Body position issues

[Reno Speedster]

I am still trying to figure out the body placement issue that is causing the hood to be a tight fit on my 22 RPU. I found that I have the wrong frame to firewall brackets for my metal firewall. I think this is contributing to the issue. I want to fully understand the issue before I do anything. Today I crawled under the car and took out some of the bolts attaching the body to the frame. The holes are round and there is not enough room to move the body to the rear the 3/8-1/2 I need.

It looks like there has been some wood replaced in the body, including the lower rails where the steel body mounts are bolted. I wonder if the mounts were installed in the wrong location (based on the wrong frame to firewall brackets) when this wood was replaced. Not sure how to check/confirm this.

I could reposition the brackets by plugging and re-drilling the holes in the rails or slotting them to get ovals which would allow me to move the body. This would work fine for the front bracket. But could be an issue with the mounts on the rear cross member, which is also the fender mount as those bolts go through the body panel.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[speedytinc]

How bout unbolting the body & move it back an inch. Concentrate on your firewall/hood fit. Get that set, then worry about the body. The F/W is fixed with the correct mount. Be sure the radiator mount/pads are all correct.

[TXGOAT2]

I would not modify the vehicle frame. I would find a way to make the body mounts, or the bolt holes in the body mounts, accomodate the frame. If you're certain your frame is un-modified in any way that would affect the body and radiator mounting points, including the mounting points for the radiator and firewall, then I'd want to make the body fit the frame. I think body mount pieces are available repro. If so, modifying new ones to accomodate both the holes now existing in the body wood and in the vehicle frame might be be a solution.

[John.Zibell]

What have you done so far? Have you adjusted the radiator rod? Checked the radiator mounts? A complete list of all you have done on this issue would help in getting an answer.

[Dan Hatch]

What size are bolts that hold body to frame? Should be 7/16” not 1/2”. Dan

[TXGOAT2]

Given the flex in the frame, I don't think you'd want the body mounts to be dowelled to the frame by oversize bolts.

[Reno Speedster]

The radiator mounts are correct, the spacer rod for the radiator is not the issue (you can read about this in a previous post where I figured out I had the wrong firewall brackets) and will be properly adjusted when the body is in the correct location. The frame and it’s mounts have not been modified and the frame is not significantly bent. I found several sizes of bolts in the mounts. I will get the right ones for when it goes back on. But, the difference in bolt sizes is not enough to fix my issue.

I agree about correctly positioning the firewall with the right brackets (once I find some). That will properly position the body. I like to modify as little as possible during these sorts of things. I could move the holes in the brackets, and may have to, but if the wood rail is a replacement, I would rather alter that so stock brackets work.

[Scott_Conger]

You're wise to plan on taking John K's advice.

Myself, I suspect that your assessment of wrong position of body mounts on the new wood is probably correct.

It's easy enough to align things to your satisfaction and then replace each body bracket one at a time with angle iron and custom drill for the frame/bracket location. I say angle iron, as I do not believe there is enough area in an original bracket to elongate the hole enough, plus, you're going to have to account for proper location of rear fender AND move the hole enough to line up with the frame. With angle iron, you can accomplish all of these things handily and no one is going to be the wiser. If it really bothers you, it will not be much work to make the angle iron look nearly exactly like original brackets.

[TRDxB2]

The radiator mounts are correct, the spacer rod for the radiator is not the issue (you can read about this in a previous post where I figured out I had the wrong firewall brackets) and will be properly adjusted when the body is in the correct location. The frame and it’s mounts have not been modified and the frame is not significantly bent. I found several sizes of bolts in the mounts. I will get the right ones for when it goes back on. But, the difference in bolt sizes is not enough to fix my issue.

I agree about correctly positioning the firewall with the right brackets (once I find some). That will properly position the body. I like to modify as little as possible during these sorts of things. I could move the holes in the brackets, and may have to, but if the wood rail is a replacement, I would rather alter that so stock brackets work.

Since one of the issues initially identified where incorrect firewall brackets, perhaps your body mounts and brackets have issues, not properly located. Pictures are always helpful in resolving problems. If you haven't replaced the firewall brackets yet, while your looking for un-welded ones, I'd use ones (welded, or for metal firwall) that would help put things in perspective.

[Reno Speedster]

I have a set of 26-27 firewall bracket around somewhere that I am trying to find (I was tripping over them for years but now that I need them, nowhere to be found). I can use those till I find the correct ones.

