BAD ROD ADVICE

[Art Ebeling]

I looked at a 26 sedan today that a new owner had questions about a knocking noise. This car is a recent purchase of a "full restoration" that had a knocking engine after less than three miles of driving. The number two rod babbit is beat out and I am wondering about cleaning up the crankshaft rod journal. I checked the journal for size and it is standard. Does this rod journal look like it will clean up? I can't feel any scratches and I think what looks dull is babbit material that I will have to clean off. I will check the other rods and check the internal oil tube, maybe the mains. Any suggestions or other advice? Thanks, Art

[TrentB]

I have seen something similar to this in an engine that had been run without oil.

[TXGOAT2]

You can clean off the babbitt and polish the journal, then carefully check it for roundness, taper, and size. The replacement rod can be fitted for size, if the journal is an off-size, but the the journal must be round and straight. There are a number of reasons why the bearing could have failed.

[Art Ebeling]

You can clean off the babbitt and polish the journal, then carefully check it for roundness, taper, and size. The replacement rod can be fitted for size, if the journal is an off-size, but the the journal must be round and straight. There are a number of reasons why the bearing could have failed.

How would you clean and polish the journal? Thanks, Art

[TXGOAT2]

"Crocus cloth" is often recommended for polishing crankshaft journals. Something like emery cloth with light oil would probably work OK. I'd use a pocket knife to gently scrape away the smeared babbitt. Scotchbrite might work to remove babbitt.

[Daisy Mae]

Sure looks like a run dry bearing to me, being a new rebuild maybe clearance set too tight ?
I'd certainly be pulling every cap to check/verify.

[speedytinc]

You can clean off the babbitt and polish the journal, then carefully check it for roundness, taper, and size. The replacement rod can be fitted for size, if the journal is an off-size, but the the journal must be round and straight. There are a number of reasons why the bearing could have failed.

How would you clean and polish the journal? Thanks, Art

Long strip of fine emery cloth. Work like doing a shoe shine. Will polish about 1/3 @ a time. Rotate crank to several positions for an even polish.

More interesting is WHY did this happen? Normally oil loss takes out #1. Definitely check the inner oil funnel/tube.
You will need to check all the other rods for babbit condition & contact.

Restoration?? Who? Credentials? The corner gas station guy?
The answer to this would help decide whether or not to do a complete teardown. Was this a freak incident or the tip of the iceberg in a poor rebuild? Many more issues to follow? Never be able to trust the T waiting for the next mistake to make itself known.
Talk to the "restorer"

Tight piston? Tight wrist pin? Bent rod? I have yet to purchase a set of rods or remove a set from a motor that didnt have at least 1 bent enough to not need straightening in a set!! TRUST NO ONE.
Sorry to be such a bummer, but I have had to re-rebuild quite a few builds from incompetent T mechanics. Its all in the details.

[speedytinc]

Sure looks like a run dry bearing to me, being a new rebuild maybe clearance set too tight ?
I'd certainly be pulling every cap to check/verify.

Then I would want to look @ the mains.

[michaelb2296]

Pictures #4 & #5 confuse me. Dirt, delamination, dirty piston where the wrist pin is. Doesnt add up.

But, maybe poor lighting? Idk. Im not there.

Question, with everything torqued down tight, could you easily hand crank through all 4 pistons (up/down) or was it too tight?

If no movement from the start, then delamination will occur.
I.e. pop/drag and go and hope for best is probably not the best solution.

If you can fix just the one thing and the other journals/rods look great then i would make sure the new #2 rod/piston/rings/journal rotate freely, fully torqued , without binding (<- a big deal) and try again.

We all learn through mistakes but as others have questioned maybe the rebuild was done by a good intentions person with little experience? It happens. Even if they are an EXPERT problems/mistakes can happen! Don’t ask me how i know…

Tight , is no good.

[Adam]

It is a typical “burnt out bearing”. The babbitt instantly liquifies, slings out, and solidifies. It is usually from too tight clearance OR too little oil (or too much load on the engine). The inside oil line may be plugged or oil level too low. Maybe the babbitt quality is poor, but more than likely it was low oil, plugged oil line, or heavy loading (lugging the engine).

[NoelChico]

I had a No. 2 rod that looked like that several years ago. A week before the Hamilton tour I tightened up some slightly loose rods, put it together, and had a rod knock at about 30 seconds of running. Maybe I forgot to put my usual "motor honey" on the rod cap on re-assembly. Maybe I adjusted it too tight. But I DID forget to put half a quart of oil in the filler, filling the dips on start-up.

