Vintage authenticity?

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Fordwright
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Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:37 pm

Certainly, every Model T owner has a right to modify their cars any way they like, but it makes me a little sad to see a Model T with all sorts of visible compromises to modernity, such as an alternator. customized floor mats, modern gauges, etc. I have nothing against a modified class where the modifications are welcomed and accepted, but I prefer the vintage cars kept as original as possible. I have nothing against modifications that remain fairly invisible, like safety glass and brighter headlight bulbs and even seat belts, but as long as they preserve the authentic look of the car.

Am I alone in this opinion?


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:53 pm

There is almost no "authentic" Model T anymore! You would have to inspect everything including the internal engine, transmission, and drivetrain. The paint, upholstery, top etc. The closest is quality reproduction parts . If the engine has been rebored, or the radiator replaced or the hoses etc it is not authentic.

Having said the above, I agree that things such as alternator, modern gauges, etc. Look improper when the hood is lifted or the interior is checked, and do not really improve the performance of the car. It is also interesting, that it seems the majority of problems on the tours occur on those cars which use distributors, alternators etc. Of course, it could be that the owner has not learned to maintain the original type equipment and so uses modern equipment with which he is more familiar.

Each owner has the right to modify his car as he wishes, however, when on tour, remember that most other drivers have spare parts and knowhow for the original type and if you should break down you are basically on your own if the problem is with non stock parts.
Norm

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TRDxB2
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:46 pm

You are not alone. I have challenged myself to build a "period correct" two passenger speedster (Model T based) that looks as if it was built in the late twenties early thirties. To me "a period correct speedster" means using parts (repros allowed), materials and technology with-in a few years of an established date (1930) that someone was likely to have built then. Now others may have a definition that is more specific as to have the correct rims for a specific model/year. All depends if you want a museum piece or personalized driver or a hot rod.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Rich Bingham » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:19 pm

I believe Norm is correct that no Model T is 100% authentic. If it were possible to examine random examples from each benchmark year during the evolution of the Model T., preserved as they came from the factory in some kind of time-warp, it's my opinion there would arise many interesting discrepancies between what is documented as "authentic" in judging guidelines compared with unassailable evidence.

Throw in 90 to over 100 years of parts swaps, repairs, dis-assembly, re-assembly, and well-meaning "restorations", and the whole of the existing, running Model Ts is like a deck of cards that's been well shuffled. This is not to say that most honest restorations are not as "true to type" and authentic as their owners can possibly make them.

" . . . It makes me a little sad to see a Model T with all sorts of visible compromises to modernity . . . Am I alone in this opinion ?"

It seems the "first commandment" on this forum is that "Every Model T owner has the right to modify their cars any way they like."
I'm not so sure about that. It seems to conflict with the concept of preserving a living historical past, and speaks to a short-sighted, rather selfish view that disregards what should become of cars that have remained mostly intact since manufacture, and have already outlived three or four owners. Do you see your Model T as an item to use, then discard with no concern for what will become of it when you no longer own it ? Or do you see yourself as the steward of an item that has outlived its time and place eighty years ago, with a responsibility to send it forward in time as a reasonably authentic "ambassador" of life and times in the early 20th century ?

Fordwright, reading these boards, often it seems as though you may be alone in your opinions, but I think it's just possible that's only because so many posts are concerned with modifications and seeking help with them. After all, there is no Ford literature from the era to tell you how to put a VW distributor on your Model T. Opinion here has been fairly effective to shame so-called "purists", and posts about questions of authenticity are less frequent, and often defensive. Sometimes, those who descry "purists" present a scenario wherein the "purist" is an overbearing egoist, unfriendly, and bullying others with his unwarranted and self-appointed superior knowledge, but in four years of reading on these boards, I've never seen that.

All this said, there's definitely a huge difference between Model Ts that have survived mostly intact through the decades, and those agglomerations of stray parts valiantly collected and stitched together again into whole, running, "parts-salad cars" by enthusiasts who love the Model T. My hat's off to them ! Speedsters are in their own rareified sphere as well.
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by AndyClary » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:44 pm

I guess it is time for this thread again. Agree that there are "improvements" that good authenticity. By don't get authentic and original confused. Replacing items that have a definite service life such as hoses, tires and other wear components, may drift away from original but it is certainly authentic to maintain the vehicle.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Jugster » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:23 pm

New Patina Combo b jpeg.jpg

One of the hottest topics among antique car enthusiasts, one that never seems to cool, is the subject of originality. It's been done to death, but it won't go away. In that realm, we use different terms of only slightly diverging connotation; words like "stock," "unmolested," "authentic," "genuine," "accurate," "correct," etc. A comprehensive, frame-off restoration may return an automobile to "stock," or even "mint" condition, but it'll never be "original" again. Whether you prefer a restored car to an original, unrestored car, the recent trend, where the oldest of collector cars is concerned, tends to eschew gross modifications. At the more prestigious auctions, unmodified cars from the Brass-Era through about the 1930's simply command the highest prices. Hot-rods, eh—not so much.

If you're an award-winning competitor of the Pebble Beach/Amelia Island variety, you enjoy your car in a way that differs from the weekly, neighborhood cruise-in crowd. Your car doesn't get driven very much, and may not even be registered or have license plates, and it lives 99.9% of its life in a surgically clean garage or an enclosed trailer. Such a priceless, restored-to-mint treasure is an authentic historical standard against which others are measured. With these automobiles, fidelity to detail is carried out to an apogean degree, a practice which may have given meaning to the term, "over-restored." So where do we draw the line on authenticity and originality? Do we fill the gas tank and engine with vintage gasoline and oil? Do we fill the tires with genuine vintage air? That may sound facetious, but if, instead of black or brown grease, the factory used red grease, the trophy-seeking owner will also make certain to use that same red stuff. And if anti-freeze wasn't available back in that day, you won't see any trace of green stain under the hood. I mean, these guys are serious!

Then, on the other hand, there are factory-new parts which, right from the get-go, were intended for regular replacement. How people replaced them and the parts they used are a part of the historical record. These items include tires, brake shoes, spark plugs and so on. Most Brass-Era automobiles were designed with the intent of being, to a significant extent, owner-maintained, or owner's chauffeur-maintained—and all these cars did require one heck of a lot of maintenance and tinkering.

In the case of Ford's humble Model T *, which was designed to be kept in running order by a farmer wielding a pocketknife (and the American farmer was Henry's favorite demographic), this is especially true. Because the car was the most-produced vehicle of its day, an aftermarket industry of non-factory, Model T parts manufacturers burst into being and the catalogs of these companies are now collector items. I think this very widespread capitalistic endeavor should be considered a significant component of the history of Ford's Flivver. The photographic record shows the car equipped with ahoogah horns, fat-man steering wheels, robe-rails, crystal vases (for Heaven's sake!), rear-view mirrors, Hassler shock absorbers, accordion running-board racks and toolboxes, and yes—even clear-varnished wood-spoke wheels and white-wall tires!