(Ps. I was looking at some pictures on my phone and just realized that I couldn’t find the brackets in my parts box because they are bolted on the 26 speedster project! Man the mind is the second thing to go as you get older)

[Scott_Conger]

at least they have pills for the first...

[Reno Speedster]

Yeah.

So I got home from work, took the floor boards out, and found what looks like a block added to the wood frame to move the frame mount back and the body forward about half an inch (see the picture). This does not look right. It amazes me the length folks will go to do something wrong.

[Scott_Conger]

Well, you've just answered the question as to why the body is crowding the hood

Now you're in a bit of a pickle regarding at least the forward brackets as the carriage bolts which mount it to the main sill are covered over by body skin. As you have cyphered out by now, that bracket must go "forward" in order to pull the body "backward" (as well as the other mounts as well).

I personally would pull the 3 nuts holding it to the main rail, remove the forward blocks that do not belong there and weld the carriage bolt holes closed and redrill them over the necessary 1/2" or so to pull the body back. Or conversely weld the mount hole closed in the bracket and redrill (I am suggesting this without having looked at my runabout, so don't know which I'd personally chose right now).

[Reno Speedster]

With a sharp chisel and some patience I can get the blocks off without removing the bolts. Then I will move the brackets to where they should be. It’s easy to plug and re-drill the holes in the wood.

[Scott_Conger]

perhaps the guy lag-screwed the brackets into the main sill? That was the problem that I thought you'd have...that being with the carriage bolts coming in from the outside (side) and not being able to get rid of them sufficiently to plug the holes in the main sill(s)...good luck and glad you found the source of your grief.

[Reno Speedster]

Given the quality of this work, who knows what they did. With my luck, I will need to tear it all apart to fix it.

Actually, having looked it over, I think I will just modify the mounts so the body is properly placed on the frame. If at some point in the future I need to de-skin the body to replace the wood, I can fix it then. With any luck, that won’t be my problem.

[Scott_Conger]

That's certainly the least work, will solve the problem, and will not alter original parts to where they cannot be repaired in the future. That's probably the way I'd go, myself if it were mine. You should be able to just barely squeeze 1/2" hole movement out of the front and middle brackets, but having to keep the fender irons in the correct location will still probably require custom brackets made from angle iron...easy-peasey

[TXGOAT2]

Make the body fit the frame. If you need to move holes in wood parts, coat hardwood dowels in glue and drive them into the existing holes, then re-drill. If the body is correctly positioned on a straight frame, the fenders ought to be in the right place. (Hadn't they?)

[Scott_Conger]

Pat

but for the fact that (if made correctly), the "bolts" are carriage bolts and they are installed through the sills from the outside and then captured/covered by the body skin. There is no easy way to remove those bolts, and if there is no way to remove the bolts, there are no holes in the wood to plug...thus the plan to relocate the hole in the body bracket.

as for fender mounting, if the brackets were placed in the wrong position along the sills such that the body was too far forward (rear fender brace correctly located by virtue of being bolted to the body mount/frame), and if they remained in place and they along with the body are now shifted rearward. The rear body mount is now moved back 1/2" along with the body, then the fender brace also moves back 1/2". Moving that body bracket rearward and redrilling to match the frame now throws the fender mount backwards from its correct location to the frame (this is why I think an easily made angle iron custom mount might need to be fabricated...). That may or may not be a problem, but I for one have wrestled for hours with a correctly placed brace that needed minor tweaking to make the fender sit properly (and that minor tweaking took forever). I'm not sure I'd want to summarily move a good-fitting brace backward by 1/2" and expect things to work without a bunch of bending.

With the front fender, dust apron and running board all located by the frame, and then the rear fender relying on frame located parts AND body located brace, that 1/2" discrepancy could lead to some very difficult rear fender alignment issues not unlike the hood issues found. Perhaps less so with a roadster PU, but most certainly if it was any other factory body

[Reno Speedster]

The rear fender brace is the problem. The best thing to do would be to leave the bracket in the correct place, unbolt the fender brace, slide the body to the correct position, re drill the holes for the bolts holding the fender bracket and reinstall them. This will lead to an extra visible hole in the side of the body. I could replace the sheet metal so the hole is not visible.

I think modifying the brackets is the way to go for now. But it has gotten me thinking about how one would get the sheet metal off the wood. I have not been able to find any detailed information on how the sheet metal is attached in the books I have or on line.

