Not running - need direction

[varmint]

The engine is not running and I suspect it’s both a fuel and spark issue, maybe valves. I hear about three to eight hits and then it dies. Sometimes it runs on three cylinders. The choke rod to the dash was dragging against the hot pipe to the carburetor but I fixed that. Two weeks ago the carb poured out gasoline when I switched the flow from the sediment bowl to “ON” but now that problem rectified itself most likely from fresh fuel cleaning away any varnish. Having done the above, I resumed with electrical diagnostics. There are four new coils and all new wiring harnesses.

With ignition switch to BAT, slow hand cranking does not always result in buzzing coils. I pulled out the VOM and started with basics. Ignition to OFF. All four cylinders at the coil box commutator wires were shorted to ground and each other. Silly me, the coils in each coil are connected to the 6v positive which are spliced together. I removed the four coils, tested again. None of the 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 2-3, 2-4, 3-4 are shorted together nor to ground. Tested the four spark plug wires, each passes with continuity.

Fuel and ignition OFF. While the coils were still removed, I clamped one VOM probe to ground and clamped the other probe to each of the four timer contacts at the coil box and hand cranked the engine. I confirmed a 1-2-4-3 firing order. The wires are also in the correct color order. I confirmed continuity of the wiring harness from the timer to the coil box. I expect a beeping VOM exactly every half turn of the crank but that’s not what I am getting. If fact it cuts in and out in the range at each half crank. The same thing happens with the coils back in the box and ignition ON. The coils buzz somewhere around each half crank but also cut out.

“Olivia Hardy” (improved Coupe) has a New Day timer that I cleaned up. The four contacts on the surface were cleaned up. At some point, I was advised to remove the brass plate, which I did. Early this year, it used to run for a minute before it ran out of gas.

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[RajoRacer]

Vern - are those "new" as in reproduction coils or "new" as in rebuilt by a reputable coilman ? I've not ran across any "new" repro coils that had been properly adjusted, first off. The contacts in the timer appear discolored - perhaps a little polishing to shine them back up.

[varmint]

The coils are "new" to me. Here are my "old" coils.

Reputable? I don't know.
Properly adjusted? I don't know.
My paperwork says "The Coil Doctor", "tuned to perfection using ECCT".
I can get a better photo of the contacts.

[NoelChico]

If they're from "the Coil Doctor", they are adjusted right. Was the engine running recently? compression? I agree that those timer contacts need polishing. Check the timer rotor. You need fuel, timing, and compression.

[big2bird]

I have found when starter cars sit, the switch can lose continuity. Cycle it a bunch, or open and clean it.

[varmint]

Was the engine running recently? No, it's been at least six months.
Compression? Will check.
Check the timer rotor. Here is the brush. It wobbled back and forth. I squeezed the sides to remove play and it's three times better.

IMG_20241105_203038045.jpg (35.13 KiB) Viewed 7184 times

The switch can lose continuity. When I found problems using the VOM, the switch was out of the equation as it was OFF and I was bypassing all use of 6v by testing only the ground side. Ground to rotor to contact surface to wire terminals at the coil box. But, if Vern honestly doesn't know what "new" is, I'm certainly willing to cycle and clean it.

The contacts in the timer appear discolored - perhaps a little polishing to shine them back up.
I have only run the engine a total of maybe five minutes since that photo. But when I opened it up tonight, it was way worse.

I will be using the idea I got from Steve Jelf. Glue should be set in the morning.

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[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Was the engine running recently? No, it's been at least six months.
Compression? Will check.
Check the timer rotor. Here is the brush. It wobbled back and forth. I squeezed the sides to remove play and it's three times better.
IMG_20241105_203038045.jpg

The end of the brush does not appear to square to the body of the brush, (maybe just the perspective of the photo?). If the brush was allowed to lean and to wear to one side, the out-of-square condition makes sense. Now, however, you have taken away the extra play and the brush no longer leans. That's fine, but now, with the end not square, the brush face will not fully contact the timer body. It would make your timing way too late. I would suggest putting it back together and checking your timing.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Try “hot wiring” the coil box. That is eliminating the switch. Send power directly to the coil box positive terminal. Remove the mag post connection before doing this to prevent any accidents. Don’t sweat compression just yet as you seem to have an ign. problem. It kind of sounds like a tenuous electrical connection. Something cutting out when a load is applied.

[TXGOAT2]

If the timer brush is squeezed too much, it may fail to make reliable contact with the timer cover. The ones I have seen have some wobble between the brush and brush holder. If the spring behind the brush is too short or too weak, it may cause poor contact.