Would this kind of stuff get past the eye of an AACA judge? Nah, but then, neither would fuzzy dice, curb-feeler springs, retractable "Necker" steering-wheel knobs, or a half-empty pack of Luckies on the dashboard of a '57 Chevy. But you know what? Such things belong there because they tell part of the story of the people who owned these cars and the times in which they lived. When I go to museums, I do see those accessories in abundance.

The vast majority of cars go from the dealership to a succession of one, two or perhaps three owners and then end up scrapped. Unless, by accident, a car survives long enough to become the subject of nostalgia or curiosity, nobody will ever care whether its numbers match. Now, it happens that I own a 1915 Model T Ford, and I have to admit, it's kind of cool to assure car-show spectators that yes, this car moves under the power of its original engine. That's kind of amazing. But hey, we're talking about a car that's a century old. A '63 split-window Corvette? Yeah, I guess original counts for a lot there, too. But brakes, tires, hoses, clamps and such? Aw, c'mon. Still, it's hard to argue with excellence. Somebody has to keep the flame; somebody has to set the standard. Though that kind of compulsive obsession doesn't happen to be my particular cup of tea, I can still admire the effort.

*As a related aside, from what I've read on this forum, the parts-network of Ford dealerships routinely replaced worn out major components (like rear axle/differential assembles) with recognizably later-model parts when owners would bring their cars in for such repairs. As these were genuine Ford parts installed by authorized Ford dealers, what then would be the status of historical legitimacy and accuracy in such cases? No good? Okay, what if the present owner could produce the original Ford receipt that documented such replacement?


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by thom » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:41 pm

Fordwright, you are certainly not alone. I too prefer 'em like they came. I DISLIKE rat-rods and T street rods, even T street rods when fiberglass bodies are used. I'm not real crazy about speedsters either. Seems like a waste not to build a whole car. I can appreciate Ts that are left "as found" but not ones with faux patina. Just my 2 cents worth. ;)

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:56 pm

I guess if your car sits in the garage and never gets driven or gets loaded on a trailer to be taken to a show 100% original is great. Some of us drive our cars and have to make them as safe within their limits to drive in the traffic we live with so that means extra lights and maybe turn signals extra brake LED bulbs etc. Wonder who all the buyers were for the 1000's of add on items sold by many company's were back in the day? Why should someone get a bug about mine or others cars not being 100%? They need to worry about their own car, mine is just fine the way I put it together. And frankly I don't give a hoot if someone does not like it, because I do and the people that see me drive it love it too. :twisted:
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Matt in California
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Matt in California » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:33 am

Mark,
I hear you. All I need to do is find a rear axle, engine and front end an then use a pile of money to buy new sheet metal, a wood kit and upholstery... If you think of it how original is even paint and upholstery.

I think things are changing from the 1960s-1970s where people went for the most amazing perfect restorations and some were a lot lest perfect.
I enjoy the challenge of looking for original parts than have matching patina. I have a rusty 1926 touring. I have spend a good amount of time on the mechanical side, but not the body. I don't worry about scratches, polish or even washing the car:) But 99% of the time people ask if I will restore it.

I just got a 1926 Fordor with original interior (the exterior has some bright paint in areas). I have no plans to restore it. I just want to enjoy it as is.

Matt
Last edited by Matt in California on Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Burger in Spokane » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:26 am

Most people think "correct", "authentic", etc. means, as the day it was made. I was
decades late to that show. What I saw, and what attracted me to old cars in general,
was "as used". It was out of the ordinary and interesting to see an old car or truck out
doing it's thing, as if it was unaware that it was "obsolete" and should be in a junkyard
somewhere. That is how I like to see old cars. Not perfect, but still out there doing
what they were built to do. Hopefully in reasonably decent original condition, with
allowances for dings and dents and worn off paint, repairs made along the way, but
still very much representative of what they looked like when they were relatively new
or going through their "first life". Over-restored trailer queens *might* be hyper perfect
and good for reference, but no thanks .... not my bag. Overly modified makes them
something entirely different than what they were. The charm is lost. Again, no thanks.
Have fun with your cars, but not everyone is going to agree on what is "right".
More people are doing it today than ever before !


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by John kuehn » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:34 am

The only time a T was ‘right’ was when it came off the assembly line. End of story.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by babychadwick » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:40 am

Keep it period and have fun.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by It's Bill » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:06 am

I was advised to put a later wishbone on my 11 that mounts to the bottom of the axle because it is stronger. I get the point, but I thought if I went down the improvement road, pretty soon I would no longer have an 11. So I added an accessory axle support as they would have back in the day. Likewise, I am rebuilding the engine with a strong modern crank to avoid the possibility of destroying the original block if the 100 year old crank were to fail. The new one doesn't show, and the car will be better preserved. I am considering adding concealed modern lighting for safety reasons, but have not pulled the trigger yet. I like original cars because I like historical artifacts and the insights they give us, but I think each owner should enjoy their cars as they see fit. IMHO.

Cheers, Bill


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Mark Osterman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:39 am

Funny, when I posted on my personal face book page that I installed LED light bulbs in my 23 T runabout I got all sorts of pushback that I ruined the authenticity of my car. I returned that it also had new tires and I had to replace the plate glass with safety glass on the windshield. 😀 Still most of my car is from the T era and I drive it at least 100 miles a week.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:18 am

Everyone wants to find a fault in another, not cool!

Now if do not like “improvements” such as lights, clean burning ignition systems, reliability, and the likes, make sure all those young drivers know hand signals, impair their cars from a cell phone and pay attention.

To each their own, upgrades as some of you bash out on child safety, etc. follow the same rules. Speedster also were the beginning of the sports car, modifying an existing power plant. Evolution of modern transportation!

My $.04 worth on the subject,

Humbled Hank

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:05 am

John Kuehn. One line post. Done.
Forget everything you thought you knew.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by AdminJeff » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:45 am

Henry K. Lee wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:18 am
Now if do not like “improvements” such as lights, clean burning ignition systems, reliability, and the likes, make sure all those young drivers know hand signals, impair their cars from a cell phone and pay attention.
Amen. I was driving the T not long ago and went to make a right turn. I was in the middle-ish section of the road, and slowed down and gave the appropriate hand signal way in advance. Just about as I started to turn, some assh@#$ passed me on the right and on the shoulder. Oh his phone of course. I came within a few inches of hitting his left rear. Scared the bejesus out of me. I was visibly shaking afterward.

