Spark & Gas levers

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
blgitn
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:36 pm
First Name: Roger
Last Name: Harmon
Location: West Point, VA
MTFCA Number: 16412
Board Member Since: 2007

Spark & Gas levers

Post by blgitn » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:37 pm

Hello all,

How on earth do I get the old levers off the steering gear case and still be able to put the new ones back on?
Thanks in advance.

R/ Roger.

User avatar

Squirrel
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat May 30, 2020 9:54 pm
First Name: Jim
Last Name: Forbes
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Board Member Since: 2020

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by Squirrel » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:39 pm

pry them out, then tap the brass over the new ones. It worked for me

User avatar

REHelgeson
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:13 pm
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Helgeson
Location: Illinois
MTFCA Number: 31827
MTFCI Number: 25052
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by REHelgeson » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:49 pm

Heat the tabs on the steering gear box. Let the tabs cool then pry the tabs just enough to get the spark or throttle rods out. To install heat the tabs and again let them cool. Replace the rods and gently tap the tabs closed over the rods. Brass will break or crack if you try to pry or tap the tabs when they are hot. I've done this several times with much success.

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 1535
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Contact:

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by DanTreace » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:15 pm

Just did that task 2 weeks ago. Thought that propane would heat enough, nope. needed to get red with the acetylene torch.

This case prior to nickel plating, had the rods removed by cutting them off and sliding thru the tabs. So the tabs were closed like factory fitted, and plated over.

To open the tabs back up, heated each one to just dull red, and gently pried them apart just enough to so the new rod would fit.

If you look close you can see the discolored nickel where the heat was applied to the tabs. Just softly hammered close with the ball pein.



Heated red tabs closed over.jpg
case going in.jpg

In goes the fresh nickel plated case with new s.s. rods ...... ;)

IMG_2667.jpg
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford

User avatar

Squirrel
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat May 30, 2020 9:54 pm
First Name: Jim
Last Name: Forbes
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Board Member Since: 2020

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by Squirrel » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:33 pm

Interesting...I did it without heat, worked fine. I guess I got lucky? or it's not really needed?

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 1535
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Contact:

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by DanTreace » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:09 pm

Well, without heat most times some of the ear breaks off.

Then the hold on the rod could be compromised. One can duplicate factory with some heat and prevent the tapered tips of the ears from cracking off :)


Note the upper ear on the left side, that ear cracked off when removing the rod without heat. The other one a bit too, so it doesn't look as good as a repair using heat first.. There was enough of the base of the ear to fit tight into the steering column, many times that is just enough. Sometimes not and the rod will wiggle on this upper end.

close up.jpg
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford


John kuehn
Posts: 1367
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by John kuehn » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:45 pm

I was lucky on one case just carefully prying the tabs just enough to get the rods out.
Taped back down OK.

Not so much on the 21 case!
There was enough of the broken ear to tap back down but I think one more time I wouldn’t be so lucky.


Topic author
blgitn
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:36 pm
First Name: Roger
Last Name: Harmon
Location: West Point, VA
MTFCA Number: 16412
Board Member Since: 2007

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by blgitn » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:24 pm

Copy all: Heat, cool, pry. Heat, cool, crimp.

As luck would have it, I ran out of acetelyne before I got the first side hot. :| I'll have to refill.
I guess I put the felt anti-rattlers half way between the levers and where the rods come out of the column, right?

R/ Roger.


OilyBill
Posts: 245
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:51 pm
First Name: William
Last Name: May
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by OilyBill » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:34 pm

This is a good set of posts on removing rods from the retainers. NOT one of Henry's better ideas.
Same thing with the rivets that hold the upper quadrant in place in the steering post tube. Pure stupidity on Henry's part.
I drill them out, tap the holes in the quadrant casting, and install 4 nickel plated round-head screws.

User avatar

david_dewey
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:42 pm
First Name: David
Last Name: Dewey
Location: Oroville, CA
MTFCI Number: 19936
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by david_dewey » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:38 pm

What about silver soldering (brazing) either the broken piece or a new piece of brass on. I'm thinking you might even be able to do this with the new rod in place. That way, the rod won't wander around.
T'ake care,
David Dewey


Original Smith
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by Original Smith » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:39 am

I've never done it, but if you have an early riveted gear case, you will first have to cut the slot, then proceed.


John Codman
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:27 am
First Name: John
Last Name: Codman
Location: Naples, FL 34120

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by John Codman » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:02 pm

To Oilybill, Agree on the design not being one of Henry's better ideas. I'll go a step further and say that the entire steering column design is pretty bad. The top-mounted gearbox places much more stress on the steering column shaft then a bottom-mounted gearbox, and results in a poorly supported steering wheel.


