wobbly front wheels

[fireheadman]

Was driving down my neighbors driveway.... which has a couple dips and crowns on the asphault.
Speed was maybe 5-7 mph and all the sudden the front end started to shimmy side to side, like the front wheel were wobbling.

I slowed down and this allowed for the "T" to correct itself.
Since this was my third time driving her... I'm not sure if this is an "expected" thing that can happen in even terrain or if maybe there is something I should look at?

When I repacked the bearings, I sinched up on the bearing nut as there was some slop in it.
It gave me flashbacks of my old jeep wrangler that would sometimes have a "death wobble".


I'm open ears for this one....

[Norman Kling]

Your front wheels are out of alignment. Look up the specs and adjust the caster, camber, and toe in and it should be OK. Also look for loose parts in the steering system.
Norm

[Moxie26]

Wood Wheels?... Tighten the 6 nuts at the wheel hub, check for wear in the complete steering linkage system ... And wheel bearing condition and adjustment.

[Professor Fate]

Just sent a PM. Please be careful.

[Mike Silbert]

It can be caused by many things from loose wheels to loose steering joints to a loose steering box (top and bottom).
Also on the possible list is poor alignment.
And binding front shackles can possibly cause the death wobble due to the front axle / steering design.

So make sure everything that is supposed to move does so smoothly without slop.
And make sure everything that is not supposed to move stays put.
Find someone to help diagnose the issue, I know my arms are not long enough to reach everywhere for a proper test.

Mike

[fireheadman]

thank you everyone for the inputs....

will absolutely take a close look at everything that moves.
if/should there be any slop in some of the joints, like pitman arm or steering arm is there a way to correct those with bronze bushings / inserts?

will also check out the wooden spokes and bolts on them for being loose.


found this in the archive section... this answers my question about the bushings / inserts

[Allan]

What does cinched up the nut mean? There is a proper way to set the front wheel bearings. Get it wrong and there can be trouble, on top of what you are experiencing.

Allan from down under.

[Loftfield]

Not mention so far is checking the wishbone ball joint. Have seen more than one Model T wobble due to loose wishbone attachment at the engine.

[John kuehn]

Jack up the front end off the ground and slowly turn the steering wheel and watch for any movement or slack in the front end parts and the king pins. You’ll be surprised what may be a little loose. That’s the best way to check out the front end parts. Do this first then go from there.

[love2T's]

Was driving down my neighbors driveway.... which has a couple dips and crowns on the asphault.
Speed was maybe 5-7 mph and all the sudden the front end started to shimmy side to side, like the front wheel were wobbling.

I slowed down and this allowed for the "T" to correct itself.
Since this was my third time driving her... I'm not sure if this is an "expected" thing that can happen in even terrain or if maybe there is something I should look at?

When I repacked the bearings, I sinched up on the bearing nut as there was some slop in it.
It gave me flashbacks of my old jeep wrangler that would sometimes have a "death wobble".


I'm open ears for this one....

due to my ADHD and short attention span thereto...this thread is too long already to read the myriad of responses, at least one of which will be this....you have what we call the "death wobble", and 99% of the time it's due to your spindle bushings being shot. Yes, the rest of the steering gear can and will contribute, but start with the bushings, the "black service bible" tells you how to check em but just jack up the wheel and grab it top & bottom and "wiggle it" while observing the spindle bolt bushings. I bet you'll see movement. And it don't take a whole heckuva lot to make it death wobble. Been there!

[TXGOAT2]

One:
It is NOT normal.
Two:
It should be fairly easy to remedy.

[TXGOAT2]

When the vehicle is parked with the front wheels pointing straight ahead, there should be very little or no slack at the steering wheel. In other words, if you reach in and move the steering wheel back a forth a couple of inches, it should cause the front wheels to move. If it doesn't, find out exactly why it doesn't. The vehicle should not shake, shimmy, wobble, or wander when moving down the road. It should be easy to control on any reasonable excuse for a road, under all normal driving conditions.

