just relying on the historical documents ignores the preponderance of information we are seeing that some of these cars were delivered or re-painted prior to their delivery in green.

I collect other Fords as well as Model Ts and one thing I have certainly learned is that I am learning something new all the time about these cars. Having said that I think it is time in the Model T hobby to consider that green was a probable color for new 1913 cars. I would even go so far to suggest that we modify the Judging Standards and other formal Judging Documents to recognize the availability of a green color in 1913.

[hull 433]

One thought that might explain what you are finding outside of an in-service repaint, is an assembly plant painting of a body per request. Assembly plants received bodies in the white on occasion, painting and trimming them on site. This hypothesis would depend on the age of your car within calendar 1913 and the development of assembly plants, which I think seem to be about the same year (I have family in town so I can't look it up myself). Some plants did about fifty cars a day, and until 1915 it was possible to order a car directly from Ford or (I think) its assembly plants. Thats just a hypothesis, no evidence for any of it.

Don't be surprised at the lack of blue or a color inside the body. In general, the body color was used on the outside alone, with the interior framing and fittings in black. We're so used to modern cars with the color sprayed everywhere, and restorations that follow the same mindset, that it's easy to forget the coach builders' and painters' traditions that survived onto early cars.

That brings up another question - was the evidence for early green paint on your car on the body alone, or was it elsewhere, on the frame or axles, etc.? Ford adopted black for the frames by 1911, and black fenders (and possibly hood) by 1913. This left the color parts to the body and wheels. Traces or descriptions of early green paint on the frame would almost certainly indicate a repaint.

As far as Ford was concerned, it was more efficient for them to accommodate a customer request on the dealer's end than the factory's, so the dealer would have to handle, for a extra charge, repainting or modifying the car to suit the customer's desires.

So we have some potentials:
*Green painted body from an assembly plant somewhere, one that gets bodies in the white and finishes them on site
*Customer request for an overall painted green car, using new car painted at dealer's request, possibly while still apart from delivery
*Green paint applied during early service life, or when car was prepared for resale (statistically the most common and likely)

You really do have an excellent machine, but then you have an eye for them. Keep up the good work!

[Wayne Sheldon]

I think Stan Gadson has a good handle on the probable situation of the past. The one I got to peek inside the upholstery had very little painting inside the body panels. Some very thin flat probably primer coat with a fair amount of green within an inch of where the upholstery was nailed into place. I also saw drips that looked to have fallen and run down inside farther down on the inside of the panel.

As for the branch assembly plants painting the bodies as part of the assembly process? This I have read and believe to have been done at least sometimes. I don't have a copy of it, however there is a well known photo of "Ford employees" painting a line of early touring car bodies. While often partially identified, what usually isn't mentioned is that the photo was taken at one of the branch assembly plants. Or so it says in a book in which it was published.

It makes sense that a dealer could probably request a special color from the local assembly plant manager. And if they still had a few gallons of green paint left? Why not?

That sure is a great green thirteen!

[EricMac]

As many readers of this forum know, I own a very early 1913 (car #152811, thus built in late 1912) that has a history dating back into the 1940s. It was a "city car" sold new in New York City. Sometime many, many years prior to my ownership the car was painted black with either a brush or possibly even a broom. They did a terrible job. That being said, the old paint is now flaking off the car in sheets, revealing another color underneath the black. I'll leave it up to you to decide what you think the color was but I think it was green. Note the two colors on the door skin and the comparison between black door hinge and the door jam next to it. Not trying to create dissent but just showing my car and what it is now.

13 front

13 Door

13 door jam

[michaelb2296]

Gray, green, blue, red, and black! Whatever you want$$

And “rust” color

But, absolutely NO white tires! You can have any color you want as long as it’s “gray!”

[EricMac]

The rust took a bit of time to appear. It is not a factory original color. That came later on Chevy Vegas!

[Model T Mark]

I have this one it’s early around body number 191xxx. It doesn’t have the reinforced rear door brakets and has knurled spark and throttle levers and it appear to have the original paint and upholstery and it is black. Notice the all brass lamps and billed front fenders although one has been replaced.

[hull 433]

Here’s something I’d forgotten about. In late 1913, the Seattle assembly plant would rebuild older Fords for a charge. This cannot have lasted long but it indicates a kind of factory service that might have accommodated a request a special color, especially one formerly used by Ford. I don’t know if something like this was offered by other assembly plants. A 1915 article mentioned that the Seattle assembly plant production was initially low, from 18 to 20 cars a day. A rebuilding service might have filled up both vacant space and ledger books.

