What is this ??

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Larry e rutt
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What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:50 am

When I pulled the starter bendex off this fell out.. what is it ?
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Re: What is this ??

Post by Adam » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:53 am

It’s a magnet clamp plate that fell off the flywheel. It would be unusual if it didn’t do any damage. There would be the head of a brass screw inside your engine too. Unfortunately, it is now time to pull the engine, remove the hogshead, pan, and transmission. Replace the broken part and look for additional damage.

Just leaving it the way it is and continuing to drive it is risking Thousands of dollars in damage...

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Re: What is this ??

Post by D.Yoder » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:56 am

Time to pull your motor. That is a magnet clamp the brass screw lost its head.


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Derek Kiefer » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:13 am

Take this seriously, a magnet coming apart will do a LOT of damage.

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Re: What is this ??

Post by Ruxstel24 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:39 am

Someone should post a picture of the catastrophic damage aftermath.

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Re: What is this ??

Post by RustyFords » Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:42 pm

Ruxstel24 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:39 am
Someone should post a picture of the catastrophic damage aftermath.
When I was at at Lilleker’s a few weeks ago he showed me an engine he was pulling apart that had a magnet come loose. It looked like a small bomb had gone off inside the hogshead. I should’ve taken a photo of it.
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Re: What is this ??

Post by jiminbartow » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:56 pm

Take this very seriously. You are very lucky to have discovered this when you did. Under load, a magnet coming loose inside the transmission could shatter the hogshead like a bomb and not only destroy your engine but the resulting shrapnel could possibly pose a danger to the cab interior and those occupying it. Jim Patrick

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Re: What is this ??

Post by DanTreace » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:25 pm

Photo posted on forum earlier. A magnet loose at running speed will make big trouble inside :shock:

4C51B354-92C5-4CF7-A288-D1988430B4F8.jpeg
4C51B354-92C5-4CF7-A288-D1988430B4F8.jpeg (119.26 KiB) Viewed 4493 times
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Larry e rutt
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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:48 pm

Ok. I got to figure out how to get the flywheel notch at the correct spot to take the starter off. Take the hogs head off and check out the repairs needed.

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Re: What is this ??

Post by Ruxstel24 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:53 pm

Larry e rutt wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:48 pm
Ok. I got to figure out how to get the flywheel notch at the correct spot to take the starter off. Take the hogs head off and check out the repairs needed.
Did you take the drive/bendix off ??

It’s a lot easier to disassemble with the engine out...and it HAS to come out.


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:05 pm

Larry

find someone locally who is acquainted with this work and ask for help. My guess is that you have already damaged the mag ring, and you really need some boots on the ground helping you at this point.. The good news at this point is that the mag ring is old and very likely damaged from loose parts flying around and needs rebuilding anyway. It's always a good idea to replace with a rebuilt unit when undertaking the sort of repair that you're faced with. This is a very significant teardown that takes special tools and knowledge of what you're doing.

Best of luck.
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Re: What is this ??

Post by Ron Patterson » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:46 pm

Larry
Follow Adams advice or you will facing this.
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Failed Magneto.jpg
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Re: What is this ??

Post by jiminbartow » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:51 pm

While it is a big deal, it really is not that complicated for someone who is mechanically inclined. In 1970, when I was 16, I bought my ‘26 Model T coupe. It was before the internet and with only a copy of the T-1 Model T Service Manual (my copy was green, now a days, they are black), I completely rebuilt my model T, by myself. There is not a bolt or part I have not handled on my T. Until then, I had only worked on lawn mowers, so don’t be too cautious. The Model T is very easy to work on and very forgiving. If you run into a problem, just come on the forum, post a couple of pictures and ask. Chances are, you will come away with the answer you need. Jim Patrick

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Re: What is this ??

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:29 pm

Self Destructive Behavior!

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Re: What is this ??