[John.Zibell]

I had that happen once. Snugged up the spindle bolts and it hasn't happened since.

[love2T's]

I had that happen once. Snugged up the spindle bolts and it hasn't happened since.

Keep a close eye on it...that's often a sign of failing threads on the yoke and in need of what I call the "Steven's Fix".

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I had that happen once. Snugged up the spindle bolts and it hasn't happened since.

That's often a temporary fix and can mask the real cause. Just something to keep in mind if the trouble returns.

[Steve Jelf]

Causes of wobbly front wheels:

1 A combination of worn and maladjusted parts adds up to "slop";
2 Poor alignment/adjustment;
3 100-year-old wheels worn out or nearly so.

Fixes:

1 Inspect/fix/replace worn parts;
2 Check & adjust alignment;
3 New wheels.

A century of experience is well documented and available. Read. The more you know, the less money you're likely to throw into the bottomless pit.

[John.Zibell]

I had that happen once. Snugged up the spindle bolts and it hasn't happened since.

That's often a temporary fix and can mask the real cause. Just something to keep in mind if the trouble returns.

Trouble never returned. Everything else was tight.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I had that happen once. Snugged up the spindle bolts and it hasn't happened since.

That's often a temporary fix and can mask the real cause. Just something to keep in mind if the trouble returns.

Trouble never returned. Everything else was tight.

Awesome! Happy touring

[fireheadman]

wow this thread grew a lot over the weekend...
many many thanks to all that have commented.

I have some homework to do now.
I do know my steering column has some slop in it, so will pop that open to inspect the gears inside it.

Guess I will be going through each component/piece and note what is good and bad in terms of being worn out and replacing parts as I go along.

[TXGOAT2]

The Model T steering system is as simple as it could be made, but every part must be in good condition for it to perform as it should. The 3 alignment settings need to all be correct. Both the front and rear springs and shackles need to be in good condition and the engine mounts need to be in good shape, since the engine pan and mounts serve to locate both the front and rear axle. A T chassis that is in good condition will stay that way for many, many miles of service if it is oiled and greased regularly, which is about every 200 road miles, or after any extended period of storage.

[ewdysar]

Hi Ben,

It has been my experience that the Model T "death wobble" (probably a misnomer, due to the slow speeds when it happens, and I haven't heard of any fatalities that started with this) is fairly normal for a worn T. It usually starts with a bump or dip in the road and is a frequency thing and therefore, related to a specific speed. Slowing down or speeding up will usually make it stop for now.

While common, it does need to be addressed. It typically comes from the accumulated slop in all of the components between the steering wheel and the wheel. You may not see significant wear in any one place, but everything adds up. Luckily, most of the wear spots are bushed and the replacement bushings and bolts are readily available.

Keep crankin',
Eric

[TXGOAT2]

Wheels/tires that are way out of true or way out of balance can cause it.

[dinosbunny]

1. check your kingpin
2. check your bearings
3. check your wishbone a oil pan
4. LOTS OF PEOPLE DO NOT CHECK THIS, where the front springs clamps to the front end under your radiator. If the car is older, there use to be a piece of material in between the spring and frame, lots of time it worn out, falls out and it leaves slop from your spring to frame and cause the front (end to move side to side, (death wobble).
all are easy and affordable fixes. You should be able to find the fix on u tube or here on the forum

[fireheadman]

Have slight movement in the kingpin bushings, so planning on replacing those.
bearings appear to be good, but will also degrease those and inspect for odd shape balls/pins (unsure which will be in there)

This weekend I will get to the wishbone along with the steering column.
I am aware of lots of slop in the steering wheel, so the gears are probably long gone

And the space between the frame and spring.. I will look at and take plenty of pictures to spice up this thread with what I find
Once everything is back together, Ron (Club President for Pedal Pushers) has the alignment tools to help get everything back in specs.

