How to fill joint gaps in Ash wood framing

[Lew Schiller]

Hello...I used to be a member along with my dad when he and I restored a 1919 touring T in the Late 60's and again in the early Naughts with a 1926 Touring.
That said, I'm here to ask a couple of questions about Ash wood framing and people who know about this are few and far between.
Except for T People.
This is actually about a Morris Minor Traveller on which they use an Ash frame in the rear "Station Wagon" Section.
I just acquired one that has a new wood kit on it but there are gaps in some of the joints. I'm looking for a way to properly fill those.
I also will be staining the wood a bit so whatever I do to fill them would ideally take stain.

Any help appreciated!

[TXGOAT2]

Be sure the gaps aren't necessary to allow for body flex and changing moisture conditions. I don't know if they are or not, but I'd want to know before I filled them.

[Lew Schiller]

Yes - there would be flexing in normal use. I'd post a photo or two but I don't seem to be able to do that

[Allan]

There is far less flexing in a modern one piece body than on a T. The timbers are fixed to the panels, so the joints do not "work". I restored an Austin 7 4 seater variant of a Mini from the 60's, and the joints are neat. The timber will still behave as usual across its width, but there is minimal longitudinal variation, so most joins need to fit accurately. Filler should not be needed.

Allan from down under.

[Art M]

The filler usually falls out when applied in gaps that run with the grain. At least that's been my experience.
Art Mirtes

[Luxford]

Agree with Allan, the wood will be not subject to movement except for normal wood shrinkage and expansion if it is sealed with a good clear varnish.
If there are gaps then fill them with Ash timber. I would glue a small slice of Ash along the grain where the gap is and shape it down so the joint is flush. If you don't have the equipment or ability then find a good woodworker who would be able to do it with ease. When you stain and varnish it should be virtually invisible.

[TXGOAT2]

Exposed wood such as a steering wheel rim or window moldings is one thing, but I'd think structural wood in early car bodies is another thing entirely. Neither the chassis frame or the body is very rigid in most early cars.

[jiminbartow]

How wide are the gaps? Do the pieces screw together or are they glued? If they are glued, you can almost always force the joints closed and clamp when gluing with Titebond yellow exterior glue. You can also do this when screwing together with glue for extra strength. Jim Patrick

[Dropacent]

Glue is NEvER used in wood body joints. EVER ! Components that are made up of smaller pieces, yes, but NEvER in wood body joints. Ask Don Booth what he uses. I believe he uses a 3M marine product. I’ve liked marine goop, a flexible, tenacious sealant. I’ve done a half dozen woodies and other wood framed cars over many years, but still don’t consider myself an expert. Again, JMHO, except for the NEvER part!

[Allan]

It might help if responders were aware of the car type and the woodwork function. A Morris Minor traveller is a 1960's -70s car. As such it has a unitary body construction. The timberwork on them is purely decorative, fixed to the outside of the panels to give the impression of an external frame.

So, the timbers don't move or flex on the body. They are non structural, the joints don't take load, so gluing them can be done. Peter came up with the best solution to closing the gaps in the joints.

Allan from down under.

[Dropacent]

I thought those Morris minors had wooden body frames? Seems that I saw a car show that showed one being assembled. Could be wrong, as I am several times a day ( wifey says )

[Lew Schiller]

The "Traveller Estate" (station wagon) is a modification of the 4 door "Saloon" which has an Ash wood frame starting behind the front seats. This section has an aluminum roof skin and aluminum infill panels closing in the rear.
These are a steel unibody construction. Their vans and pickups are on a separate chassis

[Mark Gregush]

https://www.google.com/search?q=morris+ ... =927&dpr=1

[Dropacent]

Looking that body up, I’d agree with Peter Kable to make the gaps disappear but when assembling to the panels, use something flexible. No Glue.again, JMHO

[Lew Schiller]

Yep. three down and three over is a somewhat nicer version of mine.
The frame is installed. The installer did the best he could with a janky kit from a well known Morris supplier.

