How easily should rear wheels turn?

[rainer]

Hello,
and a Merry Christmas to all!

Today I put my Lizzy on four support frames (I got yesterday) to prevent flattened tires. So I tried to rotate the wheels by hands to test the bearings.

Front wheels run absolutely freely, a little push with a finger tip and they turn multiple times.

Back wheels are much different, they turn much harder.
Of course, the handbrake lever is in middle position, so emergency brakes (should?) be fully released, and gear is in neutral. I also verified that A.C. brakes are fully released, their bands have a little clearance, I can move their bands 1-2 mm sideways. During my first test drives I experienced that emergency brakes are holding properly (no car creeping after cold engine start).

When turning one wheel I can hear a little grinding noise originated in rear brakes. From my opinion it is too much when I need to use more than 4 lbs (2kg) of force on outer wheel diameter to make the wheel turn. It turns really stiff compared to a modern car. From my opinion, it could be the emergency brake system, but I don't know if this is normal or not.

I need to say, I currently have no Rear Wheel Puller, so I cannot pull the wheels to look into brake-drums. This puller (and the hub-cap wrench) are the next tools I will buy, but you know, nobody should buy tools around Christmas or his birthday... This I learned when I bought a car jack for my Lizzy, now I have two.

How easily should rear wheels turn in my case?
As all force applied to one wheel directly goes through the differential to the other wheel, wheels should turn very freely, any stickiness of cold oil inside the High Speed Clutch should not matter at all.

Please let me know.

[Kerry]

Turning will be firm, to spin one wheel will turn the other side in reverse because the clutch pack is dragging on the drive shaft.

[rainer]

Turning will be firm, to spin one wheel will turn the other side in reverse as the clutch pack is dragging on the drive shaft.

Are you sure?

When both wheels - as I described - are lifted (not in touch with floor), the rotation applied to one wheel will be inverted by the small gears in the differential. So this should go easily (and not firm), because the universal joint will not rotate at all (because of stiff oil inside the clutch).
So only the friction caused inside the differential has to be overcome.

But I have lots more friction to overcome. I have to apply more than 4kg of force (= 2 lbs) to the surface of one wheel to make it turn. Hereby I hear a little grinding noise coming from brake drums. So I think that the emergency brake is adjusted a little bit too tight even in released position.

My primary question is to know how much force is "normally needed" to turn the wheels.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Remove the. E brake cLevis pin and try it again.

[Norman Kling]

As stated above they should spin freely but do not keep on spinning like the front wheels. If you are using thick oil in the differential such as 600W it will turn a bit stiffer than it would with 90W. There should be no scraping. If there is a scraping, it is usually in the brake drum. Either the brake scraping or some other part scraping because of wear in the taper or because the drum is moved inward for auxiliary brakes. If either the parking brake or auxiliary brake is too tight, you might also get some friction.
The high speed clutch will not make any difference if both wheels are raised.
Norm

[rainer]

Thanks, Norman.
This is the information I need.

I have ordered today a rear wheel puller plus this little wrench for hub-caps, ... Should arrive within 1-2 weeks because of all this coming holidays.

I will try first with disconnected E-brakes. If there is still some scraping, I will pull the wheels and check what is going on inside the brake drums when the puller arrived.

Do I understand right that axial adjustment of rear wheels (and brake drums hereby) is done with this conical shims? If something scrape because of missing axial spacing on inner side of the drum, I will need to increase the axial gap. I have seen that all spokes on both wheels had a little collision with the very high bolt head of A.C. brakes (the bolt acting as joint). 1-2 mm of wood was literally cut off. But this damage was well painted over by the former owner. I am close to grinding down this bolt heads to half height to make more space, 1/8" to 1/4" is more than sufficient. This will protect the spokes in future.

[DHort]

Rainer

This is how I was taught to tighten the FRONT wheels.

Clean and grease the inner bearing. That one is pretty easy.

Clean and grease the outer bearing. Screw in the bearing with your hand and then the wrench. Spin the wheel as I tighten the bearing with the wrench until it stops. Reverse the bearing 90 degrees. Install the washer and nut. Tighten nut to line up the cotter pin hole. Install cotter pin. Wheel should spin freely, but not too loosely.

Others may do it differently.

[George House]

I’ve had that same realization of degrees of effort in turning rear wheels by hand while in neutral and on jack stand. The offending wheel was the right rear so I removed it. The cam lay flat between the 2 lined brake shoes but said brake shoes were gritty with wear. I’m satisfied the brake linkage and clevis are correctly adjusted. So my question is: is it advisable to grind a little off the top and bottom of the brake cam ??

[Allan]

George, on a car with standard brake drum, standard cast iron shoes, new brake cam there were no problems, even before the components wore somewhat.

If you have linings which are dragging, I presume you have lined brake shoes. If this is the case, it is the linings which need attention, not the cam. Usually the cam needs a special shim slipped over it to restore it to somewhere near its pre-worn dimensions.