[John kuehn]

If you have movement in the kingpin bushings that means there is other worn parts in the front end also.
When I rebuilt the front end on my 21 Touring I removed the front end as a unit and placed it on the work bench then replaced all worn and loose fitting bushings and tie rod ends.
When I did that the slack in the steering decreased a lot and there is hardly any at all. Your steering gears may not be as worn as you think.

[TXGOAT2]

As pointed out, the steering gears may or may not be your primary issue. All of the slop, or play, in the entire steering linkage will show up at the steering shaft, and the steering gears will multiply it by a factor of 4 or 5 even if they are in perfect shape.

[TXGOAT2]

A Model T with a chassis in good condition is a pleasure to drive and will ride reasonably well on average road surfaces.

[fireheadman]

I'm back at this project again after tending to some other house projects in the way.

Last night I got to king pin bushings replaced, very curious if there is a break in period once they are reinstalled?
The swivel motion is much stiffer right now. I applied a very thin layer of grease to get everything reassembled, then topped off the oiler cap and moved them back and forth about 20 times each.

There definitely is no more slop in this section, but I feel like they are very stiff.

I also need to replace my right side spindle arm (curved version) as the castle nut didn't survive the removal and I accidentally mauled up the threads on it. Other pieces I am looking to replace will be the 3 pinon gears and cap... lots of slop there. And possibly the pitman arm, I noticed the ball is not perfectly round anymore and moves around in the carrier (2-piece mount).

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Pressing inthe kingpin bushings will cause them to collapse slightly and be tight. They usually need to reamed after installation to restore the hole size. Not just any reamer. The suppliers sell the special reamer or perhaps one can be borrowed.

The stiffness may also be due to the spindle arm now being too "tall" to fit within the axle yoke. The flanges on the new bushings sometimes need to be trimmed slightly for a nice slip fit into the axle. The suppliers sell a face reamer for this adjustment. Also, people sometimes over tighten the kingpins, causing the axle yoke to flex a bit and clamp down on the spindle arm, making things tight. The kingpins only need to be snug or just "moderately" tight, then locked in place with the castle nut.

[Allan]

Did you try fitting the spindle bolt to the spindle before fitting the spindle to the axle? That will tell you if you need to align ream the bushings.
When fitting another spindle arm, do not tighten it up prior the fitting the steering connecting rod. With the spindle arm loose, fit the rod to it. This will allow the spindle arm to rotate to suit. Then tighten the arm nut.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

[J1MGOLDEN]

I found that problem with a TT Fire Truck that had been restored.

They put the front axle on wrong side out and that changes the angles of the wheel shaft.

[fireheadman]

made a little progress on this issue..

• re-peened the wheel bolts after tightening those up a 1/4 turn
• replaced the 3 pinon gears (studs were ok), installed a new brass screw cap.... those 2 cleaned up a lot of slop!! (just need to re-grease everything)
• next went in for the pitman arm, compared that to the new one and noticed the difference in size + wear on it. (Also bought a new end cap for it, rod side seems fine!)
• lastly, re-replaced the bushings on the driver side (spindle / kingpin).... bought a reamer and center alignment tool (this made a world of difference!!

bad news is for the passenger side spindle, I went a little over board on cutting out the bushing (couldn't get it to budge on tapping it out) and put a 1/16 groove up and down it.

....so going to pick up a replacement spindle soon, install new bushings, then should have most of the slop, wear and tear out of there!

Question I have on the pitman arm.
Since this a metal on metal (moving part), is there supposed to be a lubricant applied to it? Or just leave it dry?


Only place left to review is the ball joint on the wishbone (at the engine pan connection).... Might replace the lower section of that if I can find the parts.

[speedytinc]

Grease it. EP molly in all the ball joints.

[Dan Hatch]

Most Model T front axles have the hole in the axle itself worn out.
Sounds like a job for Stevens Front Axle Tool!