[Art Ebeling]

Thanks for the answers. I don't know who restored this vehicle and I asked the owner if he thought he could get any help from the person he bought it from and he did not think he could. I will continue to disassemble and check everything. My main concern now is to try to determine the cause and clean up the crank. My personal opinion is that the restoration consisted of paint and gaskets.

[TXGOAT2]

Do you know how much the engine has run since it was rebuilt, if it was rebuilt?
Another thought: Starting a new or rebuilt engine that has thick oil in the crank case in cold weather can result in oil starvation to bearings.

[Adam]

Use of thick assembly lubes and the presence of grease inside the engine can also seal up the areas that provide oil and cause a bearing to run dry and fail. Grease and some assembly lubes do not mix readily with oil in engines that do not have a pressurized oil system.

[big2bird]

This one is a tough call. Fluke or more issues?
Tough hand to play.

[Art Ebeling]

I dug into this deeper this morning removing the other three rod caps. The babbit looks good but none of the rods have shims and there are file marks on the caps. I might plastigage them but I am leaning towards four new rods. I think someone has just filed them to fit. This “rebuilt” engine also has two piece valves. What are your opinions? Thanks Art

[big2bird]

Nobody rebuilds an engine with 2 piece valves.

I would pull it with that tid bit.

[TXGOAT2]

No shims and file marks indicate a worn engine with a shoddy "overhaul". In recent decades, any decent overhaul or valve service job would include replacing composite valves. Ford disowned the composite valves around 1926.

[Art Ebeling]

I want to verify that these are two piece valves. They have the two holes on top. Art

[big2bird]

Yes........

[speedytinc]

Verified....

[RajoRacer]

And, this is what can happen !!!

[Mark Gregush]

What I would call an Ice Cream restoration, looks pretty on the outside to go get Ice Cream or local 4th of July parade with the grandkids, but underneath nada was done to the car.

[John kuehn]

I think this rebuilt T got a nice repaint and body cleanup looking at the pictures.

The engine was “freshened up” and not necessarily rebuilt sometime in the past and that’s about it.

Looks like it has the original valves and the rods filed for a better fit up. But if it’s got the older 2 piece valves I don’t think the engine was renewed or rebuilt.

[Art Ebeling]

Would you use X’d rods or non X’d rods? Art

[TXGOAT2]

As far as I know, Ford didn't use X'd rods. They did describe the correct way to finish new babbitt.

[big2bird]

Would you use X’d rods or non X’d rods? Art

I would use X rods with scoops.

[J and M Machine]

With the amount of dirty oil discoloration in the engine I doubt it came apart for a thorough rebuild.
The connecting rod wasn't tinned as babbitt needs tin to fuse to as babbitt doesn't stick to steel.

I would recommend you go through the engine methodically as i doubt anything has been done to it other than a spray can paint job to the block.
We always see this type of rebuild when they spend all the money on the body but "Don't Open the Hood"!

[John kuehn]

This T was sold to the person that Art E. knows took the advice that it was restored by the seller. Since the body looks it was at least being close to ‘restored’ what about the differential and front end?
The engine will probably have to be pulled and checked out along with the transmission.
In the long run that’s the best option.
Maybe the seller/rebuilder sold the car thinking that the mechanical part was OK but it really makes you wonder. I don’t have a machine shop or rebuilt scores of T engines but only 4 but when I noticed the 2 piece valves that was a dead giveaway the seller didn’t know much about T engines.

[Art Ebeling]

I have been using the word "rebuilt", the owner clarified that and told me he was not told it was rebuilt but restored and gone thru. All in all it looks like a nice car. Art

[speedytinc]

I have been using the word "rebuilt", the owner clarified that and told me he was not told it was rebuilt but restored and gone thru. All in all it looks like a nice car. Art

......... with another $6,000 in mechanical work.

This situation is all too common.
But, that's the way I like to buy a personal car.
Ill do the mechanics & be able to rely on the machine for a lifetime + of service.

[TXGOAT2]

After a proper rebuild, the new owner will no doubt have more $ in the car than "market". However it will be a reliable car with a long mechanical life expectancy that could be expected, with reasonable care, to provide many, many miles of reliable service with minimal further expense.

[speedytinc]

My advice, which I have shared with several would be buyers, assume a complete engine overhaul, absent of conclusive proof otherwise, pay accordingly. That prices the prettiest T's in the $6-8K range. Add the extra $6K for the rebuild. You are in for $12k. You still may not be able to recoup all your investment in $, but you will be ahead factoring in the fun & experience of ownership.