Commutator Wire Retainer
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
-
Topic author - Posts: 892
- Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:28 pm
- First Name: Bruce
- Last Name: Brakke
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 coupe
- Location: Ames, Iowa
Commutator Wire Retainer
Commutator wire retainers are shown in Lang's catalog (5033B) page 77. Should I use these? They hold the wires, but what are they attached to?
-
- Posts: 6262
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:56 pm
- First Name: Frank
- Last Name: Brandi
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Speedsters (1919 w 1926 upgrades), 1926 (Ricardo Head)
- Location: Moline IL
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
With more pictures https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3 ... 1381766989
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
-
- Posts: 457
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:39 pm
- First Name: Val
- Last Name: Soupios
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '10 touring, '12 touring, '13 hack, '14 runabout, '14 touring, '14 speedster, '22 centerdoor, '27 touring
- Location: Jupiter Florida
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
They just fit under the nuts that retain the wires. They were on my unrestored '22 Centerdoor so I guess Henry thought they were a good idea but since they fell apart when I replaced the wiring harness and I didn't replace them I guess they are not necessary. I don't have them on any of my other cars either.
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
You certainly need these installed as they are there for a reason.
Factory #2124A Commutator Wire Terminal Retainer introduced in 1921 and two are required. This part addresses a common problem with Timer to coilbox wiring (near the Timer) chafing and shorting to adjacent bare metal and also forms the wire routing and relieves the strain on the wires to the timer terminals which break from constantly moving when the timer case rotates.
If you don't use them you risk the possibility to develop a short to ground in the timer wiring because these are not installed the coil will exceed its duty cycle and cause the problem shown in the attached photo. When the tar boils out the top of the counterbore on the wooden coil top it also jams the points closed exacerbating the heating process. Don't use them at your peril.
Ron Patterson
Factory #2124A Commutator Wire Terminal Retainer introduced in 1921 and two are required. This part addresses a common problem with Timer to coilbox wiring (near the Timer) chafing and shorting to adjacent bare metal and also forms the wire routing and relieves the strain on the wires to the timer terminals which break from constantly moving when the timer case rotates.
If you don't use them you risk the possibility to develop a short to ground in the timer wiring because these are not installed the coil will exceed its duty cycle and cause the problem shown in the attached photo. When the tar boils out the top of the counterbore on the wooden coil top it also jams the points closed exacerbating the heating process. Don't use them at your peril.
Ron Patterson
-
- Posts: 5370
- Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Gregush
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 cutdown PU, 1948 F2 Ford flat head 6 pickup 3 speed
- Location: Portland Or
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
The 1928 parts book shows them for 1921 to 1927. I have yet to see one in the wild! lol
Maybe back in the day when these cars were being driven every day, chafing on the wire behind the timing rod might have been an issue, not so much today.
Maybe back in the day when these cars were being driven every day, chafing on the wire behind the timing rod might have been an issue, not so much today.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
1925 Cut down pickup
1948 Ford F2 pickup

1925 Cut down pickup
1948 Ford F2 pickup
-
- Posts: 3743
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:53 am
- First Name: Tim
- Last Name: Wrenn
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13 Touring, '26 "Overlap" Fordor
- Location: Ohio
- Board Member Since: 2019
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
If ya don't use them as I don't for no real.reason, inspect, inspect, inspect! I check things over frequently and thoroughly during oil changes when the car is up on the lift.
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
Tim
If a timer terminal wire shorts to ground and you drive 25 miles on a warm day one of your coils will look like the photo I supplied.
Good luck
Ron Patterson
If a timer terminal wire shorts to ground and you drive 25 miles on a warm day one of your coils will look like the photo I supplied.
Good luck
Ron Patterson
-
- Posts: 5370
- Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Gregush
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 cutdown PU, 1948 F2 Ford flat head 6 pickup 3 speed
- Location: Portland Or
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
I did not see your post till after I came back from looking up the dates in the parts book and posted mine.Ron Patterson wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:37 pmTim
If a timer terminal wire shorts to ground and you drive 25 miles on a warm day one of your coils will look like the photo I supplied.
