'26 wide brake band & kevlar question

[Steve1920]

Guy's,

I am not new to band changing, although it's been a number of years since my last set and they all have been the narrow ones up until now. So, I installed Kevlar on this set, and the brake band will not go back enough and around the drum completely without the metal band hitting the pan on both sides! I am holding the ears together tightly, as if the brake was applied already, and the band still hits. It's unable to slide rearward enough to get the band into the correct position.
What am I missing here? I don't remember my last set having this clearance issue? Is this a common problem with Kevlar on the wider band? Is my band material too thick? Even if I could get it into the correct position, there would be absolutely no room for the band to relax/expand and it would be in contact with the drum continuously.
Figured I better talk to some folks who had more '26-27 band experience than I.
Thanks in advance for any light that could be shed on my brake band issue.

Steve

[Allan]

If a wide band came out, I can't see why a new lining would not go back in. Does you pan have a depression in it to accommodate the wider band?

Allan from down under.

[speedytinc]

If a wide band came out, I can't see why a new lining would not go back in. Does you pan have a depression in it to accommodate the wider band?

Allan from down under.

Never had a problem like you describe.
To run the wide band, you need a wide drum, late HH, & 4 dip pan with the formed relief for the wide drum.

[Steve1920]

It's a '26 block, wide brake drum and with the late (wider pedal shaft spacing, dual mounts at the magneto contact) hogshead. Maybe the pan is incorrect, I don't know. Like I said, I have no prior experience with the "26-27's.
Does anyone have a photo of the later pans with the expanded area? Or, is there a photo of the modified pan in Bruce's book or the black bible? I have both but they are not within reach at the moment.
Thanks for the insight on the modified pans!

Steve

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I sometimes have issues with the bottom end of the brake band lapping over onto the low band. It's at the bottom, where you can't see it happening, but it creates the situation you seem to be describing. I grab the band ears with pliers and try to "rotate" the band so as to "swing" its bottom end rearward and away from the low band.

[TMiller6]

I thought all four dip pans had the provision to accommodate the wide brake drum.

If you have a four dip pan, you have the correct pan.

[speedytinc]

I thought all four dip pans had the provision to accommodate the wide brake drum.

If you have a four dip pan, you have the correct pan.

I am not so sure, but have not proved otherwise.
The 4 dip pan came before the wide brake drum.
In theory, there could be 4 dips that wont fit the wide drum.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

How is it that we're suggesting he doesn't have a pan suited for a wide brake? He's changing a band, not putting an engine/transmission together for the first time. So, it has apparently worked just fine prior to this.

[speedytinc]

How is it that we're suggesting he doesn't have a pan suited for a wide brake? He's changing a band, not putting an engine/transmission together for the first time. So, it has apparently worked just fine prior to this.

That's not clear.
He claims all his bands were narrow in the past. (first line)
So to cover the bases.........
Is it possible he is changing from narrow to wide & not aware that could be the problem?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

How is it that we're suggesting he doesn't have a pan suited for a wide brake? He's changing a band, not putting an engine/transmission together for the first time. So, it has apparently worked just fine prior to this.

That's not clear.
He claims all his bands were narrow in the past. (first line)
So to cover the bases.........
Is it possible he is changing from narrow to wide & not aware that could be the problem?

I assumed he was referring to experience on other T's, since he claims to have little experience with 26/27 ones..

[DanTreace]

Does anyone have a photo of the later pans with the expanded area?

Easy way is to see what inspection plate is under the crankcase. If it has "4-dips" or raised sections, you have the correct crankcase, the later one from late 1924-to-1927, they all can accept a wide brake band, that came along in Aug '25 for the Improved Car ('26-'27)

If struggling to place the band thru the inspection opening of the hogshead, you might consider removing the hogshead for best access.
May want to recheck the lining on that wide brake band to be sure it is riveted tight, without any bumps or lumps in the lining that could cause interference.

[Steve1920]

Well, I've got good news and bad news to report on my band issue. The good news is you guy's know your stuff and people can learn something new everyday from this forum! The bad news is a previous owner of this engine did indeed install an earlier, three dip pan without the enlarged drum area.
I started comparing the various three and four dip pans around here and I see the difference. I was not aware of that modification. I thought the only change in the oil pans were the dips and different style wishbone ball socket.
The previous owner, somehow, got whatever band material they used in there, but just barely. Upon closer inspection, I can see a wear mark on the pan where the band has been rubbing! And I once drove the car this engine was in and the braking action seemed fine.
Obviously, this pan issue puts a wrinkle into my quick band change plans!
Thanks for all the help on this.

