26 T Clutch not disengaging

[RecklessKelly]

New to me car that drove off of the trailer and into my driveway by the PE. From the first attempt at me driving it, it would start and idle but stall when I tried to take off in low.
I made all of the checks and settings for a free neutral from the service manual, posts I've read here, and the Ford Fix. I cant get the car in free neutral. I have the rear end on jack stands and the brake rods disconnected from the parking brake lever. The rear wheels wont turrn freely with the parking brake vertical. I have the correct distances from pedals to floorboard and the bands do have some slack when the parking brake lever is set to neutral. The clutch cam bolt is adjusted to the extent that the clutch shaft lever will turn, which is only about 1/4-3/8".
I have the 13/16" clutch collar gap tool. The collar gap is 3/16" to 5/16" greater than the 13/16" tool, depending on if the lever is set vertical or forward. I havent touched the finger screw adjustment. I dont know if someone adjusted to this gap for a reason.
Could the clutch pack be jammed internally? Is the 13/16" gap set when the lever is in neutral or forward?

[Norman Kling]

If the car ran when you took it off the trailer but the clutch was stuck after being parked, the first thing to do is free up the disks before trying to make any adjustment. If the car was parked for a long time with the parking brake lever pulled back it will allow oil to enter between the disks. Depending on the weight of the oil, it can get thicker when it is cold and cause the disks to stick together. It is best to park for extended periods with the lever forward. Choc the wheels so the car will not roll. Then just before you start the engine pull back the lever and it will usually be free. This is what I would do and it should work. Jack up the wheels and start the engine. Run it above an idle and then try to use reverse and low. If that doesn't unstick the disks, then you have a bad adjustment. You also need an oil change to an oil such as 10W30. Some people think the old type non detergent single grade oil is better and if the engine is using oil, they change to a higher weight oil. You need a lighter weight for starting and because of the oil system which has no oil pump needs to be able to flow easily.
Anyway, since the car ran in low gear and reverse when you got it, I don't think you need any adjustment. Just need to free up the disks.
Norm

[RecklessKelly]

Would the plate binding you describe prevent the clutch shaft from rotating enough to fully disengage? It was frequently used and I tried to drive it right away. I will try your advice but it it seems like the clutch lever shaft should rotate alot more as the low clevis was distorting when the pedal was pushed down.
It has 10W30 rotella 4t in it.

[speedytinc]

The 13/16 dimension is with the brake lever forward. That spring pressure is what locks into hi gear. when you pull the lever into a vertical position the 3 fingers will be loose. 3 finger contact must be fairly equal. As you pull the lever back, wiggle the fingers, They should feel equally loose. With the lever vertical the 3 fingers will have 1/8" or more movement.
Your statement about low clevis distorting questions the correct linkage adjustment. Recheck & compensate for worn/sloppy linkage holes & shafts/pins.
If the clutch disks are oil locked, getting the motor hot & alternating reverse & low pedal while one wheel is up should loosen the disks & wash em out with your clean lighter motor oil. Get in the habit of storing your T with the parking lever forward to prevent oil locking.

I see you have a wide drum brake. Disks getting stuck in worn drum notches is not likely IF the drum has the 6 steel shoes commonly found in wide drums. Its possible that those shoes were not installed, or its an early wide drum made without the shoes & badly worn. You might be able to see if those shoes are in place with an endoscope.
I came across a 13 T with a stuck clutch pack. My assumption was the drum was severely notched, sticking the disks in the typical fashion. Turned out Grandpa had replaced the brake drum with a NOS later shoe requiring drum & the disks chewed up the narrower disk retainers & stuck in the shoe lock notches. Proving any stupid thing is possible.

[RecklessKelly]

Speedyfingers I will check those indications.

[speedytinc]

Your best bet may be to have a seasoned T owner pay you a visit.
That person is likely to recognize the issues with starting & a test drive right quick.

[RecklessKelly]

My problem is that when the parking brake is set to neutral, the parking brakes actuate.

[RecklessKelly]

There must be a sweet spot on the cam so the car can be pushed around, between high and parking brake activation?

[Mark Chaffin]

It appears in the picture shown your brass clutch collar cam is in the wrong position. It should be position in the slot above the slot closest to the clutch fingers. It looks like the ring is between the spring and on top of the clutch collar.

[Allan]

Well spotted Mark, I think! The question is how in heaven could it have been fitted that way?

Allan from down under.

[RecklessKelly]

I have to take a look in there. Would that limit the clutch from disengaging? To correct it, must the whole trans be torn down, out of the car?