I immediately went to work on installing turn signals. Not just any signals but I tried to find lights that had a vintage appearance, hid the wires as best I could and made the controller unobtrusive, drilling no holes. I did all this instinctively with the intention of living a long life, reducing the "idiot factor" of incidents, and being a good steward of this 1921 vehicle that gives me so much pleasure and some day will give great pleasure to its next steward.

When I raced cars I could get literally 2" off the bumper of the car in front of me and stay there all the way through a high speed corner. I could trade places with the car in front of me and do the same thing. Lap after lap. Day after day. And not make contact. It's because as racers we learned who we could trust on the track and we were exceptional drivers. Not so on the road today. I drive my T daily and the idiots I encounter never cease to amaze me. The minor visible (and reversible) changes I've made to the car mostly keep me and my passengers as safe as practicable, given today's road conditions.

As always, your mileage will vary. Mine keeps going up.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by ewdysar » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:46 am

It’s clear that each of us have our own “line” that we believe should not be crossed. For me, the term “unmolested” helps draw that line. So gas, oil, and tires are all just maintenance items and should not affect the originality of the car. I think that most of us would agree that safety glass and bronze thrust washers are not optional for safe operation, so they too get a passing grade. From there, we get into the debatable zone. If your radiator has gotten past repairability, a new one is required, round tube cores are considered “original”, but what about flat tube cores? In my mind, flat tubes are ok for anything but car show judging. How about Rocky Mountain brakes or a Ruckstell axle? Both were period accessories, from what I’ve heard, the only ones endorsed by Henry himself. For me, they get a pass and cars with these items are still unmolested in my opinion. External tube front oiler? Timken front wheel bearings? Stromberg or Zenith carbs? Ok by me. Modern “lawn mower” replacement carb? Not so much. I believe that alternators are out of bounds for “authentic”, but what about replacing the generator cutout with a voltage regulator? The list could go on forever, and based on the history of the MTFCA board, it does.

I guess the point is that where each of us draw the line is a personal opinion. Personally, I tend toward “steward” rather than “owner”, “preservation” over “conservation”, but sometimes I cross even my own line. When it comes to these kinds of personal choices, I believe that leading by example is more effective than proselytizing. I can share my opinion and try to live up to my personal ideals and you can do with that whatever you wish.

Keep crankin’
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:29 am

I wonder, if you bought, say, 1908 Model T serial #25 that was essentially original construction or restored to original specs, engine, drivetrain, etc., who here would pull the engine out and replace it so as to have an engine with a starter, alternator, turnsignals and add disk brakes to make it safer?

Or, do the same thing to a similar 1918 T?

Is there a difference?
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:49 am

I have seen many "restored" T's with absolutely perfect paint jobs. So can such a car be called "authentic" if any part of it was repainted? If paint is put into the "maintenance" category then why not spark plugs. To paraphrase: "Authenticity is in the eye of the beholder!"

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Mark Gregush » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:01 pm

Think about how many times the question has been asked about adding starters to pre starter cars. I would not put the early cars into the same group as the 1914 era cars up er, they are more likely being driven more often then say 1908, 09, 10, 11, 12 or 13. I bet there are more then a few really early T's out there that have updated power plants, esp given the cost of some parts. Go to a Horseless Carriage meet and see how many of the cars have starters added. My Friends early 1912 is still a stem winder but at some point because of his age a starter might be needed. Even it does not factory stock body. At some point in its 100+ year history the front seat back was changed to fold down for camping. It also has battery powered tail/brake light and used for starting along with the 1914 style coil box. He want to change the coil box back to stock. I told him it's been on there for over 60 years, why change it?
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by AndyClary » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:28 pm

Again, we are blurring the authentic vs original line. My 14 runabout is not original, but I believe it to be an authentic restoration. It is not presented as original. When starters and turn signals and such are added, you move from authentic to modified. Original and authentic are two different discussions. The vast majority of Ts i have seen on national tours are what would be considered modified.

Andy


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Tmodelt » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:25 pm

I was under the impression that "Henry" offered the bare running chassis so that the purchaser could modify to their specific desires e.g. trucks, tractors, snowflyers. To each his own.

Being the shade tree mechanic/engineer that I am, I have opted to upgrade all three of my Ts for safety reasons (led lights, brake light, turn signals, brakes). Most of these items I have hidden to some degree to satisfy the purist. Some things just can't be hidden as easily.

Kim R. Wynn

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by George Mills » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:04 pm

Taking a perfectly good original piece and cobbling it up to be something it didn’t start out as can be called heresy and sacrilige since it can’t be put back to original, but is the owner choice...

I’m not saying it is the OP but after near 50 years into this stuff, it seems to me that the most who get red faced over “purity” tend to be the ones with the biggest secrets to hide! Or perhaps they learned that a good percentage of their own car came out of a Western Auto catalogue.

I know of someone who drinks the purity juice. He’s got a good one for everything post brass....”If it ain’t got a Ford script on it...it came from Western Auto” and then he goes on to explain how Western castings were better that Ford...how folks back then claimed you could dang near build a whole Ford car without any Ford parts from Western...lol. I always suspected that he got burned on an original original buy, but don’t care to ask...

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by RustyFords » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:21 pm

My 24 was used thoroughly on a Texas cotton farm during WW2. Mechanically, it was shot and the body shows all kinds of signs of heavy farm use while remaining remarkably rust and rot free. It even managed to hold onto most of the factory black paint, although it's VERY thin.

I'm having a great time putting it back to how it looked during that time-frame while making it mechanically as good as possible. My goal is to have a car that I could place in a time machine back to 1943 and have no one be able to find a thing out of place. There are a few things out of sight, like a modern pinion bearing, that would raise some eyebrows, but you can't see them.

As far as what other people do with their cars....I was raised by Texas farmers and lawmen. To say we don't especially appreciate being told what to do by other people, with our property, is the height of understatement.

I do however, sense the Sword of Damocles pressing down on me and my wife is wielding it. She's insisting that I rig up a brake light switch and brake light if I continue insisting on driving it all over the public roads around here (and I do). She also wants me to put one or more of those magnetic bicycle flashy lights on the back (that doesn't bother me as much because I can take them off when I arrive at my destination).
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:40 pm

I can't tell people how to spend their money, but if you don't feel safe on public roads without good lighting, you might consider adding it temporarily.

Another option is to trailer it whenever possible.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:42 pm

You're never "safe" in a Model T, and it is far worse at night, even if lit up like Las Vegas.
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Tom Hicks » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:00 pm

I think all modifications are fine for better safety and performance. But, I think it best to avoid modifications that are not reversible. For example, why should anyone care if you have an alternator, it can always be removed and replaced with a generator.