Allan from down under.

[George House]

Thanks Allan...It seems to me there are three surfaces that are ‘in play’ resulting in my dragging right rear wheel. And I’m now inclined to believe that surgery on the brake cam is the least desirable. These lined brake shoes have hundreds of miles on them. How about removing the brake shoes and grinding a measurable amount off both ends that contact the cam ? The third surface is, of course, the linings you spoke of.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Do I understand right that axial adjustment of rear wheels (and brake drums hereby) is done with this conical shims?

Not really. Shims are a band-aide approach. If you don't have proper axial clearance, it's due to any combination of worn out hubs, worn out axles, or bad thrust bearings.

[Norman Kling]

If the lining is scraping, it would be either along the diameter, and the high places should be ground down just a little bit to fit the drum. Sometimes the lining hangs over the edge of the shoe and needs to be dressed down. Some modern outer seals are thicker than the original caps over the felt seals and that could cause the scrape. I would say one shim is OK , but two or more shims indicates something needs to be replaced. If the nut has been loose for a period of time (even if it happened before you owned the car) you could have wear on either or both the axle taper or the inside of the hub. In either case replacement is called for. The parts vendors also have longer than standard axles. Those work very well with auxiliary brakes.
Norm

[rainer]

Good morning from Austria.

Did I understand right that there are Emergency Brakes out with lined shoes? I always thought they are working steel-on-steel.

I am afraid I will have to pull the rear wheels to inspect the Emergency Brakes. The sound is not like two hard parts are in touch, it sounds more like soft material is dragging along the drum, the noise is thunk. Steel-on-steel and bad bearings definitely sound different. I will start with left-rear wheel, there I hear more dragging. If I can turn the right wheel freely without left wheel mounted, it must be dragging between shoes and drum and I need to fix that.

First I will disconnect the EBs from hand-lever and push the rods backwards as much as possible (to fully release the EB), then I'll test again if dragging is gone. If not, I'll need to pull the wheels and check if axles turn easily (through the differential). If so (and I am pretty sure it will be), the problem can only be with break shoes, drum, and everything between.
Shouldn't the drum grind linings down on high spots when driving? 4kg (~ 8lbs) on outer diameter of wheels is a bit high, that could cause hot drums... should I grind the linings down a bit? I should see the high spots on linings now.

I found out right now that the rods to the back need re-adjustment. There is a very short range for handbrake lever - outside of half way - where rear wheels spin freely. So this is luckily adjustment from outside the brakes only.


When I had the engine pulled for replacing the High Speed Clutch, I saw that all bands had almost new linings. The HSC also was brand new, but the "smart guy" who installed it forgot to add some steel disks as shims. So the Jack Rabbit was literally unused, the stack was 2mm too thin and therefore never compressed. Also the 4th bearing was replaced by a ball bearing. So I am meanwhile almost sure the former owner restored this Lizzy but finally resigned and sold it (to me). Now I have to redo all poorly done things, but they are sometimes not easy to find.

[TXGOAT2]

It's not unusual for brakes to have very light contact between shoes and drum. It may be due to rust, dirt, or slight out of round in the brake drums. I'd guess that your rear axle stiffness is due to cold lubricant. If you have a safe source of heat available, such as an electric heat lamp, warming the axle for several hours would reveal if the drag is stiff lubricant or some other factor.

[CudaMan]

Model Ts came with bare cast iron emergency brake shoes from the factory, but the vendors sell lined shoes for better braking power:

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2566AQ.aspx

[Steve Jelf]

...I will disconnect the EBs from hand-lever and push the rods backwards as much as possible (to fully release the EB)...

Pushing them back too far may be too far. They should go back only far enough to have the cams parallel to the floor.

Your comment about the previous owner passing his problems on to you prompts me to ask: Do you know whether the rear axle has ever been competently rebuilt? If you're not sure, your only safe choice is to open it up and find out. It's possible that your damaged spokes have something to do with this. http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html

As mentioned above, shims are a Band-aid for worn hubs and axle shafts. While you have the rear axle apart you can install new shafts that are 1/16" longer than standard. That may at least partially compensate for worn hubs.

[CudaMan]

Here is the method I used to adjust the length of my emergency brake rods. It is different from the procedure in the Ford manual.

If the rods are adjusted too short, the emergency brake won't release all the way.

If the rods are adjusted too long, they can prevent the brake lever from staying fully forward in high, which can interfere with full engagement of high gear in the transmission.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1420743911

[rainer]

If the rods are adjusted too short, the emergency brake won't release all the way.
If the rods are adjusted too long, they can prevent the brake lever from staying fully forward in high, which can interfere with full engagement of high gear in the transmission.