[Scott_Conger]

Lots of small nails

It is a big job to remove the skin...difficult to do with healthy wood

On the up-side, that piece of metal that covers the sill at the rear fender bracket is an easy fabrication, so after thinking about it, I agree on plugging the holes in the wood for that bracket, replacing the sheet metal and moving that bracket...those bolts actually go the other way...from the inside out...are easily removed...I'd forgotten about that in my earlier posts.

here is an example of where those bolts are buried up front:

[Scott_Conger]

Thinking a bit more, you might possibly find that the rear fender brace will cover the realigned, newly redrilled holes in the sheetmetal. I'm not in my barn to verify...but it would be close...

[speedytinc]

As I understand, you are concerned with the fender fit on the rod that comes thru the body. Being off 1/2 " can be compensated for (if even necessary) by a little fender radius squeeze or pull. Dont be too hasty to change the body. If I understand the problem or what I perceive as a non problem correctly. I may not.

What I can add is the example of my 23ish touring "the monster". So called because of its creators many modifications.
The body is moved back 2" on the frame to clear a Rajo head.(presumed) The rear fenders are flattened some (larger radius), but mount on the body & running boards stock positions. The rear doors just clear the fenders.
Point being, your fenders will fit without modifying the body with a little finesse.

[Scott_Conger]

John

he is not dealing with a rod that comes through the body

it being an ex-runabout, the fender iron is attached to the sill. Regardless of where the body presently sits (1/2" too far forward). The fender iron is located to the frame and not the body. Moving the body back to where it belongs will shift those fender iron holes backwards 1/2".

If you take a 2nd look at his picture, you will see a 1/2" thick block which does NOT belong there, which thrusts the body forward in the previous owner's mistaken belief that he had to do that to accomodate a steel firewall with the wrong firewall brackets. This is the entireity of his hood fit problem. So, yes, that block needs to go, and the body must be shifted rearward where it belongs.

This is what the area SHOULD look like...i.e. no extra block between the body bracket and cowl riser:

[speedytinc]

I did understand the problem of the added block. Other details I was unclear on.
I think you have things well in hand. Sorry for any added confusion.

[Reno Speedster]

My buddy Tim came by after work and we shifted the body to the correct position. I have some body bracket modification ahead, but things look/fit a lot better already. I will put some pictures up when it’s done.

[Reno Speedster]

I need to get some 7/16 bolts (not available from the hardware) to bolt the body to the frame, but I started modifying the brackets. You can see from this picture how much the hole had to move in the front body mount.

[TXGOAT2]

Bolt holes need to be a little larger than the bolts.

[Reno Speedster]

The holes in the frame and body brackets are 1/2, the bolts are 7/16.

The more I look at this, the more puzzled I get about the decisions that led up to this. He moved all the body brackets and cut a notch in the back of the hood shelves to make the body fit the wrong firewall brackets. I think he also might have cut the central hood hinge rod as it’s now a bit short. I am going to replace all the hood rods with stainless steel ones and see if I can find some replacement hood shelves. For some reason the 17-22 ones appear to be hard to find.

[TXGOAT2]

Makes sense... in a DC sort of way.
Go the long way around, waste lots of time and money, create an extensive suite of new issues, and DO NOT ADDRESS THE ORIGINAL PROBLEM, if there actually is one.

[Scott_Conger]

I would guess that your car had a wood firewall which deteriorated along with the body wood. Clever guy found a steel firewall and the problems began almost immediately when he started treating symptoms as they developed rather than the root cause at the very start.

Wrong firewall brackets are the source of many a mans frustration and are often documented on this Forum. You've just now contributed to that long line of sob stories.

glad you're working it out...BTW, just post a Want Ad for low cowl hood strips and a pair will show up

[Reno Speedster]

Yep, as a 22 it originally had a wood firewall. From what I have read, replacing wood firewalls with the metal ones was a common practice once Ford switched to them. I actually prefer the metal one. I am just glad this issue is getting g sorted out.

[Scott_Conger]

FYI - the two things that had to happen when the firewall was switched to steel was: a) cup-spacers were installed between the old brackets and new/thinner firewall, or b) as you know now, new firewall brackets with increased back-set were purchased...your previous owner knew neither of these things!

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1456565564

FWIW - I suspect your car may actually be a '23 as I think but am not certain, that your front metal body mounts for the sill were "new" in '23 and earlier than that, the sills were built quite different at the front. Not that it matters one bit...