Interesting H1 look a like

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
JTT3
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:57 am
First Name: John T
Last Name: Tannehill III
Location: Hot Coffee, MS

Interesting H1 look a like

Post by JTT3 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:14 am

I found a curiosity the other day & thought the forum may be interested. Stan Howe have you ever seen one like this?
On the left you will see a H1, on the right the mystery carburetor. As you know the H1 is an all bronze/brass carb but the mystery carb is brass and aluminum I think. Very noticeably lighter than the H1 on the left. The floats are the same and other internals are the same. For me a real curiosity.
Attachments
89502819-991B-4D9B-AC93-D168A8AA2722.jpeg
125D6CCC-C755-4BED-AF4C-BC27E329C20E.jpeg
ABF39DBB-FF2F-43C5-A048-68F6A3453166.jpeg
2E716C4B-9029-423C-8AB2-0E4F8C017389.jpeg
Last edited by JTT3 on Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Dropacent
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Morsher
Location: Norwalk Ohio

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by Dropacent » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:48 am

Metz carb, waltham, Massachusetts


Scott_Conger
Posts: 2219
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:58 am

Tim

you just beat me to it...

also, usually the top is marked "American Watch Tool Co.", which having been a one-time watchmaker, always intrigued me.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Dropacent
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Morsher
Location: Norwalk Ohio

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by Dropacent » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:35 am

Love those little Metz cars. This is probably circa 1913,14 or so. I’d love to have a 2 cylinder plan car. I had a motor years ago, but let it go. I also had a complete 1912 torpedo. The story is Charles Metz was very friendly with Henry, and they tried to get Henry to establish his company in mass.


Model T Mark
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Eyre
Location: Battle Creek Michigan

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by Model T Mark » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:12 pm

Dad and I have a two cylinder plan car. It’s about half restored. They are very interesting little cars. I’d have it done but Model T projects seem to get in the way.


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by wayne sheldon » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:24 pm

Our internet has been out all day! Just got it backup a few minutes ago.
So everyone beat me to it. It is a Metz Carburetor, roughly '12 to '15. I too have a pile of Metz. I would like to get it restored, but not likely at this point. I have at least three major projects that would have to be done before I could spend more than a few minutes sorting Metz pieces.


Allan
Posts: 1009
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by Allan » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:10 pm

Perhaps the most curious thing is the different manufacturers involved. Either there was an arrangement between them or intellectual property theft was alive and well far earlier than generally expected. We can't blame orientals for this one. I wonder if ever there was a stir over this.

Allan from down under.


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by wayne sheldon » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:31 pm

I believe I read some time back that Holley was having enough trouble keeping up with the Ford demands, that they licensed Waltham Manufacturing or American Watch Tool Co to manufacture the knock-offs for Metz. They apparently were legitimate copies. I wish I knew the whole story. I have heard there were connections between Charles Metz and Henry Ford, but I never knew just how much of that story I wanted to believe. I do know that one of Metz's head designers had previously worked for Ford in the initial designs for the model T. It is generally believed that this is why model T and Metz parts are so similar. Although there are slight differences, quite a few key engine parts on a Metz CAN be replaced using Ford parts. A significant advantage if a Metz owner broke down way out in the countryside. Personally,I find it hard to believe that Henry was actually in favor of this. But that story has been around for awhile.


Joe Bell
Posts: 291
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:20 pm
First Name: Joe
Last Name: Bell
Location: Tiffin Ohio
MTFCI Number: 24066

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by Joe Bell » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:42 am

The Metz head has the same bolt pattern as the T with higher compression, two bolt holes need sleeved to work but it makes it run like a scalded dog! A friend has been running one for years.