If your car is a driver on modern roads, I suggest lots of safety upgrades like lighting, braking, and a more powerful drivetrain.

If it is just for parades or trailered to shows, it probably does not need any upgrades.
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Tom Hicks » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:03 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:42 pm
You're never "safe" in a Model T, and it is far worse at night, even if lit up like Las Vegas.
A lot of my driving is at night or very early morning, midnight to 4:00 a.m. I feel safer at night than in the day. Often I drive ten miles without seeing another car on the road.

Why do you feel that night driving is more dangerous?
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:02 pm

I think we're lucky they still let us Drive Model T's on the roads. I doubt the same could be said for all earlier cars.
Does anyone know if the curved-dash Olds is road-legal?

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by AdminJeff » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:28 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:29 am
I wonder, if you bought, say, 1908 Model T serial #25 that was essentially original construction or restored to original specs, engine, drivetrain, etc., who here would pull the engine out and replace it so as to have an engine with a starter, alternator, turnsignals and add disk brakes to make it safer?
Or, do the same thing to a similar 1918 T
Is there a difference?
I’d also lower it and put mag wheels on it. Oh and fuzzy dice hanging off the period correct rear view mirror, of course.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Novice » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:01 pm

Tom. Night driving can be dangerous depending on the car, road and traffic. I don't think there is much of a head on threat but there is GREAT DANGER from vehicles coming up behind You. Black rear end of a Model T very hard to see in the dark. You are going 25 to 30 MPH with drivers behind You doing 45 to 75. If the rear of the car is lit up like a Christmas tree with a slow moving triangle on the back Your odds of not getting hit improve. They also make Hockey Puck type LED magnetic rechargeable battery emergency lights / Flare that can be set for different attention getting patterns. very bright. $25 on E-Bay Schumacher SL159.
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by babychadwick » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:28 pm

If you are upgrading your model T to be safe . . .

Newsflash
It never will be "safe"


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Burger in Spokane » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:38 pm

After a few semi-close calls with stunt drivers doing stupid #@! around my TT
in traffic, I began to think about better lighting. Trouble is, the easy route is
abhorrently ugly and wrong on a car like a T, and period appropriate fixtures
are hard to find, and plenty of work to build into a working system. But being
that guy who dwells in an alternate universe of ild junk, I set about seeing what
I could find and looking into what it would take to mate it up with modern guts
that hide well inside the old fixtures.

I have no desire to make my headlights brighter. The soft glow of the original
type lighting is as important to me as the wood spoke wheels or other defining
period character. I can see what is up ahead of me well enough in the dark, at
the speeds I drive. Others can see the headlights, no problem. The single tail
light is another matter. So, I am looking for other options.

The nice thing about LED (diodes) is that they can be micro-tiny, and still give
off quite an eye-catching light. Light bars, like what law enforcement uses can
appear thin and an unobtrusive grey until lit up. Currently I am looking into a
sensor that will fire off such a light automatically, as a vehicle comes up from
behind. A sudden, short *sparkle* to catch the inattentive driver's attention,
before they get too close.

I plan to have the turn signals and stop light system installed this winter. The
rear approach sparklers idea has yet to gel.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:08 pm


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by ewdysar » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:55 pm

I think that you meant this for another thread....


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Tom Hicks » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:43 pm

There is a far greater chance of being rear ended during daytime driving than at night in my T's.

I just took these pictures of my T Limo which I am about to drive to the gym. I set the camera for "no flash". The LEDs are so bright that the camera automatically dumbs the brightness down. They are much brighter than shown in the pictures. Other drivers can't do that, this thing looks like an alien transport vehicle getting ready to head back to the mother ship. You can't miss t if you have your eyes open. And, since the light pattern is distinctively different, other drivers pay attention.

Night driving is much safer here than day driving. I seldom see more than a few cars in the five mile drive each way. And they SEE me!
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Tom Hicks » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:59 am

Just got back from the gym. There were six other cars on the road, five going the other direction and one which passed me in a short stretch which is dual lane with wide bike lanes and 45 mph limit. No deer, which was a surprise. The drive is five miles each way.

Driving a Model T without upgraded lighting at night is foolish and rude to other drivers. But, with adequate LED lighting, night driving is safer than daytime driving. You are easier to see, and there are far fewer cars on the road.
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by 46woodduck » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:14 am

Just because they didn't have taillights, brake lights and turn signals from the factory doesn't mean it makes sense to go out into today's traffic without them. Some modifications make sense if you are going to use the vehicle.
Life is good on the lunatic fringe. Tom


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Dallas Landers » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:43 am

20190612_194917.jpg
Not original. I hate the led light look at night in the oil lights but with the period reflectors and led's in the oil lights, its very visable at night. Daytime it still has a period look. This photo was taken in the daytime with just the flash from my phone on the reflectors. No wires as the led's are AA battery powered. No stop or turn lights but nobody uses them anyway. I am fortunate to live in Amish country where drivers are used to slow moving vehicles. My 26 RPU has clip on led bicycle lights that flash. Super bright that can be removed in ten seconds. As for other modifications, to each his own. What the car is used for and traffic conditions probably dictate mods wanted or needed to be safe or at least feel safe. I like the period look and feel of the T and try to keep mine as close as I can. I would never critisize another person for what mods they do on "their" car. As far as saftey, I feel as safe as any other car I own. If I lived in constant fear driving it, why would I want one?


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by fliverfan » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:41 am

How is hauling a T around on or in a trailer authentic?


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:19 am

Ouch!!! Some bandaids required!

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:20 am

ewdysar wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:55 pm
I think that you meant this for another thread....
Perhaps, but we were discussing road safety.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:23 am

fliverfan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:41 am
How is hauling a T around on or in a trailer authentic?
If it prevents you from installing modern brakes, lighting, engines, etc, you can keep the car more authentic because it doesn't have to be as road-worthy.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Rich Eagle » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:36 am

Like water pump and oil discussions this topic brings out the best in all of us. It's is good to have strong opinions and know we are doing things the best way possible. I can usually justify the way I have done things but have gotten used to being told how misguided my decisions are.
This does bring out a bevy of options to consider. Views may change over the years also.
Best of luck and have fun with what ever you do.
Rich
When did I do that?


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by 46woodduck » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:52 am

As in riding a motorcycle, drive defensively and always figure that they will do something you would never expect.
Life is good on the lunatic fringe. Tom


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:19 pm

Rich and Thomas,

Yes, opinions and holding to your values are a great thing for sure! I for one respect everyone(s) view with total respect, just having fun cutting up so to say. Mentoring the hobby is first in order to keep it alive, to include within reason modifications in modern times “Road Safety”.