Good luck
Ron Patterson
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
1925 Cut down pickup
1948 Ford F2 pickup

1925 Cut down pickup
1948 Ford F2 pickup
-
- Posts: 4726
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:24 pm
- First Name: john
- Last Name: karvaly
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14/15 wide track roadster. 23 touring, 27 roadster pickup, 20ish rajo touring
- Location: orange, ca
- Board Member Since: 2020
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
I must say I was ignorant to the issue/part until recently. Full credit to this forum.
I dont run roller timers. If I did, I would use this insulator part. Why not?
Henry deemed it necessary enough to bear the cost(must be necessary. Remember cutting bits of a penny per car was an art form)
& its cheap insurance against shorting.
I dont run roller timers. If I did, I would use this insulator part. Why not?
Henry deemed it necessary enough to bear the cost(must be necessary. Remember cutting bits of a penny per car was an art form)
& its cheap insurance against shorting.
-
Topic author - Posts: 892
- Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:28 pm
- First Name: Bruce
- Last Name: Brakke
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 coupe
- Location: Ames, Iowa
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
Can these retainers be used on a New Day timer?
-
- Posts: 1863
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:20 pm
- First Name: Robert
- Last Name: Jablonski
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Runabout
- Location: New Jersey
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
I'm sure these wire retainers properly installed can be used on all timers.... I made my own retainers out of an old leather belt.
-
- Posts: 4726
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:24 pm
- First Name: john
- Last Name: karvaly
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14/15 wide track roadster. 23 touring, 27 roadster pickup, 20ish rajo touring
- Location: orange, ca
- Board Member Since: 2020
-
- Posts: 521
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:30 pm
- First Name: Mike
- Last Name: Kossor
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Touring
- Location: Kenilworth, NJ 07033
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
Timer wire retainers and/or a 4A fuse in series with the coil box power wire are good safe guards against wiring faults. That said, Wow! How the heck was that coil adjusted so the duty cycle caused thermal runaway and melt down? Gosh!If you don't use them you risk the possibility to develop a short to ground in the timer wiring because these are not installed the coil will exceed its duty cycle and cause the problem shown in the attached photo.
A properly adjusted Model T coil, tuned for equal and consistent Firing Time, will NOT overheat or melt the tar out if left buzzing continuously on 6V or even 12V battery for a long time in my experience. Here is how I know: viewtopic.php?t=20556#p157543
I-Timer + ECCT Adjusted Coils = Best Model T Engine Performance Possible!
www.modeltitimer.com www.modeltecct.com
www.modeltitimer.com www.modeltecct.com
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
Tar boiling out the top of a Model T ford ignition coil is only tangentially related to coil point adjustment.
As the self appointed Model T ignition system expert (and pitchman for your products on this forum) perhaps someday you will figure it out?
As the self appointed Model T ignition system expert (and pitchman for your products on this forum) perhaps someday you will figure it out?
-
- Posts: 521
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:30 pm
- First Name: Mike
- Last Name: Kossor
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Touring
- Location: Kenilworth, NJ 07033
Re: Commutator Wire Retainer
So says the legendary FP forum pitchman from days of ol who goes by the moniker "Coilman"...... I DID figure it out! By actually studying and testing Model T coil operation rather extensively. Did you bother to view the link I posted? 102F after 10 minutes buzzing continuously.As the self appointed Model T ignition system expert (and pitchman for your products on this forum) perhaps someday you will figure it out?
Proper coil adjustment really is not all that complicated and would be happy to discuss the technical details and dispel the myths further for the benefit of others here if you can leave the personal animus and snide comments out.
I-Timer + ECCT Adjusted Coils = Best Model T Engine Performance Possible!
www.modeltitimer.com www.modeltecct.com
www.modeltitimer.com www.modeltecct.com