[fireheadman]

Most Model T front axles have the hole in the axle itself worn out.
Sounds like a job for Stevens Front Axle Tool!

not sure I follow what you are referring to... can you please expand on this some more?

[walber]

The eyes of the axle that hold the king pins can be worn. The king pin must fit snugly in the top eye and the threads in the bottom eye should be in good condition. These can be refurbished with a "Stevens Tool" and associated inserts.

Dan Hatch sells a faithful reproduction of the tools and inserts. Not cheap but they can save an axle that is badly worn. If you are in a club or know others in your area that have T's you may be able to borrow one.

[Dan Hatch]

Picture worth a thousand words. Here is an old video made by Bill Robinerson that explains the Stevens front axle tool. Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DNGT7P79vg

[fireheadman]

Appreciate the video. Clear as can be now

Think I’m ok on that aspect of things. Zero play in the connection.

[Dan Hatch]

Here is what it should be. Have not seen a really good axle in many years. You may have a unicorn.

IMG_1173.jpeg (67.57 KiB) Viewed 1203 times

[Chris Barker]

Interesting in that nowhere on the section of the axle drawing shown above does it state that the kingpin axis is vertical - which it is. Maybe it's elsewhere.

I suspect that now the kingpin bushes are STIFF, the car won't suffer wobble, though it's still good to go ahead and check the other components.
It's surprising that nowhere in the thread above is the word 'damping', or even friction - they key property here. Though John Zibell gives us the clue.

[Daisy Mae]

All I can say is a big shout out & Thanks to Dan Hatch for personaly restoring/straightening/shimming my '14 DB axle!!! My steering is as good as it was new.

[Gracie'sDad]

All the above but check tire pressure also.

[TXGOAT2]

I find that my car is sensitive to tire pressure. You need a good, accurate gauge to check pressure. I get good results running 27 PSI, cold, on a '27 roadster with Ford wire wheels and 4.40/4.50 tires. Excessive pressure gives a harsh ride, uneven tread wear, reduces braking effectiveness, and it hammers the entire car needlessly on anything but a dead-smooth road. "High pressure" tires must be run at much higher pressure than that, but I would avoid over-inflation with any tire. Vehicle loading affects ideal tire pressure. Lower is better, absent a substantial load, as long as minimum requirements are respected when running high pressure type tires.

[fireheadman]

Picture worth a thousand words. Here is an old video made by Bill Robinerson that explains the Stevens front axle tool. Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DNGT7P79vg

Was able to get my passenger-side spindle replaced this weekend (Thanks to Ron - Mile High Pedal Pushers)!!
Then greased and packed the the axles, reconnected all the arms and steering linkage.
I noticed a very slight amount of play in the driver's side spindle where it mounts to the cross member (had it on jack stands). It might be a candidate for Steven's Front Axle Tool (shim it) or maybe replace the front cross member.

For the amount it will be driven in the future, I can't see this becoming a major issue right now, just something to keep a eye on.

The other piece I need to figure out is the steering gear cover. Thought I had an earlier model, so I bought the brass cap, but that isn't screwing down enough to allow the steering wheel to seat and have the cap grab enough threads. From what I measured (comparing to the old cap), it would need the inside collar machined down a bit to match the height of the nickel cap. Also, the set screw on my old one is missing from the threads being stripped out, so I might pick up one from eBay or see if a club member has one locally.

Wont know how much relief / resolve I have brought to the wobbling wheels until I get the kevlar transmission bands installed (other mini project I'm working on in tandem). If the weather keeps staying nice I might get this tested soon...

[Allan]

Ben, by cross member, do you mean the actual front axle? Cross member is the term usually used to describe the frame front piece in which the spring is clamped.
When the steering columns were assembled in the factory I believe the cover was screwed down and then the set screw hole was drilled and tapped to lock it in place. Cosequently, each assembly is unique. Finding another cover with the set screw hole that will line up with another steering gearcase is not at all likely. You may have to find one that screws down as it should, and then use the hole in that cover as a pilot to drill a new set screw hole.