[Steve Jelf]

Sometimes it runs on three cylinders.

One time I had that from a bad/intermittent spark plug.
Another time the cure was a better New Day rotor.
I would also check all connections for a loose wire.

[Norman Kling]

The second picture of the timer cap looks like the brush was scraping and probably bouncing. A good New Timer will go a long time without any service, but yours doesn't look very good. I have a new day on one of mine and it works well. When running on battery, the coils should buzz from the time the brush makes contact till it breaks contact. It should be constant buzz at any position between those points. However on magneto, it will buzz when the sine wave reaches the amperage the coil was set for. Another good one is Anderson. That kind also lasts a long time but be careful not to move any of the contacts by letting the nut closest to the timer get loose when you connect the wires. I have never had a roller timer on any of my cars, so couldn't give any experience with those. Anyway, If the passages between the gas tank and the carburetor are clean and the float does not stick, the only other thing I can think of which would cause carburetor problems would be worn adjustment needles or clogged idle passages in the carburetor. The NH gives the least trouble of the carburetors, but some of the others give you finer adjustment for different speeds.
Anyway, as mentioned above, check compression and sticky valves. Check your timer, and also be sure the carburetor is adjusted correctly.

[speedytinc]

Possibly the needle is sticking closed?
After a choke pull do you get an overflow of fuel ?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I hear about three to eight hits and then it dies.

A symptom of too late/retarded timing. Again, check your timing.

[TRDxB2]

You said you get a few hits (7-8) when starting on battery, have you checked your battery?

[Mark Nunn]

Is the thrust of your front cam bearing good? I had a problem with too much cam thrust (worn bearing) that caused issues. I doubt that the spring could not overcome thrust but that possibility had not been mentioned yet.

[varmint]

with the end not square: Correct Jerry, it's not square. Yes I agree about delayed timing.

Don’t sweat compression just yet: I looked for my pipe plug tool this morning and have not found it yet...that I attach to my gauge. So, it will wait

If the timer brush is squeezed too much: It freely moves in and out by spring pressure. But I don't know what correct spring pressure is.

One time I had that from a bad/intermittent spark plug: I don't think I have a spare. Will have to check. I do have a spare coil.
Another time the cure was a better New Day rotor: I am willing to replace the entire timer, even for a roller style.
I would also check all connections for a loose wire: Done that, wire connections are good. Even cleaned contacts on timer.

IMG_20241106_062022170.jpg (30.42 KiB) Viewed 6938 times

Steve, made a copy of your tool from walnut and 60 grit.

IMG_20241106_061023314.jpg (35.08 KiB) Viewed 6938 times

It seems to have worked.

The NH gives the least trouble of the carburetors: It's an NH with "new" parts. Sorry, I don't know what other word to use.
If the passages between the gas tank and the carburetor are clean: I suppose I can disconnect and see if I get a mess.
and the float does not stick: I assume you mean suck closed...maybe it is?

After a choke pull do you get an overflow of fuel ?: No gas spillage

have you checked your battery? Yes, charged it up...6.4volts

[varmint]

Giggled the key back and forth OFF to ON.

Reassembled the timer and pulled the crank handle many times. It coughs a lot, fires anywhere from one to three times and stops.

I advanced the spark lever mid way, pulled many times and it fires one to three times.

The carburetor is not leaking and dry on the outside but I noted a drip from the connection between the intake manifold and the carb.

Jacked up the rear wheels off the ground on stands, disconnected the clevis pins to the brakes at the handle. Pulled the crank and fires the same way. I do hear the wheels turn a little.

However, I realized that I’m getting a buzz every half turn every three pulls and nothing on the fourth. The advance lever is in the middle. Then I push it to full retard and to full advance but nothing. The fourth one is completely dead now. So, I clamp a wire to ground, switch the ignition on and touch the other wire end to each of the four ground connections at the coil box. Three of them *spark* and buzz but one does not.

Coil #1 is not firing (no spark, no buzz). I have a “new” fifth coil but why do that?
So, ignition OFF, swap coils #1 and #2, ignition ON, test again and all are good. What?
Time to look at the contacts in the coil box. Found something but not what I was expecting:

There is movement towards and away from the contacts. Time for a wedge or a shim.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Did you ever recheck your timing as I suggested?

[varmint]

Jerry, I need to reopen my Ford Service and relearn how to check the timing. After work today, I'll crack open the book sitting in front of me. I might even put a TDC mark on the crank shaft pulley.

