Anything Salvageable or Scrap?

Post by **troutjohn** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:06 pm

A club member had a devastating fire that destroyed his garage and 4 antique cars. Attached is a picture of his 26 coupe. It was burned the worst. It was a very nice car with Warford and Rocky Mountain brakes. The engine turns. He does not want to restore it himself but was wondering if the car or any parts should be saved or is it all scrap? Any thoughts / opinions are welcome.

Thanks, John

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:23 pm

Scrap ?!?

The horror !!
Sure, a fine, restored car has been devastated, but I'm willing to bet 90% of it is restorable. Careful disassembly and attention to stopping corrosion which the fire itself and/or water and chemicals used in fighting the blaze causes can bring the car back to life for someone willing to tackle the project, or at least provide a wealth of usable parts for others who are in need of them.

Logistically it can be daunting for space, energy and time, but simply scrapping the whole would be a sad loss for the hobby. The same goes for the other cars that were in the fire. Condolences. I hope they were insured for value !

South park zephyr · Post by **South park zephyr** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:47 pm

I have had the opportunity to work on fire damaged vehicles in the past. The amount of corrosion that will accumulate very quickly is surprising. The heat warps the sheet metal sometimes beyond repair. The amount of damage seen in the picture is extensive. I would have concerns about every part of the car. I wouldn’t scrap it, as some parts will be viable, but get it into a covered building as soon as possible.

What a terrible shame to lose it.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:33 pm

I can understand the owner not wanting to restore it himself. Does he want it restored? If not, let the market determine what is salvageable. Some will see value in what is there. Better that than letting it go for scrap.

Allan from down under.

Post by **BRENT in 10-uh-C** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:44 pm

South park zephyr wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:47 pm
I have had the opportunity to work on fire damaged vehicles in the past. The amount of corrosion that will accumulate very quickly is surprising. The heat warps the sheet metal sometimes beyond repair. The amount of damage seen in the picture is extensive. I would have concerns about every part of the car. I wouldn’t scrap it, as some parts will be viable, but get it into a covered building as soon as possible.

What a terrible shame to lose it.

Scott is correct. The heat of the fire scorches the carbon in the steel and and at that point it pretty much makes it 'un-workable' from my experiences too.

John, I would suggest you do a favor to the entire hobby and talk your friend into destroying the vehicle where even the smallest of parts cannot be (unknowingly) filtered into another hobbyist's hands for reuse.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:58 pm

Restoring it to showroom condition would certainly be difficult. I doubt that it is beyond making runnable as a "Bran find" or barnfire car. It is hard to know if the fire was hot enough to damage the engine and differential significantly.
Often it depends on an interested individual.
Maybe a yard ornament?
Rich

Post by **JTT3** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:14 pm

…—-… …—-…/…—-…

Post by **John kuehn** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:03 pm

YES!
There are good parts that are still good at least inside the engine. Depending on how hot and long lasting the fire was the body metal is still usable if it didn’t badly warp from the heat.
The frame and differential is definitely good.
The fender brackets are still good also. As far as I know those parts aren’t being reproduced yet.

Post by **Dan Hatch** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:10 pm

Only thing I see that maybe good is the tittle, if it had one. But if there is an Insurance company involved that is ruined too.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:16 pm

There's not much to save there. The fan hub melted away. That's at least how hot it got. The only thing I'd save would be the sun visor frame. Those are really hard to find and that one looks salvageable. I wouldn't want any oyher piece of that car in any car of mine, sad to say.

Post by **kmatt2** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:28 pm

The biggest problem with fire damaged cars is that in order to put out the fire as fast as possible the fire fighters put a lot of water on the fire. This amount of water cools the car’s metal down way to fast making it brittle and warping it. It is very hard to impossible to fix this damage in order to re-restore the car. If the fire was not to hot the chassis parts can be saved but if the fire was hot enough to warp the car’s front and rear spring then many chassis parts may also be damaged past being reusable.