[Lew Schiller]

It might help if responders were aware of the car type and the woodwork function. A Morris Minor traveller is a 1960's -70s car. As such it has a unitary body construction. The timberwork on them is purely decorative, fixed to the outside of the panels to give the impression of an external frame.

So, the timbers don't move or flex on the body. They are non structural, the joints don't take load, so gluing them can be done. Peter came up with the best solution to closing the gaps in the joints.

Allan from down under.

That's not correct. The framework is structural. The panels are infil. The vehicle is unibody as in does not have a separate chassis but from the front cab section back the Ash frame is the body structure.
https://www.footmanjames.co.uk/assets/i ... resto2.jpg
https://www.morrisminorowners.co.uk/swa ... dframe.JPG

[Dropacent]

Yup, sure looks structural to me !

[Allan]

My apologies folks. My first hand experience with the Austin 7 mini traveller is different. In this case, the mini traveller is based on the mini van. The timbers are purely decorative in this application. They were affixed to the body with screws through the bodywork from the inside.

Allan from down under.

[Dropacent]

I can’t imagine where 1/4” gaps would be. Just take it apart, tighten it up and screw together ( with some bedding compound). I always stained and finished my wood pieces and put several coats of spar varnish on them before assembly, then vanished again . I am watching the Super Bowl but too many damn commercials !!

[TXGOAT2]

I'd think it would be advantageous to fit all the woodwork, then dry it to about 10% moisture content, then completey seal every part of every piece, including drilled holes, with a suitable material. Then assemble everything. It might be a good idea to let the assembly sit for a few days, then go over it and re-tighten everything and seal any questionable spots before proceeding with further assembly of the car. Any hard-setting material will crack once the car is put in service. I've never seen any evidence of glue or any kind of caulk used in the structural joints of automotive body frame woodwork.

[Dropacent]

That’s because they never used it originally. They also assembled the frameworks and varnished altogether, with poor quality varnish. Back then , people that could afford woodies were told to have their dealer sand and revarnish the body every year. When they no longer were in vogue, and not cared for , it took very little time for bodies to weather and rot. End grain is the weak point in any body.
The modern materials used today and extra care in assembly will allow a nice spar urethane job to not squeak and last 20+ years in many cases. I’ve found several coats of high quality varnish before assembly, and using a clear bedding compound will allow the body to flex and move ( not that you would ever see, and it will also keep moisture out. Invisible to the outside appearance, and 100% reversible. It’s not glue ! ) I’ve got one here I did in 1995 and just about ready for a light sanding and varnish recoat, maybe this spring .

[Lew Schiller]

The large gap is at the top of the doors between door and body /roof. A gasket change will address that.
The joint gaps are +- .025" with one at about .040". I've ordered some Ash veneer from an eBay seller and will see if I can properly use that to fill in then use the Captain Tolley's Crack Sealer as mentioned earlier to seal the edges.

[TXGOAT2]

I ruined a nice new 3/4 plywood floor one time by butting the sheets tightly together when I laid them. The floor looked great and was bug tight, but it popped loudly, and I mean LOUDLY, when anyone walked on it, and the floor seemed to bow up slightly in places when the weather got humid. The cure was to take up the floor covering and run a Skilsaw down every joint that could be reached to open up a slight gap between the sheets of plywood.

[TXGOAT2]

Exposed end grain acts like a wick to absorb moisture and cause rot. For some reason, wood will rot faster when in contact with steel, such as around nails and bolts whenever moisture is present. For that reason, I'd want to seal bolt holes through wooden parts before installing the piece. Car bodies are excellent moisture and dust traps, and any steps you can take when rebuilding one to protect the structure from dirt and moisture are probably well worthwhile. Areas like body sills and the lower ends of door pillars are especially vulnerable, as are windshield headers and any wood located in the lower part of doors or around soft tops or under windows.