[Norman Kling]

I think your timing is way off. Try turning the crankshaft to where the pin through the front pulley is just below straight across on the left side of the car as you would sit on it. So that would be the right side as you face the front of the car. At that point the timer should be set with the ignition on battery and you rotate the timer to the point the coils just start to buzz . Then the rod between the timer and the lever on the steering column should be bent so it fits into the timer without moving the timer. Now to test things out rotate the crankshaft and the buzz should come just after the piston starts down on the power stroke. The engine should be started with the spark lever all the way up and as soon as it starts pull the lever down about half way. Easy with a starter but you need to run quickly if starting with crank.
Norm

[speedytinc]

The service manual covers timing using a roller timer.
New-day timers are timed way different.
Follow Norm's method. Pin should be @ 3:30

[Steve Jelf]

This is what Jerry and Norm are talking about:
https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html

[varmint]

Thanks guys.

I will have to fix the coil box first before I can attempt these instructions.
Might as well pull all four plugs and test for spark if I'm going to pull one.
Steve, I printed that list off since I don't have internet at the garage.

[Dennis_Brown]

Do you have a roller type timer in your extra parts you may have acquired over time. If you do you might try it to see if the engine will start. If you want to try that, you do not need to remove the wires from your present timer but just use modern automotive wiring you possibly have. If you want you do not have to remove your present wires from the coil box but use wiring clips on the test wires, just make sure the wire to the old timer do not touch a ground. The test wires do not have to be color coded.
I read here some time ago that someone used a set of trailer plug wires on his timer. That way he could remove the timer so he could clean it easily by pulling the plug apart and having it out in the open. May not meet exact restoration code but it would make things easier.

[varmint]

Do you have a roller type timer: No. Dennis, it's difficult for me to picture what you are saying but it sounds like the concept may be worth its own thread with photos and diagrams if it can solve a problem.

The #1 coil was at a complete fail state. So, it would have been impossible to set the timing.
I made a shim, placing it behind #1 and now I get a solid buzz every 1/2 turn without cutting out.
Cranked the engine and got 8 hits in a row.

If the passages between the gas tank and the carburetor are clean: Bought some fresh gas and poured in about a gallon. Unscrewed the fuel line at the carburetor, no mess. Turned the sediment bowl cock to on temporarily and fuel flowed out.

I think your timing is way off: Started with the instructions that I printed off and got stuck at step 1.
The rod (that I got from the vendors) can not be removed from the timer without removing the cap from the block. I will never be able to get it back in without messing up the timing adjustment in step 9.

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Either the end lengths were made reverse or I did something wrong.

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I spent the remainder of the evening, removing the rod, cutting it shorter and re-drilling the hole.

timing 03.jpg (21.92 KiB) Viewed 6605 times

[Norman Kling]

It doesn't matter which piston is up on top dead center. The setting of the timer is the same if all the wires between the coil box and timer are in correct order. Your rod does seem a bit long in the area which goes into the timer. If it doesn't bind up you could cut it off and re-drill the hole for the pin. just don't cut it too short.
Norm

[Steve Jelf]

Maybe I'm picking a nit here, but I adjust timing rod length with simple bending.

[Norman Kling]

I do too, however, he says he cannot remove it from the timer because it is too long from the 90 degree bend and the end of the rod. He would have to remove the timer to get the rod off.
norm

[varmint]

Oh! the frivolity.
Steve, I'm glad that your brain still works that way but I don't think everyone caught on.
I adjust timing rod length with simple bending.
re-drill the hole for the pin
just don't cut it too short
So the three next photos are for your...satisfaction.

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IMG_20241109_080955996.jpg (45.52 KiB) Viewed 6359 times

IMG_20241109_080351548.jpg (25.71 KiB) Viewed 6359 times

OK, and now for the seriousness.
Ignition ON - engine moved, but no free start.
Shorted ground to the top four terminals - buzz w/ no further engine movement.
Pulled plugs to test for spark.

#2 fails to spark, and no coil buzz any more.
I made a small shim for the back side of #2 coil.
Shorted ground to the top four terminals - buzz and get a spark on all four.