Post by **Billy Vrana** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:38 pm

My T went through a barn fire in 1981, in disgust it was picked up and put in a shed. It was a sharp 25 coupe. When I got into Ts I bought it in 2012 and built this out of it. I've painted quite a few tractors and 2 model Ts, personally I enjoy not having to worry about the paint. Lower your standards and up your averages,

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:56 pm

I'd want to get oil on everything ASAP. Nuts and bolts and hinges and latches on the body and fenders are loose from the heat, but they will lock up very quickly if not oiled. I'd want to get it out of the wreckage and remove all loose debris, paying attention to places where loose debris will have accumulated. A cheap garden sprayer with a mix of motor oil and diesel would do to spray everything down with. Drain the crankcase and put light oil in the cylinders. After that, I'd take the sheet metal off the chassis and see how much damage has been done to the frame and running gear. It may be minimal. Heat rises. As for the sheet metal, if protected with oil, it won't deteriorate if kept out to the weather. Taking the sheet metal assemblies apart will allow storing them in a smaller space. Some of it may be repairable, and most of it could yield parts for a rough but runnable car.

Distagon2 · Post by **Distagon2** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:07 pm

I'm with Brent on this one. Sometimes things are just a total loss. Yes maybe some engine parts, rear axle, heavy stuff might be salvageable. But that looks like it was one hot fire. Sad to see.

Post by **jiminbartow** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:38 pm

Can you post a before picture? If it were mine, I would want to try and restore it. Jim Patrick

Post by **tdump** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:49 pm

I don't quite understand Brent thinking it should be destroyed completely. The ruxtell should still be reusable, alot of parts reusable.
I wouldn't dismiss it completely.
As a former volunteer fireman,I have saw that sort of thing,only to find a book under it still having readable pages.
If there is still oil in the rear axle,the ruxstell would be usable.
The aux trans,was under all that,heat rises, if it has oil in it,should still be repairable.
Those extras are expensive and should be salvaged.
If the frame is bent bad,well,of course there are alot of chassis out there,
I do understand that destruction of the parts maintains high prices on remaining parts.

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:27 am

I'm with Matt in the previous post, heat rises, the lower in the blaze, the better are the chances of parts having survived. Sheetmetal maybe not much salvable due to warping and decarbonizing, but the frame, engine, axles etc. are likely very good for restoration still.
Important though to give the whole car a good rinse with clean water and then some kind of rust protection with a spraying of diesel, wd40 or anything lightly oily.
Then slowly take apart and evaluate what to save and what to scrap.
Hope someone picks it up as a project(s)

Post by **tdump** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:20 am

Yes,Kaiser is inline with my thinking.the sheet metal,some of it is warped and so forth,but the engine block, drive train,should be easily salvageable.
Similar or worse has been salvaged and enjoyed by 100's of hobbyist for decades,why shudder the ideas and hopes of the future generations of saving stuff just as we have?

Post by **John kuehn** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:20 am

People who have a lot of money and generally use clean, NOS parts for a repair, rebuild or restoration wouldn’t use rusted up, dirty or seemingly unsalvageable parts like the burned parts photo shows. They just don’t.
But there are people who can find use of what’s there and at least start a restoration. T’s have been restored or built up from what can be used or at least use some of the parts that are still usable.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:27 am

The sheet metal could be made into a nice parade car or just a "fun car" at modest cost. At worst, it still looks like a T, and it's still century-old Henry Ford steel, not plastic. Everything doesn't have to be a high point restoration.

Post by **AndyClary** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:30 am

While you may do an autopsy and find some usable parts there probably aren’t very many. A lot depends on how hot the fire was. Our fire storms were so hot there was nothing left of the T’s that I surveyed. The coupe in the picture didn’t get as hot as we had here.

Andy

Post by **jiminbartow** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:31 am

Maybe build a funny, warped T reminiscent of the ones demolished by Laurel and Hardy in their movies. That might be a first for this generation. They were misshapen, but some still ran even after the boys had their way with them. Jim Patrick

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:52 am

Model T guys are the world's greatest optimists!