[Moxie26]

To help with Mark Chaffin's 's fix, the transmission cover has to be removed. And that involves disconnecting your battery, removing the starter, removing your band adjustments so that the hogshead can be lifted and to reposition the collar on the clutch adjustment. It would help to have someone with Model T knowledge to help and also an extra set of hands....... Your picture shows a relatively dry transmission, I would think it hasn't been run in some time because of that problem that you found. Suggestion of 10w30 multi weight oil will help engine performance.

[speedytinc]

Not seeing what Mark is seeing. I see something a different color in front of the clutch spring, but the throw out arms don't lineup to it.
Let's see a picture from a few inches further back of the throw out arms & brass collar in the throw out bearing (double shiv pulley) to be sure.
Wasn't this T delivered & driven off the trailer fully functional?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

From the first attempt at me driving it, it would start and idle but stall when I tried to take off in low.
I made all of the checks and settings for a free neutral from the service manual, posts I've read here, and the Ford Fix. I can't get the car in free neutral.

Your initial statement is very contradictory. If you can start the car, and have it idle, you must have a free, (or somewhat free), neutral. Most of the advice you've been given is with the assumption that the high speed clutch is essentially locked up. I can't see how that could be the case when you're able to start & idle.

Your real issue appears to be that when you try to take off in low, the car stalls. Is that correct? If that's true, then the problem is not a "free neutral" issue.

[RecklessKelly]

Moxie, The PE said he was using 10W40 in it. I havent checked the level yet but will before I start it again.
Speedy, I will get some pics tonight. I rode in the car when I looked at it and it was driven up my hill and parked but when I tried to drive it into my garage later that afternoon it was stalling when put in low. Probably due to brake actuation. I couldnt push the car in until I disconnected the brake rods and got two others to help and it was tough pushing. Dont ask why all of a sudden there is an issue.
Seems like clutch is not fully disengaged or may be at the limit if its travel. When the lever is set to neutral the brakes were still engaged. That seems to be the main issue. There isnt enough thread remaining in the brake rod clevis to engage the clutch cam when the lever is straight up. With the axle on stands, the left wheel will rotate but the right one is mostly locked up. I cleaned the brake plates around the oil caps that were grungy and tonight I will oil the brake cam shafts and check for full action.

[speedytinc]

When you attempt to drive engaging low, try with it running, find the neutral spot with your foot on low/high pedal. There is a neutral spot between the 2 travel extremes. Ease off the brake lever while keeping your low/high pedal in the same position. Foot pressure to hold the pedal.
The car may want to creep a little. You can use the foot brake pedal to hold the car. Engage low pedal for forward drive after releasing foot brake.
Try this a few times & get back with a description of any issues.
I understand you have parking brake issues. Fixing will make operations easier, as you can engage low & reverse with the lever vertical or near with a free motor & the brakes not holding.

A model T takes some learning to master its operation. I helps to read the operating manual & be familiar with the T1 service manual.

[RecklessKelly]

I couldnt find that sweet spot on the pedal. I read the Ford manual, I have the original printing along with the service manual. I will try when I get the brakes sorted.
Just curious what effect the misplaced collar has on the clutch operation. Someone had the HH off, there are traces of old white sealant around it. The pedal thru holes are worn. I would like to find a machinist who could rebush them and add seal counterbores, at some point.

[speedytinc]

If the collar is mislocated, thats a serious issue.
I cant tell with the angle of the one picture. I am not clear enough to say it needs to all come apart.
Take a shot with the camera further back & further forward, as I suggested previously.

[RecklessKelly]

More aft of the pedal shaft? I'll get some shots tonight. I have a borescope also.

[RajoRacer]

The sliding clutch collar is positioned so that the spring itself seats on the "wide" flat side of the collar with the adjustment screws riding on the end with the bevel - I don't believe one can insert the throw-out fork into the wrong slot & replace the cover - looks correct to me.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

The sliding clutch collar is positioned so that the spring itself seats on the "wide" flat side of the collar with the adjustment screws riding on the end with the bevel - I don't believe one can insert the throw-out fork into the wrong slot & replace the cover - looks correct to me.

I agree. I have had the collar drop into the wrong slot while installing the hogshead. Things bound up and the hogshead would not go down all the way. Plus, if the OP's collar does somehow happen to be in the wrong place, I believe he'd have some very obvious problems, beyond his current issues. Still, the photo that's been requested may still be very helpful.