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:36 pm

Re "the flywheel notch at the correct spot to take the starter off." The notch is in a fixed location on the coil ring, see note above about taking off bendix first.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:01 pm

Ok it didn't take me long to figure out the starter notch.. I got it apart, when I think back the first oil change I did when I bought the car was a year and a half ago and the brass head was in the oil drain plug.. That means it been hanging together at least that long..what I was going after is the low pedal notch. Got that all apart went pretty well, about 3 hours..Now this mag thing popped up.. What are the odds I put it back together and it runs another 20 years ??? I dont disagree it should be rebuilt but next thing you know I won't have my T for the summer... decisions, decisions decisions


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:04 pm

Oh sorry I forgot to post pics..
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20200213_211100.jpg


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:06 pm

More pictures
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20200213_205418.jpg


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:13 pm

My low speed pedal I could move 2.5 inches before it engaged , the pedal hit the metal floor ( with out the floor boards in ) .. can't imagine how they wear like that being in oil ?
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Re: What is this ??

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:59 pm

Are you attempting to drill out the pin holding the low pedal notch ?

You might strongly consider the consequences of what IS going to happen if'n you don't repair the problem as most folks here are offering sound advice !!!


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:00 pm

If it really is a difficult decision after seeing Dan and Ron's pictures, there really isn't anything else anyone can say which will help. The brass screws have crystalized, and more are waiting to fail. If this transmission lasts long enough to undergo a planned rebuild, you will find that other heads will invariably pop off during disassembly, and with remarkably little force.

Good luck.
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Re: What is this ??

Post by Stephen_heatherly » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:09 pm

All I have to say is consider what is pretty much directly above the transmission and magnets when you are driving the car. Having magnets fling off the flywheel at engine speed directly under your feet can cause severe injury to not only the car but also to you and your passenger. It's not worth running the car anymore until this is fixed.

Stephen


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Re: What is this ??

Post by jiminbartow » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:24 pm

Are you seriously delaying a rebuild to address an existing, dangerous and eminent problem because you want to drive it this summer??? Seriously! It would be wise to forego having it this summer and rebuild it so you will have it the next several summers. Either do it voluntarily and inexpensively to an intact engine, or do it involuntarily and expensively to a destroyed engine. It may be ready to explode the next time you run it. Jim Patrick


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:11 am

Ok.. you talked me into it.. thanks I appreciate all the wisdom, I really do.Any recemdations to do the work in the south eastern PA region ??


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Re: What is this ??

Post by OLDTGUY » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:46 am

Larry, Schwalm's Babbitted Bearings in Strasburg Pa. 717-687-6976, Ora Landis will be able to help you.


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Re: What is this ??

Post by tdump » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:03 am

If the engine is running ok,and there were no major problems,you should be able to replace the mag coil, brass screws and plates and reset the gap and put the thing back together.Just because a magnet clamp came off does not mean it needs new piston rings and mains.it is a repair that can be done with time and not to much money. BUT to continue to run it would be like riding a A bomb around .
If you can't help em, don't hinder em'

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Re: What is this ??

Post by dobro1956 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:40 am

I agree with tdump. If the engine is in pretty good shape, then just a "freshing up" may be good enough depending on how you plan to drive the car. But the magnet plates and the brass screws. "MUST" be addressed and replaced. It sounds like you have made the decision to have it fixed. .It may seem like a really big deal. And to a certain extent it is a big deal and a pain in the @$$, and wallet. But pulling the engine and fixing the problem is the "ONLY" good decision there is. Any decision other than fixing the brass screws and plates could make for a very, very, bad day.
I would suggest to also check the valves at this time. If the engine still has the "cast head" two piece valves, they should also be replaced. The "cast head" valves have been know to come off and destroy the piston and sometimes the block. You may be lucky, and the valves are already the newer one piece style

Wishing you good luck, and have fun and be safe ..
Donnie Brown


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Adam » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:57 am

Also... In the picture of your low speed notch, you had questioned how it could have worn that much on the inside with plenty of oil? The answer is that it probably hasn’t... The low pedal needs to travel maybe 2”-3” forward BEFORE it hits the ramp and begins to engage the low band. That first 2”-3” engages neutral. If you “repair” the cam and notch to have zero play, you will not have neutral at the pedal, only at the hand brake lever. Also, most of the repro low speed cams and notches have zero to very little pedal travel for neutral and require very careful repeated grinding & fitting to producers the proper amount of pedal travel before engaging low band.