John Codman · Post by **John Codman** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:18 am

I helped rebuild a Case forklift that went through a lumberyard fire. It looked about like the T in the OP. We replaced every hose and piece of wire in the thing. We resealed the hydraulic rams, flushed out the hydraulic system, and started it up. It ran fine and after a set of tires and some paint it was back in service for the next 15 years. I would not be too quick to dispose of the engine and mechanical stuff in the photo.

Post by **BRENT in 10-uh-C** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:51 pm

tdump wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:49 pm
I don't quite understand Brent thinking it should be destroyed completely. The ruxtell should still be reusable, alot of parts reusable.
I wouldn't dismiss it completely.
As a former volunteer fireman,I have saw that sort of thing,only to find a book under it still having readable pages.
If there is still oil in the rear axle,the ruxstell would be usable.
The aux trans,was under all that,heat rises, if it has oil in it,should still be repairable.
Those extras are expensive and should be salvaged.
If the frame is bent bad,well,of course there are alot of chassis out there,
I do understand that destruction of the parts maintains high prices on remaining parts.

Hey Mack. I am only offered my suggestion citing real-world experience of trying to salvage a customer's vehicle with sentimental value for them. I really do not wish to try debating anyone on 'what-ifs' or 'if' scenarios because often times that is not real world. I think we all do agree that heat does rise however when I looked at the above picture, it appeared to me there was quite a bit of combustibles underneath the vehicle that allowed it to "BBQ" for awhile. It was/is my opinion the heat had sufficient time to bake the items and did not necessarily rise away immediately. Again, as Dan and others have mentioned, look at the amount of heat that it took to melt the fan hub and other components, -even the radiator melted. Does anyone want to offer opinions on the 'degrees' it took ...and the length of 'BBQ' time it took to cause that radiator to completely melt?

One other thought to ponder. It has been my experiences that some folks do offer the mindset of how the inside of the engine is likely salvageable because it had oil in it, -or the transmission was in oil, -or the rear axle (-fortunately NOT a Ruckstell BTW) had oil in it. In all of these scenarios, yes they had oil inside of their respective cases HOWEVER the fallacy with this logic comes simply because these components were not submerged in oil. Using the engine for the first example, exactly what internal pieces are we suggesting can/will be salvageable? The crankshaft was definitely not submerged in oil, nor was the camshaft, connecting rods, -nor was any portion of the cylinder case. It is very likely during the worst of the fire, the internal temps of that engine were subjected to very close temperatures of what the immediate exterior of the engine components were. The same for the transmission drums. (-think about how much of the drum was submerged in oil vs. how much was sticking out.) Now consider the rear end differential pieces, the axle shafts, and the housings all were subjected to the same extreme heat without being submerged (-or protected) in any oil.

So to my original statement about doing the hobby a favor. Imagine if someone removes those rear axle shafts to salvage them, and after a good cleaning they coat them in oil. Unknowingly about any fire someone else installs them in their vehicle only to find the excessive temperatures compromised the axle and cause it to break while the hobbyist is taking his grandkids for a ride. Again, why do we even want to take a chance on negatively affecting someone else's future by trying to salvage the compromised parts all in the mindset that a 26/27 T is valuable enough to be worthy of taking a risk?? Personally, I just don't see it, but maybe I am wrong??.

5 WoodenWheels · Post by **5 WoodenWheels** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:16 pm

It will make a fine adornment on top of the scrap pile. Junk it. The 10,000 “trailer queens” taken out once a year for the Fourth of July parade will not cry for it. Or advertise it for sale here. Sounds like someone will buy it.
That’s my contribution to the internet today.
Gerrit

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:22 pm

A radiator would be highly susceptible to heat damage, as would an alloy pulley. The sheet metal would be excellent for a "rat rod" or "full custom" vehicle. Only direct examination can determine what might be salvageable from the chassis. China has plenty of strategic scrap metals. No need to be in a rush to send them more.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:25 pm

The safest way to take kids out in a century-old car is not to do so. (And be sure to check for the latest urgent, safety-related recalls and "Do not drive" announcements for your each of your new vehicles)

South park zephyr · Post by **South park zephyr** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:42 pm

If the vehicle is insured, the only way to remove parts to try and reuse, would be to retain salvage from the insurance company. I would check with the state law about this, as some states do not allow this practice. I tried to buy a a salvage car to rebuild from Wisconsin and was unable to.