Others may have a different solution.

Allan from down under.

[fireheadman]

the steel member that the spindles connect to on each side.
i'm probably calling it something different that is causing confusion.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

the steel member that the spindles connect to on each side.
i'm probably calling it something different that is causing confusion.

I think that's the problem.

The piece that holds the bronze bushings and that you mount the wheels to is called the "spindle".
The arm that attaches to the spindle, and is held on with a castle nut, is called the "spindle arm".
The cross member you refer to is called the "tie rod".
The diagonal rod that connects the tie rod to the steering arm, (called the "pitman arm"), is called the "drag link".

[fireheadman]

let's go this route instead.... use of a picture.

what is the name of the steel piece that spans left to right and the spindles mount to with kingpins?..... That is what I am referring to.
not sure that is a tierod. pardon the confusion and hopefully that clears up things.

[TXGOAT2]

That is the forged steel axle. The piece in the picture that connects the top of the spring to the frame crossmember and holds the crank is for a later model car.

[fireheadman]

ok good.... well we are now on the same sheet of music.
so I'll keep an eye on that part for where the kingpins drop in and either use Steven's tool on it or just replace it (should thing get to that point).

think it will be fine for now.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Maybe this will help. Thanks to Martin Vowell for his excellent diagram, which I adulterated with my notes...

Some of these may not be the official Ford names, but most folks will understand what they mean.

T Front End.pdf

(339.98 KiB) Downloaded 18 times

[DHort]

Jerry

Does your wife only allow you one color marker at a time?

Good diagram to pull up and label. Thanks to you n Martin on that.

[mtntee20]

At least, he gets ONE. My wife won't buy any for me since the "Great Crayon Incident of 2024",

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Jerry

Does your wife only allow you one color marker at a time?

Good diagram to pull up and label. Thanks to you n Martin on that.

Dave,

I just prefer the taste of green crayons over all the others.

[love2T's]

ok good.... well we are now on the same sheet of music.
so I'll keep an eye on that part for where the kingpins drop in and either use Steven's tool on it or just replace it (should thing get to that point).

think it will be fine for now.

Seems I covered that point way up on my two Oct. 19 threads?
You may as well do what most of us do and just go over/take apart the entire front end apparatus and fix what is the least bit sloppy. You'll be glad you did once you take your first drive after that.

[speedytinc]

ok good.... well we are now on the same sheet of music.
so I'll keep an eye on that part for where the kingpins drop in and either use Steven's tool on it or just replace it (should thing get to that point).

think it will be fine for now.

Seems I covered that point way up on my two Oct. 19 threads?
You may as well do what most of us do and just go over/take apart the entire front end apparatus and fix what is the least bit sloppy. You'll be glad you did once you take your first drive after that.

Do it all.
Making the front end a little better is not the way to go.

[fireheadman]

Do it all.
Making the front end a little better is not the way to go.

not disagreeing with you, I was brought up that saying "do it right the first time, etc, etc...."
Its the availability of parts and access to the tools needed, so I'll get her as close as I can for now!

Seems I covered that point way up on my two Oct. 19 threads?
You may as well do what most of us do and just go over/take apart the entire front end apparatus and fix what is the least bit sloppy. You'll be glad you did once you take your first drive after that.

She's been completed disassembled and put back together, so I'm very aware of what is "sloppy"

I'll keep an eye on everything and go from there.... appreciate everyone's inputs/comments/gripes...etc
Very interesting group of people this forum has!

[Dan Hatch]

There is a Stevens Front axle tool on the classifieds. Not mine just passing on information.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

There is a Stevens Front axle tool on the classifieds. Not mine just passing on information.

That's certainly a very nice one too!

Has it been determined that this type of repair is needed for this axle?