Everyone, please have a Great Day!,

Humbled Hank


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Rich Bingham » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:34 pm

Rich Eagle wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:36 am
. . .Views may change over the years . . .
I believe they have, and will certainly continue to do so. When we began our Model T journey over 50 years ago, most perceived the restoration process to mean total disassembly and re-painting, replacing and re-plating everything "brand new". This was unfortunate, as many nicely "intact" examples of all makes were scattered, as owners ran out of time, money, skill and ambition. The trend toward "conservation" and an appreciation of "patina" are evidence of a mature approach to "old cars", and that's a good thing.
"Get a horse !"

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by RustyFords » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:58 pm

Rich Bingham wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:34 pm
The trend toward "conservation" and an appreciation of "patina" are evidence of a mature approach to "old cars", and that's a good thing.
I couldn't agree more. Fortunately, there seem to be a good number of Model T's that are being preserved.

When I was heavy into Model A's, I noticed that a much greater percentage of them had been vigorously over-restored. This included cars that were extraodinary survivors before being torn down. It was a shame really. Solid old cars, wearing 90 % or more of their original paint really should be preserved. I am consistent however, and would never tell someone what to do with their car, but I have to admit that it makes me cringe when I see a true survivor being stripped down for a nut-and-bolt restoration.

The worst example I ever saw of this was about 5 years ago. An acquaintance of my dad's had just acquired a '34 Ford V8 Coupe that had been put in storage during the early 50's. It was remarkable. The black paint was 98% intact and that other 2% was where the red primer was starting to show through on the very tops of the fenders. There were just a few parking lots dings and no major body damage. After a fluid change, the flathead fired up and idled. I had a chance to ogle this car for about an hour and made an $25K offer on it that was declined. He wanted twice that amount.

Fastforward about 6 months and I was informed by my dad that the guy had pulled the car apart and was prepping the body for a re-spray. I know it was just an old car and not even mine, but I still felt like someone punched me in the gut.
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:23 pm

RustyFords wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:58 pm
Rich Bingham wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:34 pm
The trend toward "conservation" and an appreciation of "patina" are evidence of a mature approach to "old cars", and that's a good thing.
I couldn't agree more. Fortunately, there seem to be a good number of Model T's that are being preserved.

When I was heavy into Model A's, I noticed that a much greater percentage of them had been vigorously over-restored. This included cars that were extraodinary survivors before being torn down. It was a shame really. Solid old cars, wearing 90 % or more of their original paint really should be preserved. I am consistent however, and would never tell someone what to do with their car, but I have to admit that it makes me cringe when I see a true survivor being stripped down for a nut-and-bolt restoration.

The worst example I ever saw of this was about 5 years ago. An acquaintance of my dad's had just acquired a '34 Ford V8 Coupe that had been put in storage during the early 50's. It was remarkable. The black paint was 98% intact and that other 2% was where the red primer was starting to show through on the very tops of the fenders. There were just a few parking lots dings and no major body damage. After a fluid change, the flathead fired up and idled. I had a chance to ogle this car for about an hour and made an $25K offer on it that was declined. He wanted twice that amount.

Fastforward about 6 months and I was informed by my dad that the guy had pulled the car apart and was prepping the body for a re-spray. I know it was just an old car and not even mine, but I still felt like someone punched me in the gut.
I get the same feeling when they tear down a beautiful stone building to put in a shopping center.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Matt in California » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:53 pm

Perhaps we just need a handful of terms to describe each type of Model T. Here is a start:

Restored Model T: To be 100% restored each part must be brought back to original condition. New replacement parts can be used if not detectable in inspection. Safety items may or may be acceptable depending on whoever is judging. I believe this was very popular for many years in this club.

Hot Rod: This could be devided into early hotrods (Pre 1970s), more recent hot rods and kit cars. My dad made this hotrod in the 1960s (I understand that the body, frame and most of the driveline was all Ford parts customized):
1969 Teachers T.tif.jpg

Bitsa: Here you can put together a model T from model T parts over a number of years. The Montana 500 has a very tasteful selection of such cars.

Speedster: A Model T chassis essentially with a seat and what ever the designer decides fits there desires.

Unmolested: This is an original car never changed from factory. Perhaps has some period accessories. See Phil Milo's (RIP) 1911 T here: https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6710
1911 T.jpeg
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Unrestored: This is a vehicle that's best days have passed...

Barn Find: Vehicle that has been stored without improvements for a very long time.

Each person has preferences. We don't have to agree. I get frustrated looking for a T on ebay and finding a Hot Rod without a single ford component. And even more frustrated to see someone paying multiple times as much as my car is worth...

Have fun enjoy your T!

Matt
Last edited by Matt in California on Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Burger in Spokane » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:34 pm

I spent the first three decades of my old car hobby drinking the standard hobby "Kool-Aid"
that everything has to be made pretty and perfect. But a 1st Class body and paint job on a
50's car will easily exceed $15K, and can go north of $30K. Add in $10K+ worth of chrome ...
.... this isn't fun anymore, Toto ! The worry and fuss over grocery cart warriors, priority
texting, and red light runners turned a carefree driving ownership into something I want to
keep deep in the vault.

On the flip side, over the past 30 years, a growing self awareness that I enjoy the "barn
fresh" excitement FAR more than any pleasure I have when the long and tedious restoration
is done, .... I have just lost all interest in pristine cars. Mine, others, whatever. My total
appreciation is in the history and state of preservation a vehicle might be in. Repairs, "fixes",
dings and dents, it is all part of the story a vehicle carries with it. I like that "story" more than
I like some no-story example. That's just me. I am tired of costly and endless restorations that
leave me with a car I am always worrying about getting damaged. I am worn out on puffed up
"red Corvette" personalities and their "just so" paradigm. I want to go haul firewood and let
little kids sit behind the wheel and just have fun. An old beater TT flatbed is just the ticket.
It looks like a decently cared for used truck, circa 1937. It has a few old "updates", but captures
the pre-war feel very well, without the pretense of being perfect. That is where I have settled
to in what I like best in an old car after all these years.
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:02 pm

Burger

I think you are not alone in your epiphany. I see growing interest in just that sort of car, and think I first realized it at a "Prestegious" car show where my driver was garnering more attention than the shiny cars in our row, at the low end of the budget. A few rows over, I drooled with the rest of them over the huge Cadillacs, etc. I love them, but wouldn't own one, for just the feelings and fears that you described. Now, if I happened upon an American Underslung at the right price, and I had won the Lottery, I might lower my standards and snatch up that baby!