[Luxford]

both dark green and dark blue require a black undercoat so that the actual color coat will cover with fewer coats.
Both colors have terrible opacity ( the ability to block out)
Black undercoat is always used under both colors never a grey or white primer
As has been noted black under the upholstery not only pretects the steel panels but is there after the upholstery is installed and the final color coats applied.
In Australia the Ford factory body was considered "Ugly" and people paid extra to have a more stylish body added painted all different colors (chassis had new bodies built on the when new) or had the factory body repainted to at least make it different from the normal dark blue then black Ford.
Canadin Fords were blue-green (thats blue with a green Hue- not blue or green) until 1918.
Here is part of a Ford Canada chart showing the colors up until 1920.
and photo's sent to me this month of a 1913 Ford painted grey, chassis, wheels, axles, steering wheel and column and body. before assembly and finished.

[James_Lyons-WV]

Great conversation and thanks to everyone who has replied. I've been searching a little harder and I have found some spots that have "green under green". The largest area is the wood at the bottom of the doors where the top layer is flaking off. I have found no dark blue anywhere but have found black inside the body - such as in the seat wells. I also found some dark green under the top layer of paint on the wood spokes. But none of what I found was enough of a quantity, nor undeniable proof that this car was originally green. The one thing I don't like about my photo's above is that the phone camera makes it look much lighter than it really is. It's a very dark - almost black - green. The shade is such that it could be a direct counterpart to the blue - almost black - color of the era.

[sweet23]

What color you want this old car mam ?

[George Mills]

Was there a 1913 Green? Could be...as it aged.

There was a multi coat system in use in that era. There was what was called 'the ground' coat and that was called that because it was the BASE coat. Usually it was white, with ground pigment, generally thought to be black but...but...there were probably several generations of Black BEFORE Ford decided on Gilsonite, the blackest of blacks possible at the time. There were black/reds, black/blues, and black/yellows just as there are today.

Let's stay with the black/blue hue for a moment. in 1913 what would the blue portion of the pigment be? Because of things going on in Prussia at the time...Prussian Blue powder was costing about 4-5 times per pound than other pigments. This led to trying all kinds of other pigment substitutes to make things 'bluish' in hue/haze. Some of those had a knack for self-oxidizing under the varnish coats. And...if they were natural mineral pigments what color does this oxidation take on? YELLOW. Yellow and Blue make... This could and I repeat could make the ground coat have a greenish cast to it. That's one!

Two...varnish of the day bordered on alchemy! Mix two batches of varnish that were made with different oils? Stuff happened. Try to adulterate a varnish of the day and what did the varnish layer do? Shoot off YELLOW as it dried fully and cured.

Three...environment. The oils of the day used in varnish took up to 6 months to cure completely. Skin coat dry in a matter of days...nail polish hard, that 6 months, they were still experimenting with drying agents. Now...speaking of alchemy...if you take wetted/rewetted oil varnish and put it in a room where the illumination was coal gas, what happened? The varnish would shoot off in the YELLOW-ish in direction as it contaminated with the environment. Wanna talk about a chicken coop storage situation? We all know that placed in a coop today with bare steel or overshoot as a finish the surface gets fuzzy's and pits all by itself that will never hold paint good unless the entire bare surface is prepped first. Know what else the aroma of the chicken poop can do? Turn certain oily varnishes...YELLOW-ish!

So...IF there was a black/blue ground coat...and...IF the varnish coats got 'pickled' by mama nature, then when they were dry/dry original multicoat finishes COULD appear GREEN-ish.

Now...how do ya figure this all out? Find a greenish place that isn't in a prominent place. Start with mineral oil and 600 grit cloth to make a dime sized 'wallow' with the center being bare steel. Again with 800 and oil making it bigger...then 1000, etc. etc, finishing up with 2000 with oil at the size between a nickel and a quarter...whats left should reflect back like an old mood ring and you should be able to SEE each and every layer like rings on a tree...and because you used 'oil' those pigmented layers should look like new.

[James_Lyons-WV]

George - I took your advice and sanded a small area. I started a new thread (1913 Ford Touring... If it ain't green, what is it?)
I think it's safe to assume the car wasn't green based on the one sanding experiment I did. Here's a photo, but the description of what I did is in the other post.