To the OP, here is what we're trying confirm...

THIS...

1.png (498.46 KiB) Viewed 2614 times

FITS IN HERE...

2.png (460.18 KiB) Viewed 2614 times

[RecklessKelly]

Gotcha! I'm learning so much about T's, thats the fun part of the hobby.

[RecklessKelly]

Pic of the clutch.

[RecklessKelly]

Another pic.

[RecklessKelly]

I cant get any more pics to load up.

[RVA23T]

I cant get any more pics to load up.

Here are 2 more of Recklesskelly's pictures Horseshoe looks to be in the correct position to me.

Rktrans 1.jpeg (64.24 KiB) Viewed 2490 times

Rktrans2.jpeg (37.93 KiB) Viewed 2490 times

[speedytinc]

Agreed. The different colored ring appears to be the end of the spring.

[RVA23T]

With the inspection cover off, can you see the clutch lever move when you move the parking/clutch lever from "parking brake" position {close to your seat bench} to the fully foward {towards the fire wall}?
I'm thinking the Ramp bolt on the lever might be out of adjustment and you can only get free/neutral on you left/clutch pedal.

[RecklessKelly]

The ramp bolt was worn down, it had a bevel on the end from wear. I took it out and filed it smooth and then emery paper to the ramp and bolt end, turned it down to get full clutch shaft rotation when on the ramp with the bevel of the bolt end mating to the shoe and a bit of grease. I had replaced the bolt but it ran pretty rough on the shoe. With the bevel profile on the bolt, less wear on the shoe is a good thing?

[RecklessKelly]

With the clevis pin removed from the the clutch arm, I turned the clutch shaft to full disengagement with a vise grip and marked a line on the shaft and the HH. I set the bolt to get actuation at the mark. The brake lever is canted back slightly when the bolt is just on the shoe. In that position the brake rods were pulling. To put it right, I only end up with two rod threads in the brake rod clevis. There isnt an adjustment on the brake lever, it looks to be riveted onto the cross shaft.

[RecklessKelly]

I found these drop forged yokes on ebay, They are 1/2" longer than the original. I need .60 longer to get 8 rod threads into the yoke with the cam and bolt positioned as above. These yokes should give me 5 threads in. Im not sure if there is enough rod travel to get the lever full forward so the bolt clears the other end of the shoe without them bending, I have to put the rods on to check that. Did a '26 come stock with fiber brake linings?

[JTT3]

Yes on the lined parking brakes of a 1926-1927. Your low band seems tight on the drum though it may not be. The spring seems to be compressed more than usual but it may be due to a worn band lining that was adjusted to compensate.
May be nothing but is that a crack in the brake drum? Can’t really tell, may be residue?

[RecklessKelly]

Its a rust stain. The low pedal is an inch above the floorboard when pressed snd the left side is a little loose. The right side looks tight against the drum.

[RecklessKelly]

After oiling the brake cam shafts and moving the rods in and out a bunch of times, the wheels freed up to spin in neutral. That was the major problem.

[RVA23T]

Congratulations!
And thanks for reporting back.
I can rest my brain now.

[Allan]

John, I am surprised no-one suggested taking the bolt out of the clutch shaft and putting it in from the bottom. That will give you a much larger contact area on the cam and reduce the wearing of a channel in its surface. I radius the bolt head on two opposite flats so you have a more gentle lead in on the cam. The nut is then on the top and and serves the same locking purpose as before.

This might help.
Allan from down under,

[RecklessKelly]

Allan, That was what I was thinking too as far as wear, but wouldnt that essentially elongate the shoe? It may require the brake lever to be pushed further forward, bending the brake rods.
I think the angle profile on the bolt end is a good idea along with a little grease. I could losen it a turn or two so the clutch shaft isnt so stressed.
I have the oil draining now. It was overfilled and the excess oil looked a little dirty. I could have driven the car today except that I left one of the yokes at work when I was measuring it. I think the original yokes are fine now with the proper brake action.
I may replace the starter bendix cover gasket today as it looks like a big leaker.
I was a little stumped last night when I set the brake lever forward and expected the wheels to be engine locked. Both wheels still spun by hand. I had to get up at 6:00 and try removing the jack stands and sure enough its all good.

[RajoRacer]

If one makes a habit of pulling the h.b. lever on with their foot depressing the low pedal, there's no need to reverse the throw-out bolt & it also extends the life of your pawl & ratchet too !

[RecklessKelly]

Yes it eliminates the drag on those parts.