The most interesting fender, to me, is the T fender sporting a home-made patch and hand hammered rivets holding it all together. That beats the deepest shine or most expensive paint possible. It also tells a tale of a very different country and era. It's one thing to look at a Dorothea Lange photo of the Great Depression and quite another, to lay your hand on a utilitarian machine that gave it's all to survive through it and imagine the people who's lives may very well have depended on it.
Scott Conger

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by John Codman » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:44 pm

My T has a sealed bearing fan pulley to keep the pulley from slinging grease all over the engine compartment. I think Henry would have used it if it were available in 1927. I also have a modern, Berg's flat-tube radiator so that it cools beautifully. It also has Snyder's repro stainless spark and throttle rods (my originals were worn halfway through) Aside from that, my '27 is as original as I can make it. I agree with the OP.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:19 pm

Matt in California wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:53 pm

Each person has preferences. We don't have to agree. I get frustrated looking for a T on ebay and finding a Hot Rod without a single ford component. And even more frustrated to see someone paying multiple times as much as my car is worth...
I thought that was illegal since Boyd Coddington was convicted of selling vintage cars made up of mostly new parts.
From Wikipedia:
In his later days, he began registering cars that were essentially completely custom fabrications as antique automobiles, avoiding major emissions restrictions and tax liabilities. California officials considered this a "ship of Theseus" fraud, claiming that so many central elements were replaced, the cars ceased to be the same entity. Coddington was charged with a misdemeanor and pleaded guilty on April 7, 2005.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by d stroud » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:38 am

Dallas, nice reflectors and taillights, where did you find them and the brackets? :lol: :lol: :lol: Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Gil Fitzhugh » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:23 am

A curved dash Olds is just as street legal as a Model T. If it weren't, I'd be writing this from jail. But just because something isn't illegal (yet) doesn't mean it's always a good idea. I'm careful about when and where I drive my T, and my Olds, and my Stanley. The fatality on the London to Brighton happened because the driver made a tragic mistake and went onto the wrong road. What led to the mistake is something we'll probably never know. We all make mistakes, but most of them don't end up in a death.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Tom Hicks » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:46 am

Matt in California wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:53 pm
Each person has preferences. We don't have to agree. I get frustrated looking for a T on ebay and finding a Hot Rod without a single ford component.

Matt
Many "T's" on eBay look a lot like this.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1923-Ford-Mode ... SwGj9dwGM7

Is a car like this street legal? Would an insurance company cover it?
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Banjoe » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:03 am

A pretty heavy discussion during the day's first cup of coffee and each view has clear and valuable insight. The Boyd Coddington / Ship of Theseus diversion was an excellent learning opportunity, by the way.

Reading not only the lines but between them as well, there seems to be a strong consensus held by all. If your Model T is giving you joy, you are doing right by each other. Keep each other smiling and safe on the road.
None of us is as smart as all of us.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Rich Eagle » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:42 am

The T bucket on Ebay is like many I thought were the ultimate car when I was a kid. Hot Rod magazine and others got me interested in cars. I had great plans to modify my Model A at age 15. It was the influences of local car owners who showed me the value of originality and restoration. What we do with our cars and how we present them will surely shape the views of new hobbyists. This forum serves as a resource for what is correct and not on model Ts. It also shows the many ways to enjoy them.
Rich
When did I do that?


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by fliverfan » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:04 am

Fordwright wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:23 am
fliverfan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:41 am
How is hauling a T around on or in a trailer authentic?
If it prevents you from installing modern brakes, lighting, engines, etc, you can keep the car more authentic because it doesn't have to be as road-worthy.
It doesn't because it requires adding all of those. The fact that the additions are readily reversible is immaterial.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by RustyFords » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:33 am

Scott_Conger wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:02 pm
It's one thing to look at a Dorothea Lange photo of the Great Depression and quite another, to lay your hand on a utilitarian machine that gave it's all to survive through it and imagine the people who's lives may very well have depended on it.
That's so very eloquently stated.

Here's a fender on my T. This car did exactly what you describe above. Look at the detail. They piled things on those fenders and had to install the fender brace to correct the sag. Something pretty dramatic happened to cause the big gouge. There's probably a story that goes with it that some long-passed person may have told and how his dad was fit to be tied. And this is just one fender. I could post dozens of photos like this. This is the same paint that they touched...the same nuts and bolts that they installed.

IMG_7740.jpg

Restoring this car to like-new condition would be a crime. It would erase that history.

I'm not running down completely restored cars. I've had several. But it is nice to see that more and more people are starting to ask if that's always the best treatment for a car before it happens.
1924 Touring

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:53 am

fliverfan wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:04 am
Fordwright wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:23 am
fliverfan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:41 am
How is hauling a T around on or in a trailer authentic?
If it prevents you from installing modern brakes, lighting, engines, etc, you can keep the car more authentic because it doesn't have to be as road-worthy.
It doesn't because it requires adding all of those. The fact that the additions are readily reversible is immaterial.
I'm not sure I understand. If you don't drive it and only trailer it around, how are those things required?

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:11 pm

Model T vintage authenticity versus wine vintages. Here is a full bottle of 1963 Château Lafite Rothschild, Pauillac list price is over $800. Now some will immediately reject buying a bottle of anything for $800 (Oilzum?). Putting aside all negativism's you may have about alcohol and price what would you advise the owner to do with it. 1. Put it on the shelf, as is, and admire it; 2. Put a reproduction label on it; 3. Refresh it contents; 4. Do both 2&3; or 5. Open it and enjoy its contents.
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1963_lafite_label_768x.jpg

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:18 pm

#5 ^ :lol: What good is old wine besides enjoying and remembering the taste. If it's still even good to drink!
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Matt in California
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Matt in California » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:03 pm

Mark Gregush,
Regarding your earlier comment:
Fordwright wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:19 pm
I thought that was illegal since Boyd Coddington was convicted of selling vintage cars made up of mostly new parts.
From Wikipedia:
In his later days, he began registering cars that were essentially completely custom fabrications as antique automobiles, avoiding major emissions restrictions and tax liabilities. California officials considered this a "ship of Theseus" fraud, claiming that so many central elements were replaced, the cars ceased to be the same entity. Coddington was charged with a misdemeanor and pleaded guilty on April 7, 2005.
In short it is my understanding fiberglass Model T kit cars are not illegal, they just have to meet the legal requirements (i.e. smog) for the year that they are first registered. It sounds like Boyd Coddington was not doing that.

Ship of Theseus
Wow! Like Banjoe mentioned this is really insightful. The thought that in 500BC the topic of restoration and authenticity of vehicles came up is mind blowing to me! The following is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus:
If it is supposed that the famous ship sailed by the hero Theseus in a great battle has been kept in a harbour as a museum piece, and as the years went by some of the wooden parts began to rot and were replaced by new ones then, after a century or so, all of the parts had been replaced. The question then is if the "restored" ship is still the same object as the original.