Steve

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

How is it that we're suggesting he doesn't have a pan suited for a wide brake? He's changing a band, not putting an engine/transmission together for the first time. So, it has apparently worked just fine prior to this.

Well, it turns out the "wrong pan" crowd had it nailed! Hats off for that insight.

[babychadwick]

Seems this very bit was being discussed not long ago...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49317

[Allan]

I believe the four dip inspection plate was introduced before the wide brake drum was developed . Consequently there are pans with the four dip plate and the modified radius rod ball mount. These do not have the relief for the wide brake band. That came later.
Allan from down under.

[speedytinc]

I agree, but have not seen one yet.

[Allan]

I might have to change my belief! My barn find 1925 backboard has a 4 dip pan and the relief for the wide brake band on the transmission, while having a narrow brake band and evenly spaced pedals. Maybe the two pan modifications were done at the same time.
I doubt this car has ever had anything changed in its lifetime.
Allan from down under.

[DanTreace]

Allan

Same here, think the 4 -dip used July '24 had the changes in place for the eventual wide brake drum.

Bruce's CD Ency doesn't specific say about that width change in the belly sides, but this version was used to the end of production.
1924-1927
3100 (T1526E)
(No part number change from earlier style.) Similar to 1917-24 but now with larger “four-dip” inspection plate. (New pan began in July 18, 1924 according to engine records.) Pressed-steel reinforcing brackets used at the engine/ transmission junction corners sometime later. By November 1925, all engines also had the support straps from the motor mount to the transmission bolts at the rear of the cylinder block (1926
models and later).

Drawing Record of Changes:

03-15-24- T1526E—Four-dip crankcase drawn
10-11-24—C.C. Specified universal joint ball cap be held with a stud instead of a bolt
11-11-24—Wall which supports radius rod ball socket moved forward 1/8”
02-27-25—Front C.C. cover reinforcement. Increased thickness from .182 to .245 inches
02-27-25—Rear C.C. cover reinforcement. Increased thickness from .182 to .245 inches
04-27-25—C.C. cover (door). Removed flange from outside edge and 1/8” offset from inside cover. Increased thickness to .093”


The important front end supports (left and right styles) for use on the 4-dip to reinforce the crankcase at the hanging arms.

Then the final change with the modification of the engine block for the 'boss'' on the back to match the ears of the new wide brake band hogshead, the angle brackets to the bolts of the frame mounts, gave the final T engine mounting design for best support.

[big2bird]

Just use a narrow band again.

[JTT3]

Jeffery I know using a narrow band on a wide drum can & has been done in a pinch but the OP SAID he realized the difference looking at some pans “around here” with the bulge for the wide drum. In the grand scope of things, my opinion, if he has the ability to have the correct pan straightened, it would be somewhat better to replace the current pan with the correct one based on improved (?) braking. All that said, you are correct if OP wants to minimize the work / effort.

[AndreFordT]

somewhere during this post there were photos asked about the oilpan and the wide drum.
A few rebuild ago I found this:
The original engine has a wide drum and a carterpan with the small inspection cover. I don't know how the previous rebuilder arrived mounting it on the engine. Here a few photos of the problem.
I changed the carterpan with a right one.
The two last photos are the wrong pan.

Good luck
Andre
Belgium

[speedytinc]

Isnt it interesting, according to the drawing records, that the wide drum was anticipated for some 18 months before the wide drum was used?
Or was the wider brake drum clearance there for ease of narrow band installs thru the inspection cover without thought of a wider drum?

[Allan]

Or, was the wider drum introduced, with its internally mounted drive plate, to get rid of the "two piece" drum surface afforded by the narrow drum and the outer diameter of the drive plate? Finding two components with the same diameter for a rebuild is nigh on impossible. The wide drum fixed that, allowing the narrow band to run on a single drum surface. Maybe it was realised that a wider band could then be used if the pan was altered. We still need to find a 4 dip pan with no bulge for the wider band, if such ever existed in the development.

Allan from down under.

[RGould1910]

Here you go.