IMG_20241109_073236769.jpg (29.06 KiB) Viewed 6359 times

[varmint]

Seriousness continued...
The commutator rod has plenty of room now and there is no binding:

IMG_20241109_074234274.jpg (43.78 KiB) Viewed 6353 times

1) Moved spark lever all the way up
disconnected the rod linkage from the timer.
2) Rotated timer counter clockwise (as facing it from the front).
3) Removed #1 plug.
4) Place thumb over the spark plug hole.
5) Pull on the crank until you feel compression, stop.
6) Watch the crank pin as you slowly move the crank until the pin is horizontal...
Before moving the crank any more in step #6 and I found this:

[Norman Kling]

It appears you are making progress. put the lid back on the coil box and do test again. If they still buzz, Leave the coil box alone and put see if the coils buzz as you turn the crankshaft 2 complete turns and all 4 coils should buzz. If so set the timing and after that leave the ignition system alone. (If it ain't broke, don't fix it)
Norm

[speedytinc]

Steps 3 thru 6 are not necessary. Get the pin to 3:30/9:30 & check/set the timer firing.
Dosent mater which cylinder your are on. All 4 cylinders fire @ the same position of the crank pin.
In your case, if you are on # 1 & not getting a coil to fire, rotate the crank one half turn & try again.

[John kuehn]

You mentioned the engine hasn’t been running in 6 months. How did it run before. What have you done to it since then. It looks like the engine has at least been painted and cleaned up. What else if any. That may be a clue in your starting issues. Or maybe not.

[varmint]

You mentioned the engine hasn’t been running in 6 months. How did it run before. What have you done to it since then. It looks like the engine has at least been painted and cleaned up. What else if any.

History:
In 2016, I was told by prior owners that the engine was rebuilt.
I have not removed the crank nor camshaft to the best of my memory.
We did repaint it the same color as we got it.
The cylinder walls had beautiful hone marks.
I need to look at photos from then to remember what if anything I did...
Removed the head, crankcase, side cover
Replaced gaskets, plugs, starter, generator, magneto, exhaust manifold, all wiring, water outlet, head bolts, carburetor (L4 to NH), 3 bison nickels
Replaced fiber timing gears with metal ones.

A year ago: I got the engine to run long enough to move it 17 feet.
It ran poorly and inconsistently, many times on three cylinders.

Now: What I am concerned about is that the pin on the crank is completely vertical and I am already feeling compression.
I am going to post this and head back to the garage.

[Dennis_Brown]

Is there any chance that when you replaced the timing gear that you got it a tooth off?

[John kuehn]

I think I can see the shiny dot on the cam gear but don’t see the one on the crank gear. Some crank gears have a dot but have see some with a line between the teeth.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I think I can see the shiny dot on the cam gear but don’t see the one on the crank gear. Some crank gears have a dot but have see some with a line between the teeth.

Some crank gears have no mark at all. The tooth that lines up with the keyway is "the" tooth to line up with the cam gear.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Now: What I am concerned about is that the pin on the crank is completely vertical and I am already feeling compression.

That's okay. It just means that compression is beginning. Keep turning until the pin is horizontal, as Step #6 tells you to do. Then you will then be at Top Dead Center, on the compression stroke. Now, continue with the remainder of setp #6: Now turn the crank just a little more until the pin is halfway between 3 and 4 on the clock. This is 15º past TDC.

[varmint]

I was thinking that 90° more is not possible but then realized that this is not the cam gear. So, the gear set meshing is aligned up OK.

Completed step 6 by turning the handle little by little, photographing, and comparing it to a compass that I printed out until they matched.
7) Ignition to Battery.
8) Turn timer clockwise until buzz,
backed off until stop,
ignition to Off.
9) Bent the rod. (I can tell that the timing was indeed retarded. Photo)
10) Free to move.

IMG_20241109_164121197.jpg (38.46 KiB) Viewed 6246 times

I search around and still cannot find my adapter between Nation Pipe thread and modern straight to run a compression test.
So, that is abandoned and the plugs screw back in.
Retard timing, Fuel On, Ignition on, hand crank and...
It runs...heard sputtering and advanced timing half way.
After three minutes of running...I checked to see if there was any water in the radiator - OK.
Lowered idle all the way slow and it runs like a sewing machine.

Thanks guys!
I took five minutes of video of it running (with the door open) until I closed the fuel, and Ignition Off.
Drove to wife's work and showed her the video.
To which she said, "That's the best birthday present that I've had."

[Norman Kling]

I use a compression tester with a tapered rubber tip on it. It will fit into any spark plug hole of any car. Just need to have someone hold it down tight while the engine is being cranked over.
Norm

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Hooray!

Don't worry about the compression. It runs well and drives. Good enough.

The condition of your timer is still "iffy", (the brush end being not square). I would suggest buying a new one and keeping it on hand as a spare. Recheck the timing after you eventually install it.

[jab35]

Congratulations, Vern! Thanks for sharing this most excellent Model T adventure. jb

[NoelChico]

I know the feeling, Vern. Congratulations!!

[Norman Kling]

Good!
Now enjoy driving it. I presume, living down south, you can drive it this time of year unless you have a hurricane. So take it out and enjoy.
Norm