2nighthawks
Posts: 279
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
Location: Seattle
MTFCA Number: 0
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by 2nighthawks » Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:25 pm

John C. - I agree with what you said about the "top mounted gearbox", and this may be a poor analogy (....altho' the tractor guys will love it....) but the planetary gear reduction at the top end of the steering column reminds me of the seemingly "backwards" design of a lot of farm tractors. I always liked the design like International Harvester designed some of their tractors (and a couple other tractor manufacturers also used) that utilized what's sometimes called,..."bull gears"! By the way, in another current thread, the Model T Ford Stroud Tractor Conversion is a good example of this:

The "bull gear" tractor design consists of a very large ring gear on, or near, the big rear drive wheels, and a very small pinion driving the huge ring gear, which affords most of the gear reduction taking place right "AT" the rear drive wheels. That allows the engine, transmission and any other drive line components ahead of the bull gears to be of much lighter (and cheaper) design. Frankly, I'm not sure why all farm and industrial tractors were not designed with bull gears. But anyway, to me, the planetary gearbox always seems really to be on the wrong end of the steering column!

Hmmm,....sort of "thread drift" again,....gotta' quit that,.....sorry,.....harold

User avatar

VowellArt
Posts: 317
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:44 am
First Name: Martynn
Last Name: Vowell
Location: Sylmar, Commiefornia
MTFCA Number: 9908
Board Member Since: 2012
Contact:

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by VowellArt » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:24 pm

You know those little tab ears that you bend over the shafts? I didn't see any real need for them. When I did mine, they broke and I installed my new Stainless ones anyway, punched swedged the ends a bit and then shove them back in the column housing.

They're held in 3 places anyway, so you probably don't need them at all. They're held at the bottom of the column with the cup and springs, that keep them tight against the quadrant, they're held by the pitman bracket and they're held (or as in my case cradled) on the reduction housing and and the column housing when you slide them back in. Haven't had a problem with them yet and they've been working just fine, my conclusion is that those tabs were just overthinking of Henry's part (I tend to do that on my drawings a lot too). As for the lousy design...yes and no, you got to admit it is a real easy assembly to work on and like all things Model T it is designed around simplicity (and Henry's love of the planetary gear system) and ease of repairing the vehicle (usually anyway you like) when needed. As for the screw idea, yeah I came to the same bloody conclusion there too....it was much easier to thread in those two screws than it would've been to buck those two rivets whilst trying to hold the damnable column without bending or breaking something (me included). ;)
Fun never quits!


Topic author
blgitn
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:36 pm
First Name: Roger
Last Name: Harmon
Location: West Point, VA
MTFCA Number: 16412
Board Member Since: 2007

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by blgitn » Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:59 pm

I got it back together; thanks!
I did a little YouTube plating while it was apart. All you need is vinegar, salt, some nickel and a phone charger.
I masked the sanded (most of) the pits out, masked the threads with some paraffin, and plugged it in. I'm pleased with the results, for a twenty dollar investment.
A.jpg
B.jpg
B1.jpg
C.jpg
D.jpg


Topic author
blgitn
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:36 pm
First Name: Roger
Last Name: Harmon
Location: West Point, VA
MTFCA Number: 16412
Board Member Since: 2007

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by blgitn » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:01 pm

Back together, waiting for re-read install.
Attachments
E.jpg


Allan
Posts: 1691
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by Allan » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:30 pm

Larry raised an interesting point re the early two piece cases. I wonder about the order of building those columns. The lower part of housing has two notches in the flange which would allow the rods to be inserted through the closed 'ears' before the upper gearcase is soldered/riveted in place. That would explain why the rods can be fitted through holes which do not have tabs which can be bent back.

Allan from down under.


D Stroud
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:45 am
First Name: David
Last Name: Stroud
Location: Mound City, MO 64470
Board Member Since: 2011

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by D Stroud » Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:41 am

Roger, can you post a link to the you tube video? What did you use for a source of nickel? Thanks, Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.


Allan
Posts: 1691
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by Allan » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:28 am

David, I have been salting away nickel to have some mascots cast. Among my sources are saddle stirrups and harness buckles. These are often overlooked as brass, but brass makes a mess of vedigrease when exposed to horse sweat. The better quality fittings are solid nickel. Other parts are cast nickel hood bow brackets/butterfies that clamp around the bows when the top is folded. I have found a number of damaged ones. Others may know of other items.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.


Original Smith
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by Original Smith » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:31 pm

Don't use reproduction spark or gas levers. They don't look right. Replate your originals. If the bottom side of the rods are worn, weld them up and dress them down before replating.

User avatar

richc
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:44 pm
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Chillingworth
Location: Tulsa, OK
MTFCA Number: 30527
MTFCI Number: 23207

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by richc » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:05 am

I did what Larry S. suggested regarding filling in the worn segment of the rods before re-plating, and it worked out great.
Rods2.JPG
Rich C.


Topic author
blgitn
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:36 pm
First Name: Roger
Last Name: Harmon
Location: West Point, VA
MTFCA Number: 16412
Board Member Since: 2007

Re: Spark & Gas levers

Post by blgitn » Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:20 pm

D Stroud wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:41 am
Roger, can you post a link to the you tube video? What did you use for a source of nickel? Thanks, Dave

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G-PtnwtOR24

Dave,

Sorry for the wait. Here's the link. I got the source nickel on ebay because it was easy.

R/ Roger.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic