A Ball Cap Quandary

[skyhunter]

done with this

[George House]

In your first paragraph you state “the hole was not at the top.” I presume you’re referring to the threaded grease cup aperture. Yes, that’s the only way it can be placed. Enter the bottom 2 bolts into the crankcase first and refrain from tightening them. Then you should have enough ‘wiggle room’ to install the top 2 bolts, washers and nuts.

[speedytinc]

The bolt pattern in the ball cap is equidistant. it can be installed all 4 ways. You will have to pull it back far enough to see the oil hole if you want to be sure its on top. If there is a full oil distribution trough, you only need pull it back/out 1/4" or so.

[John kuehn]

If you have difficulty getting holes lined up on a ball cap or any other holes use a long taper punch or if you don’t have one a screwdriver can work also. The holes in a ball cap are identical distance to each other. Sometimes putting the ball cap bolts in put one in the bottom and then one at the top and cross ways from each other and not one at the top and one down below it. Which ever way as others have stated works for you that’s the way to do it.

[Dan Hatch]

Sounds like the 4th main is not centered with the pan. Has pan been on a pan jig? Was 4th main bored offset? Is the driven plate running true to transmission?
Lots on things going on there.

[skyhunter]

done, with this as well

[JTT3]

Dan you posted it first but I was thinking the same thing, if the forth main did not go on with ease you’re looking in the future to significant engine problems. Best John

[skyhunter]

This would also be a ditto

[speedytinc]

Dan you posted it first but I was thinking the same thing, if the forth main did not go on with ease you’re looking in the future to significant engine problems. Best John

Ill third this.
However, with the motor in the horizontal position, one must expect the ball cap to touch low from the unsupported weight of the transmission. Touching one side first is a strong indication of a misaligned pan. & yes even a slight misalignment can cause serious issues including a broken crank.
There is a tell tail clue.
If the babbit is sloppy from a wallering output shaft, thats a strong indication of a misalignment or an off square output shaft. Oil will have been washing away u-joint grease. Ball cap clearance is supposed to be rather tight: .0015"-.002"

[Dan Hatch]

Sounds like a job for (wait for it). TWO PIECE FLOATING TRANSMISSION SHAFT!

[skyhunter]

As you may have guessed

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I am hoping part of my problem may come from the frame being on jack stands and the rear hanging and not sitting on the wheels on the ground.

That is probabaly not just part of your problem, but perhaps all of your problem.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Dan you posted it first but I was thinking the same thing, if the forth main did not go on with ease you’re looking in the future to significant engine problems. Best John

Ill third this.
However, with the motor in the horizontal position, one must expect the ball cap to touch low from the unsupported weight of the transmission. Touching one side first is a strong indication of a misaligned pan. & yes even a slight misalignment can cause serious issues including a broken crank.
There is a tell tail clue.
If the babbit is sloppy from a wallering output shaft, thats a strong indication of a misalignment or an off square output shaft. Oil will have been washing away u-joint grease. Ball cap clearance is supposed to be rather tight: .0015"-.002"

Let's not get carried away. When did the OP ever state that the ball cap would not go in? He only said that the bottom two holes did not align. I believe his comment above, about the rear end hanging down while the chassis is jacked up, is the main cause of his issue.

[JTT3]

Jerry that could be some of it but you can see post several remarks was the first time we learned the T’s frame was lifted off the floor. With that known now the question begs for more information, Do the fourth main holes line up with the end of the hogshead/pan holes “within reason”? I must admit l don’t like that “” part. Mostly using Scat cranks I haven’t really seen the sag that we’re use to with orignal cranks. Best John

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Jerry that could be some of it but you can see post several remarks was the first time we learned the T’s frame was lifted off the floor.

Yes, an excellent point!

[Stephen_heatherly]

Without the coupling ring in place, do the bolts easily thread through the 4th main into the pan?

Stephen

[DHort]

If the engine was built by a reputable engine rebuilder, the 4th main should be in the correct position when you accept delivery of the motor.

I am assuming you are attempting to connect the rear axle to the engine. You will have to pull the 4th main back far enough to see where the hole is unless there is a groove in the babbit and that you should be able to feel if is extends the length of the 4th main.

[speedytinc]

I am hoping part of my problem may come from the frame being on jack stands and the rear hanging and not sitting on the wheels on the ground.

EZ enough to confirm this hypothesis. Jack both sides of the rear end up & try the ball cap fit again.

[skyhunter]

of all things I've lost I miss my mind the most.

[skyhunter]

Why is the torpedo called a torpedo. The car, not the ordnance.

[speedytinc]

Could it be that the ball bearing was not machined to be properly centered & square?
Have you checked it with the DS mount flange for bolt pattern line up ?
You can try installing, noting contact spots. Rotate 180 degrees & check. Off the same side indicates a pan misalignment.
If the contact point changes, it your 4th main.

Deviating from correct original parts adds another layer of issues.
There is the unknown issue of the pan & HH alignment being correct.
The 4th main should slide in centered in all directions when vertical. Expect yours to be centered L & R, but be tight on the bottom due to the drooping trans assembly.

I am not a fan of ball bearing 4th mains.
Its hard enough to get one machined & centered with the proper clearances from a supplier.
I gave up & machine my own from raw babbit pours.

[skyhunter]

I love doing things multiple times

[speedytinc]

Can you get the DS flange back far enough to check the bolt holes independent of the transmission to the 4th main?
The idea is to confirm if its the 4th main off or the transmission.
If the DS bolt pattern dont align, maybe a little filing of the 4th main is in order? Confirm the issue before modifying.

[Norman Kling]

The two holes behind the hogshead are equally spaced and the two under the crankcase are equally space, so that leaves space between the hogs head and crankcase to be greater or less than it should be. I like to fit the 4th m ain while the engine is on a stand with the nose down. If everything is right the 4th main can be slid up and down on the tail shaft. If everything is correct then when you bolt everything up it will fit correctly. If the crankcase sags or is vent from side to side, you will have problems and eventually break the crankshaft. Even a skat crank will break if it is out of line because it flexes the crankshaft with every revolution. and just like bending back and forth a piece of wire, it will eventually break.
Norm

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

It's beginning to appear as if your ball bearing 4th main needs to go back to the maker for a replacement, or at least an inspection.

[Oldav8tor]

You also ought to share your problem with the "reputable engine rebuilder." He may have some responsibility here.

[skyhunter]

Why is water wet

[NoelChico]

Dan, I am a strong proponent of the 2-piece transmission shaft. Are you going to do another production run?

[Allan]

When I built my 1915 speedster It had the correct pan with the flat pan rail without the turned down edge to strengthen it. The build included straightening the pan on a jig. The pan was assembled to the block, with the motor vertical and the fourth main fitted, all in perfect alignment.
The I fitted the alloy hogshead, resulting in my perfectly fitting fourth main now being pulled up almost 1/16" out of line. My son was ready to pull it off again and check the pan again, but I put a hold on it. I could not see what I would do differently, and there seemed no point in going over the same things all over again and expecting different results.
Next day, after some cogitation, I unpacked my porta power. With a hardwood block between the second and third rod dips on the pan, and a heavy webbing strap around the pan snout and trans cover at the back, the porta power was pumped up to see what happened.With just a gentle push it was easy as pie to pull the back of the pan down into line so that the fourth main could be reinstalled as it should fit. With the power off, it resumed the non fitting state, but not as severely. Two more gentle pump cycles and it held up beautifully.
Having had this success, I can see no reason why the same process could not be done in the car, perhaps over a pit to give room for the porta power. It will correct alignment up/down, but not laterally. I can't see that you have much to lose, and a lot of time and labour to gain if it works for you too.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

Did the engine rebuilder install the pan, or was the engine installed into the pan by the customer? If the latter, could the pan need straightening?

[skyhunter]

I love peanut butter in it's normal state. But I hate the taste of it in cookies, or breakfast cereal and the like. Is that strange. I am the same with bananas.

[speedytinc]

With the record of repop parts, its a good policy to suspect the spurious part first.

[Scott_Conger]

In 6 weeks of messing with this, I think you have not answered a single question asked by responders. I'm not sure if you want help or just want to vent because you're not helping yourself by withholding information.

Here are a few questions that ought to be answered publicly:

has the reputable engine builder ever done a Model T engine before?
did they or you rebuild/install the transmission?
was the pan straightened on a jig?
did they or you install the pan/hog's head?

I suspect you have done all of the transmission/hog's head/pan work because I know of no engine builder who delivers a "T" engine/transmission with the 4th main NOT installed - further, you don't just "build an engine or transmission" and let someone else randomly decide to fit a ball-bearing 4th main to the transmission since the tail shaft must be machined to fit the bearing. This problem should take all of 5 minutes to sort out with the above questions answered.

FWIW, I think you answered the question and then suddenly veered off and crashed into the weeds yet again, blaming the 4th main manufacturer.

Unfortunately I see nothing but grief in your future at this rate if you do not get hands-on help. It is time to consult with the engine builder or a local hobbyist with experience with this sort of thing. And finally, if you do manage to get it together by prying things as I think I recall reading above, be sure your AAA membership is up to date. and you have a spare $5K in the bank. You're going to need them both. That part should slide over the tail shaft, all 4 bolts should fit, and there should be barely detectible rattle at the bolts as you try to clock it back and forth. Once that is accomplished, you can disassemble and reassemble with sealant (preferably with the engine on a stand with the front of the engine facing down. You are so far from this step that there is no advice or coaching in the world that will get you there if you haven't gotten there in 6 weeks.

Finally, I know you didn't ask for this, but it's my opinion that a ball-bearing 4th main is a very dangerous thing to be fitting willy-nilly by an amateur. Unlike babbit, these things display ZERO forgiveness to transmissions and crankshafts if fitted to anything less than a perfectly concentrically aligned/rebuilt transmission. And for that severe risk, you are gaining NOTHING in reliability or longevity - in fact, just the opposite. Folks who do get away with using them successfully and over time, typically have the experience behind them to make sure everything and I mean EVERYTHING is right before they are installed. And even some of them have come to grief.

Seek hands-on help - and good luck

[skyhunter]

Well that escalated quickly.

[Dan Hatch]

Noel I just your question. I think one would solve his problem.
No I don’t have any plans to make any more at this time. My machinist went to the happy hunting ground and finding another is such a pain. I hoped his son would take over, but he just couldn’t cut it. Sorry. Dan

[skyhunter]

"Please note that normal users cannot delete a post once someone has replied."

[Allan]

Turning the ball cap ass about will make it fit beautifully, because it no longer engages on the output shaft!
If the cap fits without the driveshaft ball and its retaining collar in place, perhaps the problem lies in the driveshaft alignment.
Allan from down under.

[Dan Hatch]

You are talking apples and bananas. Search Floating 2pc Transmission shaft.
Also don’t confuse it with 2pc crankshaft. Which the Floating 2pc Transmission shaft helps to prevent. Dan
Here I did it for you
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/5 ... 1479399611

[skyhunter]

I have never been accused of being normal before.

[skyhunter]

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