If it is then supposed that each of the removed pieces were stored in a warehouse, and after the century, technology developed to cure their rotting and enabled them to be put back together to make a ship, then the question is if this "reconstructed" ship is still the original ship. And if so, then the question also regards the restored ship in the harbour still being the original ship as well.
All I can say is this forum thread is beginning to sound like some Greek philosophers!

Matt


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by otrcman » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:33 pm

Threads like this can be real eye-openers.

Just about the time I get comfortable with a group of crusty old gear heads, it turns out that many are inellectuals and deep thinkers in disguise !


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:12 pm

These upgrades do not in anyway distract value, actually in my experience makes them more valuable as people see the safety aspect. This is all bolt on so removal is simple to put back to the original way. Even the electrical add on's are attached to existing looms by means of waxed string.

IMG_0204.jpeg
IMG_0196.jpeg
IMG_0208.jpeg
IMG_0207.jpeg
IMG_0211.jpeg

Enjoy!

Hank


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Dallas Landers » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:09 pm

Sure is shiney for an old used truck ! From outside you would never know. :geek:


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:29 pm

Waxed tie-cord tells me someone spent time building electonics in the AeroSpace industry.

Hank, is this your work, or was it brought to you to replace a fuse?

;)
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:42 pm

Scott this was my last full restoration for hire. A Very Dear Friend, Dr Gary Flandro, a real Rocket Scientist, Aerospace Engineer, Astro Physicist, Etc. He was the one in the 1960's whom came up with the Voyager 1 & 2 Grand Tour idea. A wonderful human being and very modest. Please check him out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Flandro

I am still on speed dial when he drives it, he over thinks things but I love it! He is now the student! LOL

Thank You,

Hank

P.S. Yeah, many years in aviation, aviation weapons, tactics, and development.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by George Mills » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:33 pm

Aye, but to be authentic...the waxed cord should maybe be tied with surgeon knots??

Just asking for a friend 😝

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by ewdysar » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:49 pm

More on the philosophical musings:
http://www.thefullwiki.org/George_Washington%27s_axe

some excerpts:

“Similarly, the human body constantly creates new cells as old cells die. The average age of cells in an adult body may be less than 10 years.”. So, are you living in the body that you were born into? Is your body original, authentic, or....? :shock:

George Washington's axe
"George Washington's axe" (sometimes "my grandfather's axe") is the subject of an apocryphal story of unknown origin in which the famous artifact is "still George Washington's axe" despite having had both its head and handle replaced.
...as in the case of the owner of George Washington's axe which has three times had its handle replaced and twice had its head replaced!
—Ray Broadus Browne, Objects of Special Devotion: Fetishism in Popular Culture, p. 134

Understandings of this concept may differ between cultures, with anecdotal evidence indicating that it is not regarded as a paradox in Japan. In his book Last Chance to See, Douglas Adams observed:
I remembered once, in Japan, having been to see the Gold Pavilion Temple in Kyoto and being mildly surprised at quite how well it had weathered the passage of time since it was first built in the fourteenth century. I was told it hadn't weathered well at all, and had in fact been burnt to the ground twice in this century. "So it isn't the original building?" I had asked my Japanese guide.
"But yes, of course it is," he insisted, rather surprised at my question.
"But it's burnt down?"
"Yes."
"Twice."
"Many times."
"And rebuilt."
"Of course. It is an important and historic building."
"With completely new materials."
"But of course. It was burnt down."
"So how can it be the same building?"
"It is always the same building."
I had to admit to myself that this was in fact a perfectly rational point of view, it merely started from an unexpected premise. The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building. The intention of the original builders is what survives. The wood of which the design is constructed decays and is replaced when necessary. To be overly concerned with the original materials, which are merely sentimental souvenirs of the past, is to fail to see the living building itself.
—Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See, p. 149[13]
Another Japanese example is the 20-year cycle of rebuilding the Shrine at Ise; the buildings of the inner shrine have been rebuilt every 20 years at least 60 times.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by babychadwick » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:39 pm

I can't help but notice that the purists are the much louder voices on this forum and this topic reflects that. Contrary to opinions the model T was not perfect so unless you plan on having a museum piece as either the survivor or as it came off the line piece then you will make changes to it. Those changes are up to the individual owner and whatever changes are needed in the eyes of the owner to keep their car on the road then I approve.

In the extreme I would rather see a t bucket running down the street then another boring modern car. There are so many model T's lets do what we feel is needed to keep as many on the road and have fun driving.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by ewdysar » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:11 pm

When I get the 105 year old wheels on my ‘14 rebuilt by Stutzman’s, will they be original or authentic? The rims and the hubs will be original, the wood and the hub bolts will be new. Personally, I’ll be calling them original. The Ruckstell axle, the AC small drum brakes, the Brassworks flat tube radiator and the brass Moto-meter, I consider authentic.

From my perspective, my ‘14 is basically original, certainly more so than my father’s “‘16” touring that he put together in the early 60’s. But the grey ‘16 is still all Model T, just too much of a “bitsa” for me to call it original. But it is certainly authentic representation of the Model T hobby in the 1960’s. My modern concession to safety hubs on the rear axle are neither original nor authentic, but what I consider to be a good idea for a driver that lives in the foothills of the San Gabriel mountains.

To each our own...

Eric

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:32 pm

Mark Gregush wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:18 pm
#5 ^ :lol: What good is old wine besides enjoying and remembering the taste. If it's still even good to drink!
You drink the wine, it's gone 12 hours later. You use the car, and it's still in the garage tomorrow.
Not a great example.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by hah » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:44 pm

I guess a bowtie LS is out of the question.


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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by spadpilot » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:07 am

.....a friend who's wisdom I have come to respect once gave me a sticker to place in a not to obvious location on my speedster. The sticker reads as follows:

"I did not build this car to please you. I built it to please me"

Well informed source attribute the quotation to HKL.

Cheers....enjoy your cars regardless of what anyone else thinks!

Best to All

Grasshopper
...some people are like Slinkies....they're generally useless but fun to watch when you push them down the stairs.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:00 am

You drink the wine, it's gone 12 hours later. You use the car, and it's still in the garage tomorrow.
Not a great example.
Wine was never meant to be left in the bottle, it was meant to be enjoyed. So ya it's a great example. A car never driven is like a bottle of wine never drank, it just sits there.