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:16 pm

Ahha... your right


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Allan » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:22 pm

Adam, you are absolutely correct in that there needs to be some play between the ramps on first gear. In my first attempt to rebuild the ramps on a RHD pedal, I eliminated that play, and had to re-introduce it! 2-3" seems a little excessive though. I would have thought 1.5" would be sufficient, bearing in mind that as things wear, the gap/pedal travel increases anyway.

I was not aware that new first gear ramps and notches did not give the required free play. On our RHD cars these are used on reverse and the brake pedals, where you don't want play anyway.

Allan from down under.


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:23 pm

Alright, the tear down is underway...will this ujoint pull apart ? What do you think of these valves ?? ( new or old )
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Re: What is this ??

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:26 pm

Valves old 2 piece need to be replaced.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... ece+valves
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: What is this ??

Post by Ruxstel24 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:44 pm

U-joint: yes, should slip out.
Valves: appear to be 2 piece, recommended changing.
Good news is it looks like all the cylinders were firing good.
I think if I was this far into it, I would at least look at the crankshaft bearings, but a minor refresh may be all that’s necessary, along with the flywheel of course.
You’re doing good so far ! :)


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Allan » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:29 am

Old two piece valves have those two holes in the head to accommodate a tool used in lapping them in. However, many replacement one piece valves also had the two holes, and can be re-used if good. Look in the ports to see if the head is a separate piece to the stem.

Allan from down under.


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:26 am

Yep.. looks like 2 PC valve's, maybe even about to break...
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Re: What is this ??

Post by John Warren » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:25 am

Looks like time for some nickels too! ( soft plugs )
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Re: What is this ??

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:32 am

Looks like time for some nickels too! ( soft plugs )

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG87.html
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: What is this ??

Post by RustyFords » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:29 pm

I know you’ve already made the decision to tear it down, but just to bolster what Scott said above about the brass screws becoming unstable....

I elected to replace all the brass magnet screws on the engine I’m running in my T now even though none of them had lost a head. On a few of them, just the slightest amount of pressure caused the screw head to pop off. In other words, they were very weak and the likelihood that they would’ve come apart was not small. I use my mag every time I drive my car and do it with a higher degree of confidence than if I’d hadn’t.
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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:51 pm

Here is what happens when r going down the road and you get a piece of dirt at the mag post and switch it back to battery on the fly... isn't this awesome..
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Re: What is this ??

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:56 pm

Yes, not, could be! :lol: I did it in the driveway between houses. :oops:
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: What is this ??

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:04 pm

Here is what happens when r going down the road...

I had fun with the '54 Plymouth, shutting off the ignition and turning it back on. BANG! Luckily I was smart enough to figure out the folks would find out if I destroyed the muffler, so I quit that game before it went that far. :)
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:22 pm

So these washers were in my pan.. and the and the mag spacer in my bendex somehow...but now I have no idea how this animal comes apart..
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20200217_161825.jpg


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:43 pm

That's too bad. Someone left you a "gift" with the band washer and who knows, but it may have taken one or more of the magnet keepers off for you.

Buy the manual and MTFCA booklet on the transmission or better yet, send it to someone with experience and a history of transmissions that have completed a number of tours faultlessly. There is a good deal of inspection and likely machine work ahead, not to mention one-off specialty tools and fixtures needed. For a single transmission job, you'll be far ahead of the game doing that rather than purchase everything you need and trying to farm out individual aspects of the job.
Scott Conger

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Re: What is this ??

Post by tdump » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:14 pm

Why would the transmission and engine need to be completely overhauled just because of the brass screws? Take the 4 bolts loose holding the transmission,determine which brass screws as far as size were used,and put them back in all the way around and replace the transmission on the shaft and check clearance and when finished reassemble?
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Re: What is this ??