Almost 30 years ago my 1968 Mustang GT convertible was destroyed in a hit and run. I was lucky that I had a stated value policy because the insurance thought it was worth very little. I was able to get the appraised value for the car, but it cost me 30 percent to retain salvage. It was luck it didn’t burn because it would have been beyond repair.

Some parts might be salvageable from the fire, but as it was stated, would you want them on a vehicle you would have a loved one ride in?
Only after an in person inspection of the car/ and or parts would a determination be able to be made as to the viability of any given part.

I have almost 40 years of auto body repair experience that have formed my opinions, but is is only my opinion.
If this was brought to my shop, I would pass

Scott

Post by **Bryant** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:12 pm

Whatever you do is up to you. if you scrap it, so be it. but if you go the salvage route, please start a thread on here with the process. I would love to follow, and it would be educational. it makes me wonder how many burnt up T parts are still in service in some of our cars? the people of the past saved everything I've heard.

Post by **BRENT in 10-uh-C** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:18 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:25 pm
The safest way to take kids out in a century-old car is not to do so. (And be sure to check for the latest urgent, safety-related recalls and "Do not drive" announcements for your each of your new vehicles)

Pat, I am sure you are saying this 'tongue in cheek' however surely we all agree there is risk in everything we do. It is all calculated.

As far as your comment on "direct examinations", some of us have X-ray equipment that we often use in our rebuilding of vintage automobiles and engines which certainly can give us an advantage however I would think that most of the readership here does not have access to that type of equipment to help them properly examine potentially compromised pieces from this vehicle. So with that said, what are you suggesting would be proper protocol for inspecting pieces from this vehicle prior to re-use??

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:33 pm

Let's be careful what we say and suggest on this forum, not just with regard to this car. When we blindly state that this or that part should still be good to use, based solely upon one small photo, without even seeing the part in front of us, and using our own uninformed judgement, just who's lives do we intend to be liable and responsible for? Be careful we suggest, someone who doesn't know any better might just listen to us and be the worse off for it. When we say for example, "the driveshaft should still be good", how do we really know that??? And yes, I know, some things are obviously good or bad, and most of us have the experience to know the difference. Those are not the situations I have in mind. If anyone here thinks I'm pointing the finger personally at them, let me say now, that I AM NOT. And by the way, I intend this message as much for myself as I do for anyone else. Please don't take offense at this.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:42 pm

If you are in any doubt about the condition of any critical part, you should replace it with new, and hope it is as substantial as the original. Or, you can take a chance on an old part that looks good. If you doubt your competence to examine any critical item, you might be well advised to consult an expert. I doubt if any qualified expert would take the risk of declaring antique car parts to be sound beyond any doubt.

Post by **BRENT in 10-uh-C** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:57 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:42 pm
If you are in any doubt about the condition of any critical part, you should replace it with new, and hope it is as substantial as the original. Or, you can take a chance on an old part that looks good. If you doubt your competence to examine any critical item, you might be well advised to consult an expert. I doubt if any qualified expert would take the risk of declaring antique car parts to be sound beyond any doubt.

Pat, your advice is spot-on ....in theory, -and in practice. Also factoring in, a part that has been thru a fire can likely be camouflaged enough with oil/grease/etc. to make a unsuspecting future hobbyist wanna purchase it from an estate sale. The issue is we all know how frugal pocketbooks will throw caution to the wind and often take chances to save a dollar. That is where this gets scary.

Well said Jerry!!

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:30 pm

Model Ts have a number of structurally critical parts that many people might not consider critical. One example would be the oil pan. Another would be the universal joint. Another would be the pinion gear and its attachment. Not to mention rear hub attachments, axles, wheel assemblies, spring hangers, tie rods, radius rod assembly and attachments, drag links, any number of critical nuts, bolts, safety wire, cotter pins, etc, front frame crossmembers and and attachments, and more.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:42 pm

I have no dog in this fight, and don't knowingly put my life on the line by driving my "T"s, but since there are apparently so many metallurgists on this forum, I'm curious:

given the option to dig an axle out of a dried lake that is surrounded in dinosaur foot prints and is heavily pitted, or reusing an axle which went through a fire, which is the safer option?

If perchance one chose the axle that was dug out of the ground, how does one know that this very axle did not at one time suffer the consequences of a fire at one time as well, and was thus abandoned to the ages?

I think knowing this would be useful, as not a day goes by that some rusty, unknown piece of near junk is traded amongst hobbyist's on this very forum, restored to some level, and put into service with zero apparent care or knowledge of it's history. When was the last time you heard anyone ask "was this in a fire at any point in its 100 year life?"

The plain reality is that unless it is SN 2500 or lower, no T on the planet is worth bringing back from devastation such as this, and the other plain reality is, that much of it can be entirely repurposed to other projects if not scrapped by the insurance company. How much of it can be reused is as open to debate. Just as there are those who would not get within 10' of a T that didn't have hydraulic brakes and seat belts, there are others who drive their stock cars at 50MPH in heavy traffic and go to great lengths to try to convince the world that they are perfectly safe doing so. I don't much support either spectrum, and fall somewhere in the sane middle of those two extremes.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:05 pm

Are we putting the cart before the horse? Yes all of what has been said is true but.............
Everything must be retrieved before a decision on any specific item being salvageable or not. For sure the longer one looks at it the less the possibility.
Model T have survived the elements, rodents, pigeon droppings, collapsed barns, car wrecks, and who knows what else...
--
--
Most of what I see, if it fails use for a Model T reuse, is 100% repurposed as art.

Post by **jiminbartow** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:13 pm

I’d like to see more pictures of the coupe to see why the top roof frame is so misshapen. Jim Patrick

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Wed Feb 15, 2023 6:31 am

jiminbartow wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:13 pm
I’d like to see more pictures of the coupe to see why the top roof frame is so misshapen. Jim Patrick

Aside from being nearly melted, it's very likely that some of the burning building fell on it.

Post by **John kuehn** » Wed Feb 15, 2023 8:34 am

To sum things up, has anyone on this thread ACTUALLY SEEN IN PERSON the damaged and burned cars?
Do pictures, opinions of pictures and judgements of things not seen in person actually tell the complete story of what can or cannot be salvageable?
And NO this isn’t about you knowing what an insurance company would do. They would claim it’s a total loss and its needs to hauled to the nearest scrapper.

Just wondering so speak up and have you made a judgement.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:41 am

OP asked for advice based on the picture and story outline. More pictures would allow for more informed advice.

OP: "Any thoughts / opinions are welcome."

Post by **TRDxB2** » Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:24 pm

Most salvageable opinions are based on their personal end use of it.
As a restorable Model T doubtful. Some parts likely
As a body for a Rat Rod very possible - depends on the popularity of them in the area. There is always one looking for a deal.
As Yard Art, again depends on a vision

Post by **Bryant** » Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:13 pm

then there is the possibility of it becoming a tractor

Post by **jiminbartow** » Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:41 pm

In that last picture is a very valuable brass, nickel plated tall radiator shell that could sell for $600.00 or more. The owner could remove and sell it and the garden art with the rusted radiator would still basically look the same without the shell. Jim Patrick

Post by **tdump** » Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:31 pm

the 1 in the flower garden looks a heck of alot better than anything I started with.
And I just want Brent to know I was not trying to be mean or anything in my comments, I have just started with so much less and have really enjoyed the results of my hard work and I hope that others are able to afford to enter into the Model T hobby thru used parts and the help from folks here as I have.

I couldn't help but reflect on this thread while I was eating awhile ago.
I got to thinking about all the cars restored before the internet, those award winning cars that were done in the 50's thru the early 90's and how many parts were found in gulleys and such and used on them and are still running today.
No original used T part could be much newer than 90 years old.Alot can happen to the metal in a axle or trans drums that were never near a fire.
Common sense will take affect on some stuff. If you pickup something up like a crankshaft and it is bent,discolored of course you wouldn't use it.

Post by **BobP** » Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:33 pm

I have a question, was it an electrical fire? Most are. I talked to a Minnesota Fire Marshall 2 years ago. A large portion of garage fires containing old cars are caused by poor extension cords running battery chargers, cheap battery tenders and small battery chargers that people think are tenders and they burn out from over use. New 6 volt batteries are cheaper than a fire. always unhook your battery. If your car is in very cold storage put the battery in a warmer place. It makes me feel real bad looking at burnt cars, Thanks, Bob.

frontyboy · Post by **frontyboy** » Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:25 am

I had the opportunity to disassemble a couple of model t motors from cars that were in a building fire. These car got so hot when the motors were opened up the babbit had melted out of the center main and number 3 rod.

just sayin'

frontyboy

Post by **troutjohn** » Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:12 pm

Thank you to everyone who replied with comments and opinions. They were very helpful to the owner.

Someone asked about how the fire started. The owner was working on the car and put gas in it. He cleaned up gas that he spilled with a rag and put it in the running board. He then reached into the trunk and pulled a muscle in his ribs. He was in such pain he left the garage for the house and closed the door of the garage. The garage is heated with a propane heater (built in). When the heater came on the fire started.

Follow up on the cars. Several local Model T owners and club members have expressed interest in the cars for parts to complete their projects. This has been cleared with insurance so not all is wasted or scrap.

Thanks again to the Forum and members - what a tremendous resource!

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:16 pm

I don't use any kind of open flame heater in my barn.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:21 pm

John

the insurance company's position to allow some salvage is somewhat unusual.

Knowing which company would consider this sort of thing would be most useful for those wondering who they might wish to insure with...thank you

Post by **BRENT in 10-uh-C** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:24 pm

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:21 pm
John

the insurance company's position to allow some salvage is somewhat unusual.

Knowing which company would consider this sort of thing would be most useful for those wondering who they might wish to insure with...thank you

Scott, I do know the two biggies kinda allow this. While the insurance company does not specifically "clear" the owner for salvaging, they do allow the owner to retain ownership after the claim. Hagerty offers a small add-on to the premium called 'Cherished Salvage' in which the insured gets to retain ownership of the vehicle, -and with an unencumbered (-i.e.: not a salvage) title. Grundy offers something similar in that the Insured has first right of refusal to buy back the damaged vehicle at salvage value. My guess is other underwriters offer something similar.

My experience with both of these are just as an outsider looking in as my customer brings their vehicle to me to be repaired after a casualty. In one incident, my customer was in an accident and he only had his vehicle insured for $40k. To repair the damage exceeded that amount however my customer was insured with Hagerty and had the Cherished Salvage policy on the vehicle. The underwriter paid the full $40,000 to my customer and allowed him to keep the car and the title. The irony was Hagerty insures vehicles that are in the process of a restoration, so they turned around and re-insured the vehicle on the same policy once he provided Hagerty pictures and documentation that we were re-restoring the customer's vehicle.

I had a case of a '58 Buick that had rolled out of a garage and hit a tree. The damage repair costs exceeded 80% of the $20k the vehicle was insured for, and so they allowed him to buy the vehicle back however the underwriter listed the car as having $5,000 of salvage value. My customer received $15k and was able to keep the vehicle however the title was returned with a branded title as a part of the settlement.

I am going to chase a rabbit here and offer some advice as seen from the repair shop's view. You cannot believe how many vehicles I have seen come thru my business where the car owner had undervalued (i.e.: under insured) their vehicle. I first noticed it back when Hurricane Katrina put so many collector cars under water. These hobbyists would place a value of $10k on a car, and when the claim was made, they were all too willing to pay the $10k and take the vehicle which would bring $5k or more at a salvage auction to a street rodder. Many of the hobbyists had sentimental attachment to their vehicle and the insurance company was holding fast to their agreement that if it was a total loss, they would payout the agreed amount however the title had to be surrendered. Even a minor damage claim can cost quite a bit if it must be professionally repaired. About a year ago, a local had a '26 Runabout that he had just purchased and was learning to drive. As he was pulling it into the garage, he became confused and hit a tool box with the front end of the car. It 'killed' both front fenders, one headlight, the radiator was pushed into the fan, the front radius rod was bent, and it tweaked the mount on the bottom of the oil pan that the radius rod ball socketed into. We wrote the estimate to straighten the fenders, repair the front axle and radius rod, straighten the hood, R&R the engine and install a replacement oil pan, and a few other areas of paint work where flying debris from the tool box landed on the cowl, -and to replace the top where something from the ceiling fell on the top and punctured a hole in the leatherette. All items totalled, the invoice was nearly $18k for parts, materials, labor & taxes. Folks here often forget that labor at a qualified repair shop are in the $80+ per hour range, and paint material prices have escalated to the point that seems almost unbelievable.

Maybe Rob can weigh in with his expertise also (I know he doesn't underwrite auto policies but he understand the insurance biz), but my advice is increasing your agreed value of your car does not raise the premiums hardly any. It is never good to find yourself underinsured should you need to make a claim. Also, everyone should inquire about add-ons such as Cherished Salvage.

Post by **tdump** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:44 pm

I have Grundy on my T pickup, I think I valued it at 10,000 . It is titled as a specially constructed replica 1923 Model T truck,which I figured would seriously erode it's value as a Model T or as a vintage vehicle.although it accomplishes the biggest goal,of driving it legally.
Is that something I should rethink as in value?

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 1:07 pm

Brent

thank you for that view of the process and the time it took to document for us. Learned a lot of things that I didn't know.

Post by **Wayne Mims** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 1:32 pm

I started with a whole lot less than that several times and managed to put together a decent running model T heck one of my engines came out of the Brazos river doesn't have to be show quality just have to look half as decent and run. There are some guys out there that wants it ! I've seen several model t that look like rust buckets without no paint new upholstery and top and get a lot of attention anyway don't scrap it there's somebody that wants it

model t do it with there feet

Post by **TRDxB2** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 2:54 pm

Simple answer: How much would you pay me to dig it out and haul it away or would expect me to pay you to do take it away?

Post by **jiminbartow** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 7:18 pm

If the owner is willing to sell it for the current scrap value per pound, determine how much the steel weighs and multiply the weight by the current scrap metal price per pound. This should be a fair price. I looked up the current cost of scrap automotive steel and it is currently $155.00/ton or .0775/lb. The weight x $0.0775 will give you the scrap metal cost of the coupe (for instance, 1,000 lb. X $0.0775 = $77.50) that will make it worth your time, fuel costs and rental equipment costs to dig it out and haul it away. Jim Patrick

PS. The Encyclopedia says the shipping weight of a 1926 coupe is 1,860 lbs. Subtract from that, any non-steel items such as wood, rubber, glass, the battery, radiator and melted sheet steel such as the thin trunk flooring and the total viable steel should be around 1,000 lbs. to 1,300 lbs. Other’s guesstimates will vary.

Post by **tdump** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 7:25 pm

Cheap enough,7 cent a pound,I would take it for that if it were closer.

Post by **troutjohn** » Sun Feb 19, 2023 3:41 pm

In answer to Scott's question the insurance company is Hagerty.

John

Post by **TRDxB2** » Sun Feb 19, 2023 4:25 pm

Is it not true that when a claim is filed & settled with an Insurance Company for a totaled vehicle, the Insurance company then owns said vehicle. In some cases the may sell it back to the owner. So whats the Insurance Company going to do?

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sun Feb 19, 2023 4:36 pm

Frank

If the insurance company can sell the car back to the previous owner, then by definition, the insurance company owns the car after the payout to settle the claim.

It's a small point, but an insurance company cannot sell something that it does not own.

John

thank you for the information