Well, in my Lizzy - when I got it - there was a hole in the inner coverage of the body, caused by the lever's upper end. The lever was able to move forward too far but I could feel that there was nothing engaged on last 2" of move. To prevent further damages, I welded a little piece of flat steel to the "ratchet bow", so the lever is now stopped 1/2" before hitting the coverage. -> Has absolutely no negative effect on High Speed clutch. I have adjusted it to have fully closed 2" before lever's end position. The lever is still free (no pressure from High in last 2" of forward move).

I also used the rear part of floor board slot for a self made starter pedal-switch, because the default location of the starter button was exactly where I place my feet during driving. So the starter button is in a safe place now, where it will not be pressed by accident, and there was no need for making new holes into the floor board. The switch itself is now located horizontally approx 2-3" below floor board level and a little bit behind the front edge of the seat (so it is below the tank apartment). It is a bad picture, but you can see the starter pedal. An emergency battery switch is located 4" above the floor board in same corner.

Self made Starter pedal

This way the never used rear 3" of the slot are now partially used by the starter pedal (rearmost 1").

I will put the hand lever into vertical position (this is a little bit before the high starts to be engaged, the picture shows the desired position). Then I will adjust the E-brake rods just enough to get the rear wheels spinning free. This should give me sufficient move to tighten the E-brakes.
I have no idea how to adjust the E brakes in my garage to work symmetric, but I will start with doing the same number of turns on every side. A fine tuning can only be done on a brake tester in next spring.

[rainer]

Your comment about the previous owner passing his problems on to you prompts me to ask: Do you know whether the rear axle has ever been competently rebuilt? If you're not sure, your only safe choice is to open it up and find out. It's possible that your damaged spokes have something to do with this.

Steve, where are this thrust washers located? As they prevent the shaft to move into the differential, I would expect them on outer ends. At the moment I don't have the service manual at hands, it is 30 miles away (where my Lizzy is).
In case that they are worn out, I should be able to move the entire wheel in axial direction (towards and away from differential) when I slightly turn it left/right while pushing/pulling it? This I already tested, there is nothing making me nervous, no noticeable or really little play.
So I think thrust washers should be ok..

About the damaged spokes ... I hope I can describe well enough...
There are two lined bands on outside of emergency brake drums on every side. While the bands inside the engine are in one piece, this A.C. brakes (I think this are A.C. brakes) have two halves, using a 1/2" bolt (or close to this size) as joint on one side, while a release spring + threaded rod + lever are located on other end. This huge joint-bolt (taking the brake force) has a very tall hexagon head. I can imagine this bolt or its mounting plate was lose and/or slowly moved towards the spokes until it got in touch. The head is really very tall, so I will take my grinder with 1mm blade and cut the heads down to 1/4" remaining. This is more than enough for a wrench and I win at least 1/4" of clearance to the spokes.

[Steve Jelf]

...where are this thrust washers located?

[DHort]

Hard to see in Steves picture. On both sides of differential is a steel washer, then thrust washer, then another steel washer. The steel washers have holes in them that go into pins to hold them in place. The pins are set in the differential and the axle housings.

[rainer]

Thank you for showing me the location of this washers.

As I mentioned earlier, I did test the axial play of rear wheels (as wheels are strongly attached to the shaft, an axial movement of the wheel hub will actually show me the axial play inside the differential. I verified by turning the wheel repeatedly 1/8 turn left and right (to make the shaft slide easier through bearings), hereby pulling and pushing it in axial direction. I cannot see any axial move, so the washers should be fine.
I had enough "surprises" with the clutch, I don't want to proceed now with disassembling the differential and rear axle if not necessary - and it does not appear to be necessary.

When I receive the wheel puller, I will have a look into rear brakes. I am interested if they have linings. From dragging noise I would say they have linings, they do not sound like bare metal is in touch.

[dykker5502]

You are not quit there with those thrust washers, as they where originally made of babbit. Now that was good when new, but eventual acid components in the old oil/grease in the rear may over time degrade the babbit so it disintegrate. You do not want that to happen as the original transmission brake then may fail. Your AC brakes may save you here, but you should at some not so distant point in time disassemble the rearend and check. Are they babbit replace with modern brass washer.

[Original Smith]

I have a neutral in my Ruckstell. The rear wheels turn as easily as the fronts.

[CudaMan]

Larry, how did you achieve that? By grinding an extra notch in between the stock two notches for the shift plunger? I thought I read elsewhere in the forum that that was a no-no.

[speedytinc]

Larry, how did you achieve that? By grinding an extra notch in between the stock two notches for the shift plunger? I thought I read elsewhere in the forum that that was a no-no.

Correct. it makes for a very small lock notch for which ever gear you are in. Makes it very more prone to jumping to neutral. Potentially very dangerous. AND NOT ORIGINAL!!

[Original Smith]

I guess if you grind too much of a notch in there, it could be dangerous. My notch in all of my cars is very slight. I've never ever been caught in neutral ever.