Post by Ron Patterson » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:04 pm

Larry
Here is a photo of the first thing that failed. The rest is consequential.
But, I cannot figure how the band adjusting flat washer and lockwasher got loose inside the engine.
Ron
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Failed Magnet Clamp Screw.jpg


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:14 pm

Mack

That would be one way to do it, if you didn't inspect for cracked magnets or replace 100 year old aluminum spools AND were young enough to lift the entire transmission/flywheel off of the crank a bunch of times while setting the mag ring/keeper gap AND the triple gear pins and bushings were in perfect shape.

Myself, I'd pull the drums for that work.

Pulling the drums, and setting mag ring and magnet height typically require specialized tools.

But you're right, replacing one keeper (or all keepers) doesn't require a total transmission or engine rebuild. Only inspection will reveal the extent of repairs that would be prudent. What is prudent to one person is rediculous overkill to another, and I understand that.

The only thing I know about this car is that it might have 2 piece valves, and it ran for a good while with several pieces of loose metal in the bottom of the transmission and that in itself requires careful investigation. But that's just me.
Scott Conger

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Re: What is this ??

Post by CJB » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:06 pm

Ron Patterson wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:04 pm
...I cannot figure how the band adjusting flat washer and lockwasher got loose inside the engine...
My guess is a previous owner dropped them in at some point and chose to just replace them and hope for the best.


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:31 pm

Thanks a ton guys...the triple gears wiggle, the drums slide back and forth about 3.16th of an inch, the gears can actually hit the drum..I think I'll have someone take a look at it... the wealth of knowledge on this forum is amazing...thanks again.


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:11 am

I'm back.Ora Landis is not going to be able to help me... any recommendations as to who can do my transmission work ?


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Re: What is this ??

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:32 pm

Larry

while it may seem that the entire Model T community is On-Line, I can assure you, it is not. The great bulk of membership do not fiddle with this forum...there is potentially lots of help out there, so try contacting a local PA club:

Valley Forge Chapter
c/o Joe Toner
10 Arianna Lane.
Exton, PA 19341
610-594-2545

With a little luck, you should be on the road for spring/summer. Good luck.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


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Larry e rutt
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Location: Ephrata pa

Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:59 pm

Yeppy... got my trans back and I'm ready to start going back together...
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Duey_C
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Re: What is this ??

Post by Duey_C » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:59 pm

Yesss! Excellent news Larry!
Keep us up to date. :)
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated


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Larry e rutt
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Location: Ephrata pa

Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:31 pm

Okay. It's a rainy day here in PA. It's time to bolt the transmission to the crankshaft. There is nothing unsafe about using lock washers there correct?
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Tim Rogers
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Re: What is this ??

Post by Tim Rogers » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:42 pm

I recommend using the correct bolts (no washers) and wire tie them.

Are you able and prepared to set the clearance between the magnet clamps and coil ring? This is very important. Did you check crankshaft end play? Too much travel and you'll have problems.

clearance.jpg
<o><o><o><o> Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks - Forum member since 2013 <o><o><o><o>


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Larry e rutt
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Location: Ephrata pa

Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:56 pm

I did set the clearance..as mentioned on another thread, i checked between the mag ring and the block with the bolts loose....035 the whole way around..worked like a charm....035 between mags and mag ring...I need to work on my wiring.... it looks like I did that one in my sleep..I'll try thinner wire.


Topic author
Larry e rutt
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Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:52 pm
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Location: Ephrata pa

Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:39 pm

So when putting this thing together. I saw this we're at the very corner of the hogshead. Is that supposed to be like that?
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Topic author
Larry e rutt
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:52 pm
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Rutt
Location: Ephrata pa

Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:56 pm

Finally starting to look like something again..
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Topic author
Larry e rutt
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:52 pm
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Rutt
Location: Ephrata pa

Re: What is this ??

Post by Larry e rutt » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:56 pm

Almost ready to crank it over....
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20200423_165451.jpg

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