User avatar

Mopar_man
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:24 pm
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Govoni
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
MTFCA Number: 32331
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:26 pm

I grew up in Waltham. The Metz car Co. and Orient Buckboard are two of my favorites. Waltham has a nice small museum with a lot of company history. Sadly the saw tooth building that they made the cars in was torn down. The watch factory is still there but made into condos. I tried to bid on several Orients (3 of them at Hershey). In the past one came up for auction and sold for 7500. The three that sold the night I went sold for over 20,000. :| :|


BHarper
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Harper
Location: Keene, New Hampshire
MTFCA Number: 5414
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by BHarper » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:44 pm

The Holley H-1 does look much like the American Watch tool Company's aluminum carburettor. I have no idea if any of the parts interchange. I can report that the float and float bowl gasket from a Holley G Do Not fit.

It is my understanding that the Metz Model 22, introduced in 1912, came equipped with a Holley Model S carb and the AWT carb may not have been introduced until sometime in 1914.

I have found the AWT carburettor to provide easy starts and good throttle response. The Model 22 gives sprightly performance with a good power to weight ratio: 22 HP for about 1100 pounds. My only complaint against these carbs is the miserable float valve as it usually leaks. I have had that thing apart more times then I can count. I will have to "have at it" once again.

The picture of the shiney AWT carb is not mine. The picture of the carb on the engine is mine and my 1914 Model 22 Torpedo Runabout.


249577.jpg
249577.jpg (79.34 KiB) Viewed 967 times
197f9f3b-af9f-44e5-98af-7212aeb6b37a.jpg

0827181635a.jpg

0713191443a.jpg
0713191443.jpg


Allan
Posts: 1009
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by Allan » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:19 am

Bill, Stan Howe has developed a fix for the problematic needle and seat in the Holley H1s. he replaces them with a different setup which works up side down to the standard set-up.

Allan from down under.


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by wayne sheldon » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:43 am

Bill H,I do love that Metz of yours!

User avatar

John Warren
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Warren
Location: Henderson, Nevada

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by John Warren » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:14 am

The engine looks to be a model t knockoff, My friend had a Metz and an extra head. We put a model t gasket up to the head and it would work if you moved one head bolt hole. He has since donated the car to a museum. It has been decided that his Metz is one that went to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and back in 1915? He let me drive it before it left, that was quite a treat. :D
24-28 TA race car, 26 Canadian touring, 25 Roadster pickup, 14 Roadster, and 11AB Maxwell runabout
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something :P

User avatar

Topic author
JTT3
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:57 am
First Name: John T
Last Name: Tannehill III
Location: Hot Coffee, MS

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by JTT3 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:40 pm

Thanks for all the info, I went back to look around at some other items the seller had and now that I knew what to look for found this. One more question, is the body aluminum or pot metal? Thanks gents!
Attachments
AC225F8A-C12C-4177-B414-5EE3A814AAE9.jpeg


BHarper
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Harper
Location: Keene, New Hampshire
MTFCA Number: 5414
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Interesting H1 look a like

Post by BHarper » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:32 pm

John, I am so happy for you that you found the AWT Co. name plate. They are hens teeth for sure. Your initiative to return to the seller and have another look certainly paid off.

So, um, er, does he have any Metz bits kicking around?


To Allan Bennett: Thank you for reminding me that Uncle Stan has developed a cure for the runny nose on the H-1. I may have to reach out to him.



To Wayne Sheldon: Thank you! Please feel free to PM me if you ever want to talk Metz.

100_6033a.jpg


To John Warren: Well, I suppose that at first glance it does resemble a Model T engine, but it has significant differences.
Although it has a removable cylinder head, just as the T does, the cylinder block is a separate casting from the upper crankcase. At a time when multi-cylinder engines had their cylinders cast in pairs, the Metz had all four cylinders cast as one piece.
The block sat on a cast iron upper crankcase. The lower crankcase is cast aluminum.
There is an oil pump driven from the rear of the camshaft.
For those of you who have seen a Metz engine and can say "It's an open valve engine, just like a T" well, yes, but no. The block is cast much like an early (open valve) T engine, but from the factory there were stamped steel dust covers enclosing the valve area to keep the oil in and the road debris out. They are often absent on surviving cars. My car has them along with the always missing chain covers.


metz22motor.jpg
post-54178-143139000672.jpg

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic