Slow Speed Pedal Shaft

[ernieh247]

I am a new Model T owner and have a question about the slow speed pedal shaft. I am replacing the band liners on my 1925 Runabout. The previous owner had removable ends on the bands but they were installed with the removable ear on the right side. Also the slow speed pedal shaft extends all the way through the hogs head into the adjustment hole on the right side. I removed the adjusting screw but couldn't get the spring off. I removed the hogs head to get everything apart. I saw someplace that I need to cut the slow speed pedal shaft so that I won't have to remove the hogs head the next time I need to replace the band liners. Does that sound correct and if so how much do I cut off?
Thanks,
Ernie

[Dan Hatch]

There is a Service Bulletin about this . I think it is in Service Manual also I think.

[Scott_Conger]

Ernie

if you are putting Kevlar bands in, you would always want to install them with the hog's head off so as to ensure that after making sure the bands are perfectly round, they don't get distorted. If you're just stuffing in cotton lined bands, it's not so important.

second, if you have an earlier car with an aluminum hog's head, I recommend that you do NOT cut off the low speed pedal shaft as using the shorter shaft means it is not supported on both ends and undue wear occurs on the hogs head.

Importantly, and not something you asked about but need to know: the low speed "notch" and pedal support should always be inspected for PERFECT operation, or replaced, while the hog's head is off. For low band to engage, the shaft must move over to squeeze the band closed...if the ramp or notch are worn, then it won't close enough to operate without slipping and you will be forced to run the band "too tight" even when loose. This is a very, very bad thing. Something to really inspect and consider fixing now.

welcome to the hobby...have fun and be safe

[ernieh247]

Thank you for the responses,
I was orginally planning on putting in cotton liners because this is my first time installing and adjusting bands so I thought the cotton liners would be a little more forgiving if I make a mistake. I was at the McPherson Winter Clinic and they said the kevlar were much better liners but be very careful about making sure they are adjusted properly or you could crack a drum. I cannot find cotton liners anywhere so I believe my only option is wood or kevlar. Haven't heard much good about wood so I will go with the kevlar and do my best to adjust them properly. I will look for the service bulletin about cutting the shaft.

[TRDxB2]

I am a new Model T owner and have a question about the slow speed pedal shaft. I am replacing the band liners on my 1925 Runabout. The previous owner had removable ends on the bands but they were installed with the removable ear on the right side. Also the slow speed pedal shaft extends all the way through the hogs head into the adjustment hole on the right side. I removed the adjusting screw but couldn't get the spring off. I removed the hogs head to get everything apart. I saw someplace that I need to cut the slow speed pedal shaft so that I won't have to remove the hogs head the next time I need to replace the band liners. Does that sound correct and if so how much do I cut off?
Thanks,
Ernie

I don't think you need to cut anything, the cutting has to do with the length of the shafts early vs late transmission
The removable ears go on the left side. pedal side (original owner had on the wrong side)
Maybe these will help but...read first https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/4 ... 1393078826

[Scott_Conger]

Welcome and OUTSTANDING that you went to the Clinic!

you have a MUCH better understanding as to what you're getting into than the average new owner

review the info that Dan Hatch is sending you to, and for info, here is a link showing the original shaft with the hollow-end adjuster vs the shortened shaft with the "stub" end shaft: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1392661455

you can cut your old shaft off, but will have to either buy a new adjuster shaft or affix a stub into the old hollow adjuster shaft

service bulletins cover this as Dan said...see page 18: https://www.cimorelli.com/mtdl/service_ ... efault.htm

[ernieh247]

I read the information from Dan, Thank You! Since I am going to put in kevlar bands and they need to be installed with the hogs head off maybe it's best I don't cut anything.

[Scott_Conger]

Ernie

those bands gotta be roundroundround!

and you need PERFECT pedal supports/ramps on/in the hog's head

and you need to know how to drive it correctly!

it will be time well spent locating someone who knows how to drive a T to help you learn. Kevlar is wonderful if you have a fully rebuilt hog's head and drive the car correctly. It can ruin the hobby for you very quickly if you don't.

there are many folks who have driven many thousands of miles over decades , with barely a need to adjust Kevlar (I am one of those folks)…and there are some folks who have blown up multiple transmissions with it...I just don't want you to be the latter case, so go slowly and thoughtfully with the preparation and installation.

[ernieh247]

Thank You Scott,
I will do my best. I would really like to start out with cotton for a learning curve but haven't been able to find them so I will give kevlar my best shot!!
Thanks,
Ernie

[ernieh247]

One other thought I would like everyone's opinion on. The man I bought my car from inherited it from his grandfather. The grandfather was going to make his own cotton liners from cotton belts. They gave me the cotton belts with the car. Has anyone ever tried making their own cotton liners?

[John kuehn]

Good to know you’re learning about Model T’s 100 year old technology. The clinic, reading the Ford service manual, MTFCA specific manuals for different aspects of repairing a T and learning by watching what’s going on at the clinic is a BIG plus.
By doing this you’re learning what NOT to do when working on a T! Keep the Ford service manual by your chair and refer to it from time to time.
Good luck! You’re on your way!

As far as the transmission linings are concerned it depends on what type they are and how they are woven. If they came from belting that was used in gins, machinery that was belt driven they MIGHT be ok.
But again it’s the WEAVING in the belting that really important. The original cotton linings weren’t all that bad. And it depends how they are installed and most importantly HOW YOU DRIVE that usually determines how long they last.

What type of linings to use is a BIG issue with Model T owners and be prepared to get a lot of different opinions!

[Allan]

Follow Scott's advice. Additionally, you can check for wear in the pedal ramps by operating the pedal and measuring the pedal travel. Pull the pedal back as far is it goes, and measure how far it travels before it engages the ramp. Ideally it is 1.5" of free play. This free play is necessary for finding and holding neutral with your foot.

On our RHD Canadian sourced cars, correcting excess freeplay caused by ramp wear is a headache. While new bolt on ramps are available, the corresponding ramp on the pedal is part of the forging. To rectify the wear the pedal must be removed from the shaft. The worn ramps are rebuilt with weld. Then comes the tiresome job of re-forming the ramp. It spirals, and constant filing, blueing, grinding, blueing is needed to make it conform to the new ramp. At the same time, both sides need to engage the ramp at the same time.It is painstaking work, but the reward is in the way it correctly operates.

I am not familiar with LHD units. Perhaps you use bolt on ramps and pined on notches, which would make the job far simpler.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.,

[Art M]

Last week I removed the hogshead from my 23 touring. I had no problem leaving the low pedal attached to the hogshead. I stood on the floor and reached through the right side door to lift it out. I didn't remove the exhaust manifold but I plan to remove it before installation. Removal took less than 1 hour.

I have several questions about installing the hogshead

1. How far should the driveshaft be moved rearward.

2. What is the best method to move the driveshaft/axle

3. I have some old brass rivets that have only 3/8 reach.
This seems short. The reason for changing the cotton bands is steel rivets were used when the linings were riveted in 1977. I plan to use Scandinavian cotton linings again. What is the length of currently used rivets.

4. Several months ago there was a recommended method to align the clutch fork with the groove while setting the hogshead in place. What is the trick.

Art Mirtes

[Allan]

Art, I use a ratchet tie down to pull the axle assembly back. One end goes around the rear cross member, the other hooks inside one of the radius bolt nuts at the front. You don't need much. The idea is to open up the gap just a bit so the hogshead can be lowered into place with as few impediments as possible. You are wise to pull the exhaust manifold too.

A few weeks ago I posted photos of a device I made to make the job of lowering the cover into place so much easier. Others may be able to find it for you.

The clutch fork holding tool was was a rubber "clip" which went over the fork shaft and held the fork in an upright position. Before I saw that elegant solution, I used to tie dental floss around the fork and then around the fork rod. It does a good job, and if you lose a bit you can't get out, it doesn't really matter.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.

[Art M]

Allen, thanks for the reply. I thought I might have to remove the rear spring shackles to move the axle. Your technique saves a lot of time.

Art Mirtes

[Allan]

Art, I found a photo of the fitting jig I made from some scrap. The angle irons sit on the frame rails. The wire goes in the two top holes for the inspection plate. The multiple loops of strap allow for controlled lowering. The lock on pliers allow you to hold it at any height while you align the clutch fork and pedal shafts in the bands. No need to fight the weight of the thing. I could almost do the job on my own, but help is good.
Allan from down under.

[Allan]

Photo.

[Art M]

Allen,
Thanks for posting the above picture of your rig for supporting the hogshead during its installation. I am planning to build one. It's a simple no cost solution to a complex problem.

[ABoer]

This is my helper with the Hogs Head .
Toon

[speedytinc]

Good job!
I dig the simplicity.