Front crossmember rivet question

[old_charley]

I'm preparing to replace my front crossmember. Can anyone tell me the correct lenght of the rivets to compress properly? Thanks in advance.
Bryan

[dykker5502]

May I ask where you've got a new crossmember from??? Butchered another frame with a better crossmember?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I'm preparing to replace my front crossmember. Can anyone tell me the correct lenght of the rivets to compress properly? Thanks in advance.
Bryan

Rather than accuse you of butchery, as above, I'll suggest allowing the rivet to stick out by 1/2 of its diameter. For example, if you use a 1/4" diameter rivet, common practice seems to dictate having it stick out 1/8" prior to peening it. To be honest, I like to have it stick out just a little bit further.

To double check my memory on this, I found the following calculator that confirmed my recollection. You may find it useful...

https://calculator.academy/rivet-length-calculator/

[John kuehn]

If you’re a Model T enthusiast you collect or buy extra parts to make your particular car better. Frames, springs, wheels, engines and T sheet metal body parts will be in a T owners backyard or storage buildings. It’s parts of the hobby and always will be.
Here in Texas and growing up going to farm auctions there were always T parts of all kinds being piled up along other farm parts being sold. Model T frames were always fairly plentiful on farms and left out in the woods. With so many T’s being made Model T parts and pieces weren’t hard to find if you wanted some.

[TRDxB2]

I'm preparing to replace my front crossmember. Can anyone tell me the correct lenght of the rivets to compress properly? Thanks in advance.
Bryan

No assumptions No guess work buy them. What year

arrogance bringer dig ingen vegne

[dykker5502]

@John,
it may be so in the US, not so much here in Europe or to be specific in Denmark.
My front crossmember on my '14 touring is broken, and my intention is to get it welded, but as the reasom may involve corrosion, I may face to have to find another frontcrossmember. But thanks, now I know that I can get all the right rivets from Langs!

[Mike Silbert]

When installing solid rivets that are round headed I have always calculated length by the formula of "Length = Material Thickness + 1.5 times Diameter".
It takes a certain amount of material to make the head so adjust as needed from there.
For countersunk rivets I do the same then grind the top smooth.
This came information from Jim Dix (of the former Big Flats Rivets) backed by sources like these
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-58lpkIWAZU
https://www.aircraft-tool.com/detail?id=MS20470AD-4-4
https://www.glue-it.com/knowledge/solid-rivets/
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Sel ... 2_35892149

When you get into the Head Type, Diameter and Length coding that is another puzzle
See this link for that
https://www.rivetsonline.com/rivet-data ... fda4h562IG

Some assistance to what is going to happen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WaqcxnqOZs

Things to think about:
Order extra rivets to cover mistakes. Rivets too long can be shortened, too short are useless.
Think about the proper sequence of riveting to not get into trouble.
The front crossmember is a really tight area to work, practice on something easier first?
Take your time setting up and getting ready then verify it will work like you think while it is cold.
Install bolts / screws in the empty holes.
Make sure everything is very secure before you start heating.
Good fixturing and helper(s) make it easier and better. One task per person works best. A heater person, A bucking person, and a riveting person is how I setup when I can. Doing it by yourself is tough.
When it is ready to rivet (hot enough) work fast, smooth, and straight.
Be patient when removing fixtures, they are usually hotter than they look.
When you screw up remove the rivet and do it again.

I have made all the riveting mistakes possible (probably) multiple times, it takes practice to get it perfect.
Mike

[Allan]

Bryan, I would suggest securely bolting the replacement cross member in place, at every point. Then proceed to do each rivet in turn. A heating guy as a helpèr is invaluable. It allows the riveter to work quickly and independently. Off the top of my head, most of those rivets can be jammed tightly in place with a bucking bolt, allowing easy access for heating and setting. As others say, have some extras to replace some that do not set a required.
I'd love to be able to help, but my OS travels are over. I turned 80 yesterday.
Allan from down undèr.

[old_charley]

Thank you, everyone for your responses.
Michael, I did actually "butcher" another frame that was otherwise quite bent up. As John explained, we have the "luxury" in the U.S. a multitude of bone piles from which to acquire parts.
Frank, I did purchase the kit from Lang's. My concern was/is that with the crossmember bolted securely in place, the 5/16" x 1" rivets will protrude 11/16" and the 1/4'" x 7/8" rivets will protrude 9/16". That appears to be excessive to get a nice neat result and I'm hoping to not have to experiment too much.
I did replace the front crossmember on my "22 about 15 years ago and it came out very satisfactory. So, I do have a good handle on the set-up and procedure. I just don't recall what length rivets I used.
Mike, thanks for all the info and links and length equation. Very helpful.
Jerry, the link to the length calculator is terrific. That gives me within .010" of Mike's formula. That's just about 3/4" for the 5/16" rivets and 5/8" for the 1/4" rivets.
Allan, Happy Birthday! I've already made a couple of bucking bolts. That worked great for me last time. I did that one without any help. I have a helper lined up this time!
I feel a whole lot more comfortable than I did yesterday morning.
Thank you again everyone.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Thank you, everyone for your responses.

Thank you again everyone.

Great! Let us know how everything turns out.

[Scott_Conger]

Bryan

as important as the set-out of the fresh rivet shank is, is the use of the correct rivet setter. Research internet for the size head you require and purchase the proper tool. It will be far more satisfactory in creating a good tight job than just peening with a hammer

[John kuehn]

Lang’s the rivet tools you need.Ck it out
https://www.modeltford.com/item/PN-BAR-2.aspx

Lang’s has them for 1/4” and 5/16” rivets.

[old_charley]

I need to make a corrction from my previous post.I bought individual rivets from Chaffin's and not Lang's kit. Lang's kit may very well have shorter rivets than what Chaffin's lists.
John and Scott, thank you for the advice and the link. I've already ordered rivet setters for my air hammer.