What year is my Model T?

[paulpat]

Hello all.
First time posting.
I’m trying to identify the year of my car. The engine serial number is slightly messed up with the first number looking like a mis stamp. It also seems to have parts from several years. Can anyone tell from the photos? I had trouble adding photos. Not sure they came through.
Thank you
Paulpat

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[paulpat]

I’m trying again with smaller photos.
Thanks
Paulpat

[paulpat]

Some more pics.\\

[RajoRacer]

Engine casting shows a 1917 date - haven't looked up the motor number yet - April 1917 - body appears to be in the late teens era - headlamps are earlier - pre 1915. Demountable rims are a later addition.

[Allan]

To me it all looks like it matches the 1917 casting date except for the already mentioned headlamps and the demountable wheels. The only thing I can add is perhaps the front spring shackles. They look like the L shaped ones which need oilers in the spring and perch.

Allan from down under.

[Wayne Sheldon]

The windshield appears to have even folding hinges which were used on open cars for 1915 and 1916, and on well into the 1917 model year. An April of 1917 build model T could have had the even folding windshield.
I can't tell in your photo if the windshield mounting brackets are the earlier riveted ones or the later bolted onto the windshield frame version that was only used for a very short while with the earlier even folding hinges.

Regardless, that might indicate your car is a relatively early/mid 1917.

Welcome to model T history minutia!

[Humblej]

April 7, 1917 is the date the engine serial number was stamped. The first digit is a # 1. Very nice complete survivor model T!

[Norman Kling]

Looks like a Johnny Cash car. Note the rear wheels are not de-mountable. However, it is typical of many cars which, when something broke down they went to the wrecking yard and bought something which would work and mounted it on the car. Could be that at sometime, the magneto quit working so they put on the gas lights because that car did not come with a starter and battery but the lights were powered by the magneto. The ignition would run for many miles on a charged battery.
Norm

[Steve Jelf]

Except for the headlamps and the demountable wheel already mentioned, the body is 17-22 style. Some shots under the hood might narrow that down.

[paulpat]

Thanks for all the help. Here are a couple more pics.

[Allan]

1917 models usually have a steel hub fan with four rivet on blades. It looks like yours has had an easily done later fan substituted. On our Canadian cars the outer veneers on the wood firewalls were horizontal. Yours are vertical in the photo. The wood firewalls do delaminate and often have been replaced. The original ones were always painted black.

You have a really nice early black radiator car there. In Australia, it would pass as a veteran, the last year for this classification being 1918. That lets you run with all the brass cars on veteran rallies.

Allan from down under.

[Erik Johnson]

The car reeks 1917 although I would say by April 1917, it would not have that earlier style windshield. The 1917 model year was August 1916 through July 1917.

Look for a body date and body number on the passenger side floor riser. Depending on the body manufacturer, it will be stamped directly into the wood or on a steel plate nailed to the floor riser.

[John kuehn]

The brass headlights on a low cowl 17 T make it look a little different and I don’t think I’ve seen that before but that’s just me. I’m wondering if the wooden firewall was replaced with another wood firewall since it doesn’t look like it was ever painted. Others might know if the 17 cars firewall was painted or not.
I would find the correct 17 steel headlights, install them, get the car running, put on some new tires and drive it in its original as found state. It looks like it’s a good survivor to drive and have fun to me. And of course put in some new bands and check out the rest of the chassis. By the way it’s as others have said the car like lots of T’s were kept going with parts they could find at wrecking yards. By the 30’s and 40’s there were a BUNCH of T’s in salvage yards and out in the back fourty at the farms!!

[Erik Johnson]

The firewall and floorboards are plywood replacements - not factory.

[Wayne Sheldon]

The firewall looks like modern type plywood, probably replaced in the 1950s or 1960s. Looks nicely done.

The earlier gas headlamps are interesting, and likely put on the car after the World War Two. However, it should be noted that people are strange creatures. Some embrace change readily, while others resist it as long as they can. Ford began offering electric headlamps for 1915, two to three years after much of the rest of the industry. Ford's late at adding electric lamps was due in part to many of Ford's customers being farmers and the like that tended to be somewhat conservative and sometimes slow to accept newer technologies. Even after Ford adopted the electric headlamps, some of Ford's customers did not want to accept then.
Although not seen in era photographs very often, era photographs can be found showing 1915 and 1916 model Ts clearly with earlier acetylene gas headlamps. Dealers and sometimes local repair shops, did sometimes exchange the headlamps to make a happy customer. Even less common, but I have seen several era photos of 1917 and possibly later model Ts with gas headlamps.

I agree with others that the car looks like a good 1917. Very few 1917s are properly restored or maintained, most having many later parts changed onto them. 1917 Ts had quite a number of unique to that year details. With a little effort it could be corrected bit by by bit and become a fine example of a 1917 model.
Or It could be sorted out and kept pretty much as is complete with its own personal history with later changes.
A person could begin a full restoration at any time, now or in the future, if so desired. Getting it roadworthy for now and getting to enjoy it for awhile first can help you to decide just what you want from the car later on.

[paulpat]

Thank you all so much for your input, advice, and information. I will probably pick away at this car to get it running again although someone has expressed interest in it. Has a bit of rot here and there but the undercarriage is quite solid. I’m really surprised at how simple it is. I keep looking for other stuff to be there to make it run. Someone told me recently they thought it belonged to a local Judge. The person running the estate sale I bought it at said the previous owner had it running (last registered in 2012), so that was 12 years ago. First thing I’ll do is change the oil. Maybe squirt some Marvel oil into the cylinders.
Again,
Thanks to All.

[Hudson29]

Ford began offering electric headlamps for 1915, two to three years after much of the rest of the industry. Ford's late at adding electric lamps was due in part to many of Ford's customers being farmers and the like that tended to be somewhat conservative and sometimes slow to accept newer technologies. Even after Ford adopted the electric headlamps, some of Ford's customers did not want to accept then.

I once saw a brass T with the gas headlights driving at night and was impressed by how well they worked. The illumination was probably better than my '23 with chrome reflectors. Possibly the new magneto driven headlights just didn't work as well as the old gas lights had done? Just flicking the switch was a great convenience but were the new lights really as useful? I have heard that the magneto lights were dimmer at idle than while driving. Having to race the motor while the driver was out getting a gate open might not be comforting to some.

Paul

[Steve Jelf]

I have heard that the magneto lights were dimmer at idle than while driving.

To get magneto headlights bright enough to show you anything, you have to go so fast that you outrun them. I would drive my 1915 at night in a town or city where there are plenty of street lights. On an unfamiliar country road? Not me. Too scary and dangerous.