What year kind of antique car do you have?
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by AdminJeff » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:03 am

Fordwright wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:32 pm
Mark Gregush wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:18 pm
#5 ^ :lol: What good is old wine besides enjoying and remembering the taste. If it's still even good to drink!
You drink the wine, it's gone 12 hours later. You use the car, and it's still in the garage tomorrow.
Not a great example.
I think it's a great analogy... but 12 hours...I want to drink with you... I'd get 98% of that '63 Rothschild to myself at the rate you drink... and that's a bottle that likely is still great, even today. And yeah, being in the wine business, I'd absolutely open it and enjoy it. And then put the empty bottle on my wine trophy shelf and enjoy seeing it every day. Just like I drive my T every day. Or sit on a stool in the garage and just stare at it (the wife STILL doesn't understand that).

Jeff
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:06 am

Jeff, Thank you for getting the point about the wine. Most of us are hobbyist not museum curators - like a fine wine our T's are meant to be cherished and enjoyed. We enjoy drinking the wine (working on our T) and when we are done we cherish the bottle (a trophy of our accomplishments).

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:54 pm

AdminJeff wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:03 am
Fordwright wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:32 pm
Mark Gregush wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:18 pm
#5 ^ :lol: What good is old wine besides enjoying and remembering the taste. If it's still even good to drink!
You drink the wine, it's gone 12 hours later. You use the car, and it's still in the garage tomorrow.
Not a great example.
I think it's a great analogy... but 12 hours...I want to drink with you... I'd get 98% of that '63 Rothschild to myself at the rate you drink... and that's a bottle that likely is still great, even today. And yeah, being in the wine business, I'd absolutely open it and enjoy it. And then put the empty bottle on my wine trophy shelf and enjoy seeing it every day. Just like I drive my T every day. Or sit on a stool in the garage and just stare at it (the wife STILL doesn't understand that).

Jeff
I meant by 12 hours, it has left the body.
I didn't say I'd share.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by AndyClary » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:41 pm

Awesome thread drift ;)

Andy

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by AdminJeff » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:55 pm

Andyclary wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:41 pm
Awesome thread drift ;)
Andy
Now that is funny! Actually epic thread drift in some ways!
29DF46A5-40E5-4304-AACF-30837E6F8CE6.jpeg
29DF46A5-40E5-4304-AACF-30837E6F8CE6.jpeg (19.82 KiB) Viewed 1269 times
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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Dallas Landers » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:03 pm

" Wining" works? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:45 pm

Andyclary wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:41 pm
Awesome thread drift ;)

Andy
Well, we're back from the dead end and on track again.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Bob McDaniel » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:24 am

But if you replace the wine in the bottle is it still the same wine?
Give an old car guy a barn and he won't throw anything away.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:30 am

It is no longer the same wine. AND if you replace/modify/repair/add parts on your T, it is no longer the same T and no longer "original" even if vintage parts are used. But isn't it all about the experience of working on, making it better than it was, driving and owning it that makes us a T owner and not what others think about it. How many of us "sit on a stool in the garage and just stare at it ".

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by AndyClary » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:57 pm

So if you put tires on the Rip Van Winkle car its no longer an original car? I don't buy that train of thought, some parts are wear items whose replacement have no effect on originality. By that way of thinking there are no original cars.

Andy

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:11 pm

They are both consumables if you want to get technical,
but the wine gets used up in hours, while the car can take decades to consume. By "consume" I mean eventually disappear.

Vintage aircraft are a better example perhaps. While there may have been thousands of planes of a particular type during the World Wars, some of them are very rare today. Of the few that didn't get scrapped, a certain number every year are lost to accidents or neglect every year. After 80 or a hundred years of slow attrition, it really adds up, and some are lost for all time.

Now the Model T is not a good example of this, but eventually they will become rarer and rarer. I've heard some estimates that there are still 150,000 model Ts in various condition, from exquisitely restored to needing considerable work. A considerable number have been scrapped over the years, sold for scrap metal or chopped up for hot rods. The largest loss was probably during World War II when there were massive drives to collect scrap metal for the war effort.

I assume Model Ts only really became collectable after WWII, when they were sufficiently rare that people thought they were worth holding on to. Correct me if I'm wrong. The paradox is that with the loss of every vintage relic, the remaining ones become more valuable.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:18 pm

Andyclary wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:57 pm
So if you put tires on the Rip Van Winkle car its no longer an original car? I don't buy that train of thought, some parts are wear items whose replacement have no effect on originality. By that way of thinking there are no original cars.

Andy
I've never heard of anyone being such a purist that they would insist on keeping the original rotten tires on a vintage car.
I think "authentic" means as close to the original as possible.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:29 pm

So I am going to ask the question again. What year and kind of antique car do you have and how about a photo?
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Tom Hicks » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:16 am

Mark Gregush wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:29 pm
So I am going to ask the question again. What year and kind of antique car do you have and how about a photo?
I am up to 5 titled as T's with T engines, transmissions, and rears. No picture of one speedster which is in pieces, but four are shown with a reason they are NOT T's.
Attachments
Not a T - has solenoid gas shut off
Not a T - has solenoid gas shut off
Not a T - has an alternator
Not a T - has an alternator
Not a T - front disc brakes
Not a T - front disc brakes
Not a T - LED headlights
Not a T - LED headlights
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Fordwright » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:22 pm

Bob McDaniel wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:24 am
But if you replace the wine in the bottle is it still the same wine?
Good enough to decorate the mantle, as long as you don't lie about it.

If your Model T is destroyed in a fire, and you repair it with all new parts, it's not much different,
as long as you don't lie about it.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Bob McDaniel » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:12 pm

Mark Gregush wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:29 pm
So I am going to ask the question again. What year and kind of antique car do you have and how about a photo?
Its been a while since some of these were posted so here are some of ours and a couple we had but sold to make more room.
646050.jpg
13 Touring
SANY1541.1.jpg
12 Touring
SANY1717.JPG
09 Touring
SANY1481.JPG
25 Indiana Truck, 26 T,(Sold this year) 31 A, (wifes car) 27 T Touring (was wifes car sold)
Give an old car guy a barn and he won't throw anything away.

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:47 am

I was really asking the person that started the question, but heck post away. Here's mine; (I have the overhead off the 21 to do some work so am running stock head for now)
Attachments
DSCF6162 (2).JPG
DSCF6049.JPG
DSCF6048.JPG
DSCF5989.JPG
DSCF5984.JPG
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:23 am

Just before I took it off I did an in car recharge of the magnets and went back to coils;
Attachments
DSCF7161.JPG
DSCF7160.JPG
DSCF7159.JPG
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: Vintage authenticity?

Post by Original Smith » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:54 am

Isn't that photo taken in a garage by Matt, Phil Mino's 1910 or 11 with the dip door?

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